Great article. I found it here: http://savejoe.net/id7.html Kobe Bryant is still not as good as Michael Jordan - Separating fact from fiction 4/16/07 It's begun again. Kobe Bryant fans are like flashers. It's derived from the arrogance of Celtics and Lakers fans from the 80s. They got so used to being the best and having the best of everything in basketball, that when Michael Jordan came into the league, it was often fans and writers from these towns who shot at him the most. There was "you can't score this much and yet your team will still win." When Jordan won championships, to people in Boston and LA it was only because the talent level of the entire NBA suddenly diminished greatly between 1990 and 1991. Yeah, that's right, overnight. When Kobe Bryant came into the NBA, Laker fans had their chance. They had their idol to hold up as being better than Michael Jordan. It started in full force in 1999, and didn't stop until about 2004. Kobe Bryant was "like a young Michael Jordan, only better!" Forget that Kobe's fans usually had no idea just how good MJ was from 84-91, as most memories we get to see of him are from his later years. Kobe fans assume that if Kobe can jump like MJ in 1996 then "he's just as good of a dunker as Michael Jordan." You heard it all. Laker fans loved to remind you that "Kobe has three rings at age 22, Michael Jordan had none." This of course completely ignores that Michael Jordan was the best player on his title teams, and Kobe was second fiddle to one of the best big men of all time. O'neal won the 2000 NBA MVP and all three Finals MVPs during the Lakers title run. So Kobe Bryant played Jon Havlicek during the Russell years, congratulations. But Kobe fans went away. Kobe turned 23 and 24, ages at which MJ started to take off to even higher heights. Kobe, on the other hand, failed to look Jordanesque in a 2003 series loss to San Antonio, while watching counterpart Manu Ginobili go off and become a force against the Lakers. Then he shot 37% in 2004 v. the Pistons, and his fans really went away. But they come back, all the time. If he has a 40 PPG month, they're back and he's Jordan only better all over again. Forget that Kobe fans who compare Kobe to Jordan were nowhere to be found in 2005, or after game 7 last year v. the Suns. When Kobe plays more like Michael Jordan mixed with Reggie Miller and Haywoode Workman, those games don't count. The comparison Kobe Bryant fans like is clear: Kobe's best games v. MJ's entire career The worst Kobe > Jordan article I've ever read Jemele Hill of the Booya network, or ESPN, probably wrote the worst Kobe > MJ article I've ever read in my life. First, the media hegemons goal is clear in making Kobe, or anybody for that matter into the next MJ. See, to the corporate hegemon, MJ = Cash, BIG cash, unprecedented cash. Therefore if you can get Kobe or Lebron to = MJ in the public's eyes, then Kobe will = the same cash for the same people that you and I will never see on TV. Second, if you look at Hill's picture you can't imagine her having seen MJ in his athletic prime day in and day out. So, with that, let's delve into her argument (Hill's article displayed in italic quotes): "Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan. Not more successful. Hasn't had a bigger economic impact. Hasn't won more MVPs. Hasn't won more titles. But he's a better player. Kobe can do everything Michael did, and even a few things Michael couldn't do." Ok, so basically, he's not really better by any measure. He doesn't win more, he's never won as the best player on his team. He doesn't win more MVPs or defensive player of the year awards. He's not better statistically (if you compare Kobe and MJ's stats at the same ages, MJ wins in a landslide). So he's better because you think he is. Well that's great logic. Guess what? George Bush isn't President. See, whether or not anyone likes our system, he was "awarded" President, he lives in the White House, he acts as President, but I don't think he's President, so he's not. See how that works? "Kobe is just as good a defender. His killer instinct is just as pronounced. He can shoot, finish and explode. And just like Jordan, the more he's pissed off, the more unstoppable he is." Kobe is just as good a defender? Really? By what measure. Michael Jordan has 1 Defensive Player of the Year Award, Kobe has none. From ages 21-29 (since MJ entered the league at 21 and Kobe turns 29 shortly after this season is over), Kobe Bryant has averaged 1.65 steals per game and 0.58 blocks per game. Jordan, again, at the same ages, averaged 2.75 steals per game and 1.07 blocks per game. So Jemele has proven one thing here, that it's great to have an opinion. Your opinion is nice Jemele, but we've just seen, by the numbers, that Kobe is not close to the defender MJ is. I've never seen anyone even suggest Kobe Bryant for a Defensive Player of the Year Award. Next let's talk about Kobe's alleged "explosion." If you've ever watched Jordan in the late 80s and early 90s you know that Kobe does not dunk like, nor does he explode like Michael Jordan. Jordan's game was about tomahawk dunks and taking two and three defenders to the hole for facial jams over contact from multiple players. That's why MJ shot 53.5% in 88, 53.8% in 89, 52.6% in 90, 53.9% in 91, and 51.9% in 1992. See Jordan had one glaring difference from today's leapers like Bryant, McGrady and James. His lightning quick first step. Take Kobe Bryant. Now, give him Isiah Thomas' first step and you have Michael Jordan in his athletic prime (87-92). Jordan was able to blow by his on-ball defender so quickly and have such a running start that taking off from far distances and being able to come over the top of elite frontcourt players was seemingly easy. Bryant, on the other hand, has never shot better than 46.9% from the field. His athleticism on his best day may be Grade B Jordan, but his tendencies are a lot more like Reggie Miller. Could Kobe take it straight to the cup more? Sure. Does he? No. He's a great great jumpshooter. But a great jumpshooter is like comparing a great singles hitter to Willie Mays, or a great all-purpose back to a player like Walter Payton. Bryant fans love to tell you that the game is so much more athletic now that you can't shoot the percentages that MJ shot back then in today's game from the SG position. Enter Dwyane Wade, who shot 49.5% in 06 and is shooting 49.1% this year. It is Wade, not Bryant, who reminds me most of MJ's ability to take it to the cup on multiple defenders. Wade almost single-handedly willed an inferior Miami team to victory over the Mavericks by taking it straight to the cup on whatever defenders that the Mavericks were willing to provide him. Take Jordan himself, at age 41 he shot 44.5% on his last legs. Bryant is shooting 45.2% this year. So you're telling me that MJ 15 years younger could not have shot markedly better than 45.2%. This is what Bryant fans don't get. The scoring, the big points. It was welcomed in Chicago because Jordan was able to sometimes do it at higher percentages than players like Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone and Rik Smits. 30+ PPG production at center FG% rates? That is efficient offense. Kobe is shooting at jumpshooting PG percentages. That's entirely different. "At the very least, Kobe's scoring spree over the last week should put to rest any lingering doubts that he's the best player in the NBA. Yes, better than Steve Nash, who is the best point guard, but not the lethal force that Kobe is. Yes, better than Dwyane Wade, who is certainly closer to the Kobe-Jordan level than LeBron James, but D-Wade's game is not as polished as Kobe's." Wrong again, on all counts. First start with Wade. The last time I checked, when scoring on who has LED a team to a championship, the score is: Wade 1 Bryant 0 And Wade is 3.5 years younger than Bryant. While you're talking about scoring explosion, Wade is averaging 27.8 PPG on 49.1% FG, while Bryant is averaging 31.5 PPG on 45.2% FG. Which do you want leading your team? Now, let's get to Nash. Wrong again. Nash's team is the two seed, and achieved a high seed last year without Amare playing a large role. He made Boris Diaw look all world in the post. For Bryant to be better than Nash, he has to lead a team to a ring. And while you're going there, can you picture Nash winning MVPs over 29 year old Jordan? Yes, at Kobe's age, MJ won a ring, won an MVP, a Finals MVP, led his team to 67 regular season wins and averaged 30.1 PPG on 51.9% field goals. Oh and he averaged 6.4 RPG and 6.1 APG on a team with Scottie Pippen averaging 21.0 PPG, 7.7 RPG and 7.0 APG and Horace Grant averaging 14.2 PPG. So MJ did it all. He did what Nash did, what Bryant did and then some. As far as Kobe being the best player in the NBA, are you talking about career or one season? Because careerwise, you'd have to call Duncan and Shaq slam dunks as better players than Bryant. If Garnett or Dirk win one ring as the leader of their team, you'd have to include them. And you could easily argue that Nash is better and Wade and James will be better career players than Bryant. The article goes on in much longer and more convincing fashion than could be posted here. The rest is at this link: http://savejoe.net/id7.html
Okay I'm half way through the article, but I just had to stop and laugh at this. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and Haywoode Workman</div>
LMAO @ this entire article...but I agree with everything in here and yeah ole girl who wrote that article needs to be fired on the spot... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There's no doubt Jordan is better than Kobe, but Kobe's definetly the closest thing since Jordan IMO</div> *cough* Wade *cough* EDIT there is one thing that I didn't agree with in the article though....Duncan > Karl Malone imo....
[quote name='THE DREAM;802513']LMAO @ this entire article...but I agree with everything in here and yeah ole girl who wrote that article needs to be fired on the spot... *cough* Wade *cough* EDIT QUOTE] Are you serious. your saying that wade is the next or close to being jordan, what has wade done that kobe hasn't done, sure he was the finals mvp, but wade has a much better TEAM then kobe does, and shaq was still young when he was on LA,so thats why kobe, didnt get it.Wow wade is better.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">LMAO @ this entire article...but I agree with everything in here and yeah ole girl who wrote that article needs to be fired on the spot... *cough* Wade *cough* EDIT </div> Are you serious. your saying that wade is the next or close to being jordan, what has wade done that kobe hasn't done, sure he was the finals mvp, but wade has a much better TEAM then kobe does, and shaq was still young when he was on LA,so thats why kobe didnt get mvp.was wade close to getting season mvp, nope.Wow wade is better.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">LMAO @ this entire article...but I agree with everything in here and yeah ole girl who wrote that article needs to be fired on the spot... *cough* Wade *cough* EDIT </div> Are you serious. your saying that wade is the next or close to being jordan, what has wade done that kobe hasn't done, sure he was the finals mvp, but wade has a much better TEAM then kobe does, and shaq was still young when he was on LA,so thats why kobe didnt get mvp.was wade close to getting season mvp, nope.kobe led his team to the playoffs,alone.Wow wade is better.
I don't really see the need of starting another MJ vs Kobe thread, because we all know where it's going to go. But yeah, Wade isn't the closest thing to MJ <font color=""Red""><font size=""7""><u>IMO</u></font></font> IMO stands for in my opinion
Although somewhat informal, this article absolutely demolishes Jemele Hill's article (which I thought was a great read as well).
^^See that adds nothing to the conversation. Wade has the closest game to MJ IMO. Kobe Bryant is better at this point in terms of overall game, but you have to admit Wade's game is probably as close to MJ's as it gets. The article brings up a good point about bandwagoners who like to compare Kobe's hot stretches to Mj's whole career.
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">^^See that adds nothing to the conversation. Wade has the closest game to MJ IMO. Kobe Bryant is better at this point in terms of overall game, but you have to admit Wade's game is probably as close to MJ's as it gets. The article brings up a good point about bandwagoners who like to compare Kobe's hot stretches to Mj's whole career.</div> Well, I said it because I'm trying to avoid yet another Wade vs. Kobe or Kobe vs. MJ debate. The whole point of the article was to shut down the Kobe vs. MJ topic, which it did. However, I guess I'll make an exemption. With each passing year and the Lakers players I see surrounding him, it's hard to see Kobe Bryant being what he is destined to be: a winner. So far on his independent journey, Kobe's career has resembled Dominique Wilkins' more than anything, although even Wilkins could get his team past the first round of the playoffs. It's easy to say that "if Kobe was as great as MJ, he would have won the MVP over guys like Nash" (which is esentially what the author states at one point), but once again, that's "pure speculation" as the author themself had said - contradiction on his/her part, because that's what he had knocked Hill for. Who's to say that MJ would lead a team with Smush and Brian Cook as regular contributers past the first round? It's ridiculous to compare even MJ's earlier teams to the team that Kobe has surrounding him currently. MJ's greatness was escalated because his teammates were just the perfect players to compliment him. Where was Michael Jordan's greatness when he was averaging 37.1 ppg on a team that finished 40-42 and were swept in the first round? The Bulls didn't become the Bulls that turned into winners until Jordan got LEGIT help around him. Check the Bulls records before the arrivals of guys like Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, Charles Oakley, Bill Cartright (I'm talking pre-1990's). Each of those 4 players are/were EXCELLENT complimentary players that would do well on any team. Pippen himself became a hall-of-fame player. So, where was Jordan's brilliance without these guys? 40-42? 30-52? 38-44? C'mon, surely those can't be the records of MJ's teams? Well, they were. Granted, the 30-52 record was when Jordan was injured but either way, the point is simple. Surround Kobe with players that have the caliber or potential of a Bill Cartright, Charles Oakley, Pippen and John Paxon, and you will obviously see results.
Agreed that Wade is the closest to Jordan. He has shown an ability to take over a game night in and night out that Kobe, let's face it has only done sporadically. There is a difference between putting a team on your back and going on an insane scoring run. It's hard to put your finger on, but Wade puts the team on his back and goes on a run, Kobe simply goes on a run....... The fact that ANTOINE WALKER and JASON WILLIAMS have rings says a lot about Wade's charisma that gets guys around him to play better.
<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Agreed that Wade is the closest to Jordan. He has shown an ability to take over a game night in and night out that Kobe, let's face it has only done sporadically. There is a difference between putting a team on your back and going on an insane scoring run. It's hard to put your finger on, but Wade puts the team on his back and goes on a run, Kobe simply goes on a run....... The fact that ANTOINE WALKER and JASON WILLIAMS have rings says a lot about Wade's charisma that gets guys around him to play better.</div> The fact that BRIAN COOK and SMUSH PARKER are the teammates that surround Kobe say a lot about his team's talent level as well. I don't know about you, but I'd have Walker (as much I HATE him) and Jason Williams (always have loved watching him) than Parker and Cook.
<div class="quote_poster">Karma Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The fact that BRIAN COOK and SMUSH PARKER are the teammates that surround Kobe say a lot about his team's talent level as well. I don't know about you, but I'd have Walker (as much I HATE him) and Jason Williams (always have loved watching him) than Parker and Cook.</div> What is your point???????? Last time I checked those dudes didn't have rings. I'm sick of hearing about Kobe's non-supporting-cast. I LOVE Kobe. But anyone who watches him play can tell that he's a 1-on-1 type of player. He's a good weapon to have, but he does not bring the best game out of his teammates. Not like Nash, Dwayne, or Tim Duncan or yes, even Shaq. Has anyone on Kobe's team really improved since playing with him? Not really. Luke Walton maybe, but that's more cause of him, not Kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Agreed that Wade is the closest to Jordan. He has shown an ability to take over a game night in and night out that Kobe, let's face it has only done sporadically. There is a difference between putting a team on your back and going on an insane scoring run. It's hard to put your finger on, but Wade puts the team on his back and goes on a run, Kobe simply goes on a run....... The fact that ANTOINE WALKER and JASON WILLIAMS have rings says a lot about Wade's charisma that gets guys around him to play better.</div> Um, Kobe has taken over games many times in his career, and many times this season. I don't know what you're talking about, but Kobe can take over games just as well as Wade <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What is your point???????? Last time I checked those dudes didn't have rings. I'm sick of hearing about Kobe's non-supporting-cast. I LOVE Kobe. But anyone who watches him play can tell that he's a 1-on-1 type of player. He's a good weapon to have, but he does not bring the best game out of his teammates. Not like Nash, Dwayne, or Tim Duncan or yes, even Shaq. Has anyone on Kobe's team really improved since playing with him? Not really. Luke Walton maybe, but that's more cause of him, not Kobe.</div> Yeah, and Shaq's on Wade's team. When Shaq was down, Wade couldn't even lead his team past .500. When Wade was down, Shaq lead his team above .500
<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What is your point???????? Last time I checked those dudes didn't have rings. I'm sick of hearing about Kobe's non-supporting-cast. I LOVE Kobe. But anyone who watches him play can tell that he's a 1-on-1 type of player. He's a good weapon to have, but he does not bring the best game out of his teammates. Not like Nash, Dwayne, or Tim Duncan or yes, even Shaq. Has anyone on Kobe's team really improved since playing with him? Not really. Luke Walton maybe, but that's more cause of him, not Kobe.</div> I have watched him, and yes, although he does have a lot of isolations set up for him, the guy genuinely sets up looks for his teammates as well. When your teammtes don't knock them down or pass the ball right back to you to look for you to shoot it, that not only takes away a potentially assist, but you're also seen as a "ball hog" because you end up shooting the ball again. Granted, Kobe does have flaws in his game and he does force his shots at times, but to say he doesn't make players around him better is ridiculous. He's averaging 5 assists a game and taking a supporting cast as inconsistent and weak as this one to the playoffs. At this point, the only defence we have is his supporting players. I didn't like Parker and Cook when we were winning, and I don't like them when we're losing.
<div class="quote_poster">Brian Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Um, Kobe has taken over games many times in his career, and many times this season. I don't know what you're talking about, but Kobe can take over games just as well as Wade </div>Not really. Kobe goes on runs, which sometimes ends up in the Lakers winning, sometimes not. Wade puts the team on his back and takes over the game, which more often ends in his team winning. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Yeah, and Shaq's on Wade's team. When Shaq was down, Wade couldn't even lead his team past .500. When Wade was down, Shaq lead his team above .500</div> Otherwise known as The Shaq Excuse. First of all, don't talk about regular season win-loss records with so-and-so out, they don't carry much weight. Did you watch the FINALS last year?? While there might be a grain or two of truth to Shaq helping Wade look good at times, how do you explain Wade's first year, pre-Shaq where he immediately assumed the identity of leader and led the team deep into the playoffs one year after being a 20-win team......
