<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">We could have been playing a tanking Bucks team at home all year? Juwan played ok, not great (4-12, 3 turnovers), and this was about as unimpressive a win as it gets. Not surprised you thought otherwise, though.</div> Are you ignoring the fact that we actually INCREASED our lead after halftime (when Juwan started). According to you, we were supposed to lose a significant amount of defense with Juwan starting? Well um, I'm sorry Durvasa, but that unfortunatley didn't hold up. We DOMINATED during that stretch. I actually WATCHED the game, trust me I know
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Are you ignoring the fact that we actually INCREASED our lead after halftime (when Juwan started). According to you, we were supposed to lose a significant amount of defense with Juwan starting?</div> Absolutely. Beating the Bucks at home when they're sitting key players for more pingpong balls is not "proof" otherwise. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well um, I'm sorry Durvasa, but that unfortunatley didn't hold up. We DOMINATED during that stretch. I actually WATCHED the game, trust me I know</div> No, you watched the scoreboard. I watched the game, and we didn't play well. If that's how we played all year, we'd barely be a .500 team right now. If we play the next few games without Chuck, that will be a much better test. We'll see how our starting group does there, ok? I just love your vastly different standards for Juwan and Chuck. If we beat the Bucks at home in a single game, that's proof we're better with Juwan. But when the point differential of our starting group (with Chuck) leads all 5-man combinations for the season, that doesn't prove anything.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In a time where teams are tryna get everybody healthy for the playoffs, is it really neccesary to play ur starters in a blow out? If that's not bad enough, Howard left the game with a banged knee In my opinion, these are the little things that prevent JVG from bein a "great" coach in this league. A "great" coach doesn't risk a silly injury by leaving his starters out in a blow out game. Another wreckless decision by JVG</div> I agree I understand him trying to get them ready for the playoffs and everything, but a couple extra minutes is a silly risk to take....
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Absolutely. Beating the Bucks at home when they're sitting key players for more pingpong balls is not "proof" otherwise. No, you watched the scoreboard. I watched the game, and we didn't play well. If that's how we played all year, we'd barely be a .500 team right now.</div> Wow! I didn't know you factored in the records of other teams with ur +/- stats. I'm confused, because you've NEVER mentioned the other teams when boasting Chuck . I sense somebody's a tad bit biased lol <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If we play the next few games without Chuck, that will be a much better test. We'll see how our starting group does there, ok? I just love you're vastly different standards for Juwan and Chuck. If we beat the Bucks at home in a single game, that's proof we're better with Juwan. But when the point differential of our starting group (with Chuck) leads all 5-man combinations for the season, that doesn't prove anything.</div> Stop tryna ignore facts. We were up by I believe 8pts before halftime, and expanded after halftime. We weren't playin nearly the same until Juwan started. He got a steal, a couple of offensive rebound, and a few points within a 5minutes span.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wow! I didn't know you factored in the records of other teams with ur +/- stats. I'm confused, because you've NEVER mentioned the other teams when boasting Chuck I sense somebody's a tad bit biased loll</div> Nonsense. I look at how we play over the stretch of many, many games. I apply the same standard to both players. You're the one with the double standard here. You flip out when we outscore an opponent with Juwan on the court in a single game (understandable, because it's only happend 46% of the time this season), but when the same happens routinely with Chuck (65% of the time, 4th best on the team after Tracy, Yao, and Shane) there isn't a peep from you. Shall I post their respective +/- against plus .500 teams for the season? I can do that if you like, but I know you'll just come up with a different excuse. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Stop tryna ignore facts. We were up by I believe 8pts before halftime, and expanded after halftime. We weren't playin nearly the same until Juwan started. He got a steal, a couple of offensive rebound, and a few points within a 5minutes span.</div> Getting a steal, a couple of offensive boards, and a couple points in a 5-minute span is routine for Chuck. As is increasing our lead while he's in the game. Why doesn't that count as "EXCELLENT" play when he does it?
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Nonsense. I look at how we play over the stretch of many, many games. I apply the same standard to both players. You're the one with the double standard here. You flip out when we outscore an opponent with Juwan on the court in a single game (understandable, because it's only happend 46% of the time this season), but when the same happens routinely with Chuck (65% of the time, 4th best on the team after Tracy, Yao, and Shane) there isn't a peep from you.</div> You've NEVER mentioned who we were playin after Chuck played great. I find it humorous you'd mention the Bucks . If that's the case, why weren't we blowing them out in the 1st half when Chuck started? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Shall I post their respective +/- against plus .500 teams for the season? I can do that if you like, but I know you'll just come up with a different excuse.</div> No excuses from me. But I think you've run outta them lol. The fact is, Juwan came in and gave our starting lineup an offensive boost. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Getting a steal, a couple of offensive boards, and a couple points in a 5-minute span is routine for Chuck. As is increasing our lead while he's in the game. Why doesn't that count as "EXCELLENT" play when he does it?</div> It does count when he does it. But Howard can do the SAME thing, especially against teams like Phoenix who take advantage of Chucks lack of range. I can't wait to see Howard during this stretch!
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You've NEVER mentioned who we were playin after Chuck played great. </div> I never said Chuck "proved" he should be in the starting lineup based on one or two games either. Outscoring the Bucks in a home game proves nothing. Don't know why this is so hard for you to comprehend. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If that's the case, why weren't we blowing them out in the 1st half when Chuck started?</div> Who cares? That we didn't blow them out to start the game proves nothing. For someone with supposedly such a low opinion of +/- statistics, your reliance on them in this instance is way overboard. And, for the record, Chuck played 8 1/2 minutes to start the first half. We outscored them by 5 in that span. In the first 8 1/2 minutes to start the second half, we again outscored them by 5. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No excuses from me. But I think you've run outta them lol. The fact is, Juwan came in and gave our starting lineup an offensive boost. </div> Its funny how you refer to your opinions as facts, and when you say things that are proven to be factually wrong, they become opinions. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It does count when he does it.</div> He got a ton of offensive boards and steals against superior competition (Chris Bosh) in Toronto. I don't recall you referring to that performance as "EXCELLENT." Just be consistent. You don't prove anything in one game against a bad team. I know you agree, so you don't have to admit it if it makes you feel uncomfortable. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But Howard can do the SAME thing, especially against teams like Phoenix who take advantage of Chucks lack of range. </div> You're saying Juwan is equally adept at getting steals and offensive rebounds? Bwahaha. No. In fact, against .500+ teams, Juwan averages under .4 steals and 1.6 off reb per 25 minutes. Chuck averages .9 steals and 2.8 off reb per 25 minutes. In other words, Chuck gets almost twice as many steals+off rebs than Juwan in the same period of time. Juwan has his advantages, but accumulating the "hustle points" isn't one of them.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">we should make a thread just for durvasa and rock4life to duel it out, lol...keep going guys...</div> Its not that. Most of the time Rock4life starts spouting nonsense, and its just irritating.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">we should make a thread just for durvasa and rock4life to duel it out, lol...keep going guys...</div> We have one of those Juwan vs Chuck threads somewhere here. I'm not the one who keeps bringing up the subject in the game threads, though.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Absolutely. Beating the Bucks at home when they're sitting key players for more pingpong balls is not "proof" otherwise. No, you watched the scoreboard. I watched the game, and we didn't play well. If that's how we played all year, we'd barely be a .500 team right now. If we play the next few games without Chuck, that will be a much better test. We'll see how our starting group does there, ok? I just love your vastly different standards for Juwan and Chuck. If we beat the Bucks at home in a single game, that's proof we're better with Juwan. But when the point differential of our starting group (with Chuck) leads all 5-man combinations for the season, that doesn't prove anything.</div> It's funny because it's true.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I never said Chuck "proved" he should be in the starting lineup based on one or two games either. Outscoring the Bucks in a home game proves nothing. Don't know why this is so hard for you to comprehend.</div> I never said you said that. But it didn't take you long to boast after Hayes was inserted back in the starting lineup. After we got whipped by the Celtics (at home), it baffles me why you'd take any team for granted in the NBA. Even the Bucks <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Who cares? That we didn't blow them out to start the game proves nothing. For someone with supposedly such a low opinion of +/- statistics, your reliance on them in this instance is way overboard.</div> All I'm sayin is we were playin mediocore up to the point where Juwan started. The offense picked up after Howard started. If Howard can get us a few offensive boards and make a few hustle plays, then my point has been proven and the debate will be OVER. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He got a ton of offensive boards and steals against superior competition (Chris Bosh) in Toronto. I don't recall you referring to that performance as "EXCELLENT." Just be consistent. You don't prove anything in one game against a bad team. I know you agree, so you don't have to admit it if it makes you feel uncomfortable.</div> Actually, I said he had his BEST GAME as a Rocket lol. Go back and check the Toronto thread <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You're saying Juwan is equally adept at getting steals and offensive rebounds? Bwahaha. No.</div> Nope, i'm not sayin that. However, Howard CAN do those things along with hitting open jumpers and free throws. If he can give us double figure points, and get a few more offensive rebounds, then him being a starter should be justified. <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Its not that. Most of the time Rock4life starts spouting nonsense, and its just irritating.</div> You again? Damn!
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I never said you said that. But it didn't take you long to boast after Hayes was inserted back in the starting lineup. After we got whipped by the Celtics (at home), it baffles me why you'd take any team for granted in the NBA. Even the Bucks ... All I'm sayin is we were playin mediocore up to the point where Juwan started. The offense picked up after Howard started. If Howard can get us a few offensive boards and make a few hustle plays, then my point has been proven and the debate will be OVER. </div> I never boasted. I said I agreed with the decision to start Chuck (my opinion), and I backed it up with stats from the entire season. You, on the other hand, are "boasting" that Juwan should be starting, and somehow that's been proven by one game against a bad team at home. And even based on a single game, you can't back it up with something concrete. We outscored Milwauke by the same margin with Juwan in second half over the first 8 minutes as we did with Chuck in the first half before he got injured. You only have your clearly biased perception to "prove" your point. Don't lump me in with whatever you're doing here. Here are some actual facts. This data is up to date through 3/26. Let's look at our point differential for the entire season with different player combinations: Entire season, all opponents <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>players min off/48 def/48 net/48<br/>Yao,Tracy,Chuck 829 105.5 78.5+27.0 <br/>Yao,Tracy,Juwan 35998.3 99.9 -1.6<br/>Yao,Tracy,Rafer,Shane,Chuck 761 106.1 75.6+30.5<br/>Yao,Tracy,Rafer,Shane,Juwan 196 104.5 89.8+14.7<br/></div> That's regardless of the opponent faced, over the entire season. We simply dominate when Chuck is on the floor with Tracy and Yao. Not so much with Juwan. You see, reality sets in the more games you look at. You only want to pick and choose games where we play well when Juwan is in there, and ignore the +/- data in the other games. I prefer to look at the big picture. Now, let's only look at the numbers against opposing 5-man lineups who are "above average" (+/- for the season >= 0). This will give us an idea of which combinations are most effective against the "good teams". If you're right, then we should be better with Juwan: Entire season, only opponents with +/- >= 0 <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>players min off/48 def/48 net/48<br/>Yao,Tracy,Chuck 43093.6 89.4 +4.2 <br/>Yao,Tracy,Juwan 25190.2104.0-13.8<br/>Yao,Tracy,Rafer,Shane,Chuck 38292.0 83.0 +9.1<br/>Yao,Tracy,Rafer,Shane,Juwan 15398.5 95.4 +3.1<br/></div> What do you know?! We're still significantly better with Chuck. In fact, we've been surprisingly terrible against the good lineups with Yao-Tracy-Juwan when Shane and Rafer weren't also on the court. "Oh wait, but we were able to outscore Milwauke (in tank mode) at home! That PROVES we're better!" Please. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nope, i'm not sayin that. However, Howard CAN do those things along with hitting open jumpers and free throws.</div> What you said: "But Howard can do the SAME thing, especially against teams like Phoenix who take advantage of Chucks lack of range." That's obviously not true. Juwan does some things better than Chuck, but there are obviously things he doesn't do as well. Why can't you just admit obvious stuff like that?
But but but stats dont mean anything. Juwan Howard can rebound just as well and play just as good defense. Never mind stats, they prove nothing. The only reason why it seems Hayes is doing better is because Jeff Van Gundy doesnt know how to utilize Juwan Howard. We all know Juwan is a much capable defender then a scrub like Hayes. I mean come on. Hayes is 6'6. Never mind the fact we did so well without Yao. That had nothing to do with Jeff Van Gundy. It was all obviously because of Juwan. Without Juwan starting every game in the playoffs getting 40+ minutes over that scrub, we are going to lose. Obviously my vast knowledge of basketball surpasses stats and common sense. To prove my vast knowledge, I have been watching Rockets since the Sleepy Floyd Era. Did I hit the nail Rock?
