GT: Playoffs 2007 - 1st Round - Rockets at Jazz G3

<div class="quote_poster">Brian Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Only 4 players scored?? WOW</div>

First time that's happened in the history of the playoffs.

 

Wow, that is a FUGLY boxscore.

We only got 9 assists. Our starting lineup got all 19 turnovers. Rafer had a good game. I can't believe Okur is holding Yao to under 50% shooting. They are really playing him physically (14/16 from the line.)

Too bad we haven't seen much Head lately.

Worst stat of all, only 4 players scored today. Bonzi Wells anyone? At least give Snyder some more minutes.

 

<div class="quote_poster">igotask8board Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, that is a FUGLY boxscore.

We only got 9 assists. Our starting lineup got all 19 turnovers. Rafer had a good game. I can't believe Okur is holding Yao to under 50% shooting. They are really playing him physically (14/16 from the line.)

Too bad we haven't seen much Head lately.

Worst stat of all, only 4 players scored today. Bonzi Wells anyone? At least give Snyder some more minutes.</div>

+2 Snyder got all of three minutes then got put on the bench while luther played 24 and made some real bad defensive plays(Harpring)JVG needs to get his head out of his a$$.

 

<div class="quote_poster">igotask8board Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, that is a FUGLY boxscore.

We only got 9 assists. Our starting lineup got all 19 turnovers. Rafer had a good game. I can't believe Okur is holding Yao to under 50% shooting. They are really playing him physically (14/16 from the line.)

Too bad we haven't seen much Head lately.

Worst stat of all, only 4 players scored today. Bonzi Wells anyone? At least give Snyder some more minutes.</div>
I was gonna mention Bonzi too. If I'm not mistaken, our bench didn't even score tonight. That's embarassing. This is what I was complaining about all season, situations like tonight. Tmac and Yao have carried every game in this series while the others have stood around and watched (outside of Battier). According to JVG (and Durvasa), "Bonzi just isn't a good fit for us". Considering Bonzi's track record in the playoffs, and tonight's box score, it's hard for me to except that notion.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Tmac and Yao have carried every game in this series while the others have stood around and watched (outside of Battier).</div>

Firstly, when your two stars are as dominant and talented as Tmac and Yao, they're supposed to dominate the offense in the playoffs. What you need is the role players to play hard and smart on defense and play efficient on offense. We've gotten very good play from Rafer, Chuck, and Battier in the first two games. Chuck Hayes, in particular, was excellent in our game 2 win. That's been acknowledged by pretty much everyone other than you. Without him, we might have been blown out in the first quarter of game 2. I thought Juwan did some good things in the first two games as well, though overall we need much more from him. So this notion that no one has contributed other than McGrady, Yao, and Battier is simply wrong.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">According to JVG (and Durvasa), "Bonzi just isn't a good fit for us". Considering Bonzi's track record in the playoffs, and tonight's box score, it's hard for me to except that notion.</div>

Right, based on his track record in last year's postseason, he could have helped. Based on his track record in the current regular season (far more relevant), it's unlikely. If he goes 2-7 from the field with 3 turnovers, that probably isn't helping. Further, if he was added to the rotation, we may not have even won our first two games.

All that said, I didn't anticipate our production from the bench (Luther Head, Juwan Howard) would be so meager. And neither did you. Weren't you saying last week that Juwan would be the X-factor in this series? The X-factor is averaging 3.3 ppg and 3.0 rpg, and he's 2-14 from the field. Obviously, we need more from him.

 

To rock, if Juwan plays horribly, and Chuck plays well, it never happened. He never brings it up. On the other hand if Juwan does have a good game, he will be the fastest one to say "told you so". I didn't think Juwan would contribute much to begin with...I didn't think he would be this useless. For stretches of time, he would be the guy who only sets a pick for Tmac and nothing else. Even the Utah defenders RAN AWAY from him when he shot. You know something is wrong when your defender chooses to not guard you and head to the rim in anticipation of a rebound. So much for the "respect".

 

<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Firstly, when your two stars are as dominant and talented as Tmac and Yao, they're supposed to dominate the offense in the playoffs. What you need is the role players to play hard and smart on defense and play efficient on offense. We've gotten very good play from Rafer, Chuck, and Battier in the first two games. Chuck Hayes, in particular, was excellent in our game 2 win. That's been acknowledged by pretty much everyone other than you. Without him, we might have been blown out in the first quarter of game 2. I thought Juwan did some good things in the first two games as well, though overall we need much more from him. So this notion that no one has contributed other than McGrady, Yao, and Battier is simply wrong.</div>
I'm talkin about offensivley. Rafer played horrible last nite. Being the point guard of this team, I saw he did a horrendous job of getting the ball to Yao. To call his play "good" is bad judgement. Tmac and Yao have played slighlty above average but as a "team" our offensive production has been at the max poor, especially our so-called bench. If you think Bonzi couldn't have helped this team off the bench then ur simply in denial. If you haven't noticed Hapring is KILLING us and Utah has dominated us on the offensive boards, something Bonzi does very well. Outside of Tmac and Yao this team needs offense.

NOTE:You need role players to PRODUCE. Right now our role players and our bench have failed us in every game this playoffs. Bonzi's presence is sorely missed.


<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Right, based on his track record in last year's postseason, he could have helped. Based on his track record in the current regular season (far more relevant), it's unlikely. If he goes 2-7 from the field with 3 turnovers, that probably isn't helping. Further, if he was added to the rotation, we may not have even won our first two games.</div>
Wrong!.......Based on his CAREER in the postseason. His playoff numbers are relativley solid. This is why I was begging JVG to get him off the injured list earlier in the season (instead of holding him out). If we would've let Bonzi play when he was healthy, he would've had plenty of time to get acclamated and help us off the bench. So ur statements that "Bonzi doesn't fit this team" was simply a rush to judgement. Our bench and team collectivley has been offensivley non-existent.


<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">All that said, I didn't anticipate our production from the bench (Luther Head, Juwan Howard) would be so meager. And neither did you. Weren't you saying last week that Juwan would be the X-factor in this series? The X-factor is averaging 3.3 ppg and 3.0 rpg, and he's 2-14 from the field. Obviously, we need more from him.</div>
I was wrong about Howard's production in the postseason, and I was also wrong about how Utah was gonna play Yao. They've decided their gonna let Tmac and Yao get their points and shut everybody else down. In that sense, you have to have a creator off the bench. Bonzi's a creator, and at 6'5 big enuff to get offensive rebounds. Something we've been gettin killed at. Like I said, Bonzi could've been REALLY helpful in this series.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm talkin about offensivley. Rafer played horrible last nite. Being the point guard of this team, I saw he did a horrendous job of getting the ball to Yao. To call his play "good" is bad judgement. Tmac and Yao have played slighlty above average but as a "team" our offensive production has been at the max poor, especially our so-called bench.</div>

I specifically said the first two games. I don't think anyone played well in game 3, other than maybe Battier.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">If you think Bonzi couldn't have helped this team off the bench then ur simply in denial. If you haven't noticed Hapring is KILLING us and Utah has dominated us on the offensive boards, something Bonzi does very well. Outside of Tmac and Yao this team needs offense. </div>

He could have helped. I just wouldn't bet on it. He could just as easily have hurt us in the first two games we won. Obviously, when you play as poorly on offense as we did in game 3, any alternative options look relatively good in retrospect.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">NOTE:You need role players to PRODUCE. Right now our role players and our bench have failed us in every game this playoffs. Bonzi's presence is sorely missed. </div>

You continue to ignore the very positive contributions we've got from key role players in the first two games. Chuck Hayes had 7 offensive rebounds in game 2. That was a key offensive contribution. He was responsible for several of our second chance points.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I was wrong about Howard's production in the postseason, and I was also wrong about how Utah was gonna play Yao. They've decided their gonna let Tmac and Yao get their points and shut everybody else down. In that sense, you have to have a creator off the bench. Bonzi's a creator, and at 6'5 big enuff to get offensive rebounds. Something we've been gettin killed at. Like I said, Bonzi could've been REALLY helpful in this series.</div>

The argument you kept going to the last few months on why Bonzi would help us is free throws. We don't get to the free throw line nearly enough. Remember that? That's yet another thing you were wrong about. So now you're switching the argument to offensive rebounding. But any edge in offensive rebounding he might give us would be nullified by not having Yao, Chuck, or Deke on the floor as well. A McGrady-Snyder-Bonzi-Battier-Howard lineup (which you proposed a few weeks ago as a lineup that would work against the Jazz) would get killed on the boards against this team.

And the Jazz didn't just decide to let McGrady and Yao get their points. They were doubling McGrady through most of the second half, and the Jazz have done an excellent job forcing Yao away from the basket on his postups. We also had a lot of careless turnovers. Yao has to be more assertive getting post up position close to the basket, and we can't throw the ball away. If those things happen, we'll get all the free throws and open looks we want.

 

<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I specifically said the first two games. I don't think anyone played well in game 3, other than maybe Battier.</div>
Well you haven't watched the first two games. Our shooting percentage is in the low 30's, and we've got little offensive contribution from our role players. Tmac & Yao have got very little help.


<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He could have helped. I just wouldn't bet on it. He could just as easily have hurt us in the first two games we won. Obviously, when you play as poorly on offense as we did in game 3, any alternative options look relatively good in retrospect.</div>
How could he have hurt us? That's a very dim prespective. If I'm not mistaken, our bench DID NOT EVEN SCORE last nite. Not to mention the role players haven't collectivley came through offensivley the whole series. Considering Bonzi's track record in the playoffs, with two different teams, he's a major contributor in the postseason. Offensive production & rebounds being his strong suits, both of which we've been really lackin in all 3 games.

<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You continue to ignore the very positive contributions we've got from key role players in the first two games. Chuck Hayes had 7 offensive rebounds in game 2. That was a key offensive contribution. He was responsible for several of our second chance points.</div>
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm simply lookin at the bigger picture while ur trying to glorify Hayes's rebounding in game 2. Bottomline, Tmac & Yao are carrying too much of the load offensivley. Battier has hit some big shots, but as a whole our role players aren't contributing offensivley. Everybody's just standing around watching our superstars. Somebody's gotta create out there besides Tmac & Yao, and that was supposed to be mainly Bonzi's job. But apparently you felt like he "could've hurt us". Well what's really "hurt us" is our role players not being able to get good looks. What's "hurt us" is our bench scoring ZERO points and not gettin to the free throw line. What's "hurt us" is our inability to defend Hapring, who is much stronger than Tmac. Chuck had a good game 2, but that cant change the same glaring weakness's I've been stating ALL YEAR LONG.


<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The argument you kept going to the last few months on why Bonzi would help us is free throws. We don't get to the free throw line nearly enough. Remember that? That's yet another thing you were wrong about. So now you're switching the argument to offensive rebounding. But any edge in offensive rebounding he might give us would be nullified by not having Yao, Chuck, or Deke on the floor as well. A McGrady-Snyder-Bonzi-Battier-Howard lineup (which you proposed a few weeks ago as a lineup that would work against the Jazz) would get killed on the boards against this team.

And the Jazz didn't just decide to let McGrady and Yao get their points. They were doubling McGrady through most of the second half, and the Jazz have done an excellent job forcing Yao away from the basket on his postups. We also had a lot of careless turnovers. Yao has to be more assertive getting post up position close to the basket, and we can't throw the ball away. If those things happen, we'll get all the free throws and open looks we want.</div>
That's a poor assessment of how this series has gone. First off, stop nitpicking certain parts of my argument about Bonzi. Bonzi could've done MULTIPLE things for our team right now. Getting to the free throw line is only one apsect, how about rebounding, scoring, blocks, assist and steals. Not to mention guarding Harpring, who's been really giving us problems on offense. What we're lacking is an ATHLETIC/SLASHIN wing, the same weakness we came into training camp with (remember that). Utah's main objective is to push Yao & Tmac to score all the points, while making it hard for our role players to create. They realize we don't have somebody who can get their own shot, what I've been sayin all along. Juwan hasn't came thru offensivley, but niether has ANYBODY. The answer isn't just minimized to "getting Yao the ball", we haven't found a way to get the other players better looks. That's one thing that's been consistent all series. We don't have a player who's saavy enuff to carry the offense thru stretches. It was a mistake for you (and JVG) to assume he didn't fit. When in all actuality we really could use him right now...............

 

Our problem is that we need people who can create. Our starters for the most part is fine. What we do need however is a bench that create their own shots. Mutumbo, Juwan, Head, even Snyder...it ain't gonna cut it. Funny thing is, watching Snyder is so frustrating. He's such an athletic player, yet it seems like we don't use his athleticism.

While I think the Bonzi of last year can contribute significantly, the obvious answer is that he isn't the Bonzi of last year. He has only played a few solid games this year. He would have DEFINATELY hurt us in the first two playoff games. His defense is subpar (we won off defense in free throws), and he is very turnover proned. His loffense this season probably won't be enough to offset those two. In the third game against Utah, JVG frustrated the hell out of me. It was obvious our bench wasn't scoring. He should have at least brought in JL3 (even though I am not a JL3 fan). Snyder should have gotten more playing time. Anything that might revive our offense.

 

Rafer and Deron are getting too many rebounds in this series. I hate the fact that we have to play Utah's way.

 

<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Our problem is that we need people who can create. Our starters for the most part is fine. What we do need however is a bench that create their own shots. Mutumbo, Juwan, Head, even Snyder...it ain't gonna cut it. Funny thing is, watching Snyder is so frustrating. He's such an athletic player, yet it seems like we don't use his athleticism. </div>
Glad you actually made a good point. The problem is Bonzi was our best role player at getting his own shot. All those games Bonzi wasn't activated, even when healthy, could've been used as a grace period to get used to the system. Now Snyder's in the same position Bonzi was and it shouldn't be any surprise he isn't producing. If the coach has his rotation down and isn't willing to interchange players, then it's harder for players like Bonzi and Snyder to ever adjust to the system.

<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">[While I think the Bonzi of last year can contribute significantly, the obvious answer is that he isn't the Bonzi of last year. He has only played a few solid games this year. He would have DEFINATELY hurt us in the first two playoff games. His defense is subpar (we won off defense in free throws), and he is very turnover proned. His loffense this season probably won't be enough to offset those two. In the third game against Utah, JVG frustrated the hell out of me. It was obvious our bench wasn't scoring. He should have at least brought in JL3 (even though I am not a JL3 fan). Snyder should have gotten more playing time. Anything that might revive our offense.</div>
I'm not quite understanding. Ur actin like Bonzi's washed up goods lol. The guy is still talented and capeable of producing (with enuff time to adjust). The Bonzi of "last year" is the same Bonzi of "this year", the only difference is he didn't get a real chance under JVG. So urs and Durvasa's notion that he'll "hurt the team" is dead weight. The team is ALREADY "hurting" without another creator and reliable 3rd option off the bench. We could really use Bonzi's low post game............

 

<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not quite understanding. Ur actin like Bonzi's washed up goods lol. The guy is still talented and capeable of producing (with enuff time to adjust). </div>

How much time? How many losses should we have risked so that Bonzi could "adjust"? With Yao missing half the season and our margin for error consequentially reduced, could we afford such an adjustment period? And then, when/if he does start playing well, does he stay healthy long enough to make up for the adjustment period?

Bonzi screwed himself with his attitude to start the season, and the same thing happened to end the season. In the middle, he was the model of inconsistency and unreliability. I'm baffled that you continue to defend him after all that's happened..

Here's the real test. You say Bonzi still has it in him to be a very good player if given a chance. Fine. Let's wait and see what Bonzi is doing next season. If he has a good year and helps his team win, I'll concede that Bonzi would have helped us if given more of a chance. Surely, if Bonzi is as good as you say, some team will give him an opportunitiy to show it. But I expect his career goes sharply south from here. No team, unless they're desperate, would even give him mid-level money.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">


I'm not quite understanding. Ur actin like Bonzi's washed up goods lol. The guy is still talented and capeable of producing (with enuff time to adjust). The Bonzi of "last year" is the same Bonzi of "this year", the only difference is he didn't get a real chance under JVG. So urs and Durvasa's notion that he'll "hurt the team" is dead weight. The team is ALREADY "hurting" without another creator and reliable 3rd option off the bench. We could really use Bonzi's low post game............</div>

I'm not saying hes washed up goods. He could have plenty left. Bonzi is clearly upset over the whole sacramento thing, and it really affected him. He hasn't shown that he can play at a very high level this season. Perhaps he's distracted or something, but my reasoning is that no matter what system hes going to be in, he isn't going to perform the way he did in Sacramento simply because of the way he "threw" his contract away. I think that has been bugging him all season. Even to this point he talks fondly of Sacramento, and you can still detect the regret. Bonzi isnt washed up any more then AK is washed up. Both have mental issues to deal with before they are able to push it up a notch.

The major difference isn't JVG, the major difference is his significant reduction in money earned. His playing poorly in a contract year added to that frustration as well which compounded the problems. Trust me, he would have played poorly no matter what coach he was under (for this season). Mental issues affect your playing more than any coaching style. JVG can't be blamed for his overweight issues, bad free-throws, high turnovers (wobbly hands), and his reduction of his midrange game. All that was mental.

I thought LUther could be a creator, but he has yet to prove that. He needs to improve his penetration skills (and ballhandling) to be a threat. Right now, he is simply a spot up 3 point shooter. If he can add to that skillset, then that would be great. The good thing is that he is still in his second year, so there is still room for development.

As much as you love Juwan, and as much as he helped us, we need a better backup pf that can come off the bench and score.

 

<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How much time? How many losses should we have risked so that Bonzi could "adjust"? With Yao missing half the season and our margin for error consequentially reduced, could we afford such an adjustment period? And then, when/if he does start playing well, does he stay healthy long enough to make up for the adjustment period?</div>
I'm not sure the real risk of giving a player 15minutes a game until he gets his legs under him. As a matter of fact, that scenario is very common in the league. You think Bonzi's the only player comin off injury? Absolutley not. Great coaches are able to blend a player into the scheme of things, that's why they get paid to coach. Right?

<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Bonzi screwed himself with his attitude to start the season, and the same thing happened to end the season. In the middle, he was the model of inconsistency and unreliability. I'm baffled that you continue to defend him after all that's happened..</div>
If Bonzi's attitude was so bad, then why did JVG make absolutley no mention of this when he talked about him? In fact he even said Bonzi's attitude wasn't a problem and admitted he couldn't fit him in the system. Which might turn out to be a terrible mistake.

<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Here's the real test. You say Bonzi still has it in him to be a very good player if given a chance. Fine. Let's wait and see what Bonzi is doing next season. If he has a good year and helps his team win, I'll concede that Bonzi would have helped us if given more of a chance. Surely, if Bonzi is as good as you say, some team will give him an opportunitiy to show it. But I expect his career goes sharply south from here. No team, unless they're desperate, would even give him mid-level money.</div>
Bonzi will eventually play again, and play well. But I'm still a little sour over JVG's thought that we really didn't need Bonzi. You could tell he felt (as well as you) that, "hey, we don't need Bonzi Wells. Our bench is strong enuff". Even though we've won 2 outta 3, our role players collectivley haven't came to play. Which shouldn't be a surprise because almost all of them either are inexperienced, or haven't played in the playoffs for quite some time. I've been sayin this all year.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
If Bonzi's attitude was so bad, then why did JVG make absolutley no mention of this when he talked about him? In fact he even said Bonzi's attitude wasn't a problem and admitted he couldn't fit him in the system. Which might turn out to be a terrible mistake.
</div>

I'll comment on this. JVG isn't the type who will bash player's attitude. He isn't like Larry Brown or Phil Jackson (both of whom likes to use the media to call certain players out). He has put the Bonzi chapter behind him and it is pointless to add fuel to the fire. What does JVG have to gain by commenting on Bonzi's attitude? Use your noggin. If JVG says Bonzi has a poor attitude, then that will force Bonzi to comment on JVG to defend himself. Now you got a media war....Serves no purpose. Instead, both sides say good things about each other and move on. This benifits both sides.
It's called maturity and common sense.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not sure the real risk of giving a player 15minutes a game until he gets his legs under him. As a matter of fact, that scenario is very common in the league. You think Bonzi's the only player comin off injury? Absolutley not. Great coaches are able to blend a player into the scheme of things, that's why they get paid to coach. Right? </div>

We played him multiple times coming off an injury. And then he'd get injured again. There came a point in the season where we were winning and we needed to continue to win, and trying to work Bonzi into the rotation (yet again) would be a major distraction. Despite that, Bonzi had another opportunity at the end of the season to play his way into the rotation when we starting slumping, but he bailed on the team. He took himself out of the game early in Sacramento and decided not to show up at Seattle. Get it threw your head. Bonzi had multiple opportunities to be a part of this team, and he couldn't take advantage because of mental and/or physical issues.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Bonzi's attitude was so bad, then why did JVG make absolutley no mention of this when he talked about him? In fact he even said Bonzi's attitude wasn't a problem and admitted he couldn't fit him in the system. Which might turn out to be a terrible mistake. </div>

JVG has acknowledged there was conflict at the start of the season, and it was plain to see at the time. Remember the "I didn't come here to run marathons" quote in Miami? He was unwilling to put in the work to get in shape. His time off for "personal reasons" sprung from a personality conflict between Bonzi and JVG.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bonzi will eventually play again, and play well. But I'm still a little sour over JVG's thought that we really didn't need Bonzi. You could tell he felt (as well as you) that, "hey, we don't need Bonzi Wells. Our bench is strong enuff". Even though we've won 2 outta 3, our role players collectivley haven't came to play. </div>

Strong enough for what? It's not like I'm expecting we'll win a championship. I like our chances against Utah, but that could go either way. You know I said that a while ago. I'd be surprised if he get past the second round. The difference between you and me is I don't think Bonzi makes us significantly better. But as long as you refuse to seriously consider his weaknesses as a player and the way his inclusion in the rotation would affect the rest of the team, that won't make sense to you.

With that, I'm officially done talking about Bonzi Wells.

 

<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Strong enough for what? It's not like I'm expecting we'll win a championship. I like our chances against Utah, but that could go either way. You know I said that a while ago. I'd be surprised if he get past the second round. The difference between you and me is I don't think Bonzi makes us significantly better. But as long as you refuse to seriously consider his weaknesses as a player and the way his inclusion in the rotation would affect the rest of the team, that won't make sense to you.

With that, I'm officially done talking about Bonzi Wells.</div>
I'm fine with that. But unfortunatley we're losing playoff games because of Bonzi's absence. Everything I stated that would happen without Bonzi is happening as we speak. If I were you, I'd prolly not talk about this anymore too.