Jazz Crowd Racist?

Discussion in 'Utah Jazz' started by Stockton, May 11, 2007.

  1. Chutney

    Chutney MON-STRAWRRR!!1!

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">I understand where you are coming from. A few racist remarks from someone in the crowd close enough for Stephen Jackson to hear doesn't make Utah a racist state. BUT... to deny that Utah may have more bigotry than most other states in the US is simply denial on your part. Utah is the state home of the Mormon religion which, up until the late 60s was unapologetically racist towards blacks. They conveniently changed that tune when things started changing in the US after the Civil Rights movement. These players play in so many different cities in different states night in and night out and yet Jackson seems to be pointing a finger at Utah specifically does tell you something. Utah isn't racist... and Utah fans, for the most part aren't racist either... but is it possible that Utah has a higher concentration of racists than most other states and that this is reflected in the fans at the games? Most def.</div>
    Utah may or may not be completely racist. The point I was making is that having a high concentration of white people does not mean that most of the state is intolerant towards minorities. There are so many other factors that make people racist.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you saying that religion has had no connection to racism and bigotry over the years? Akira may have made a radical statement... but is it even partially true to an extent?</div>
    No, I'm not saying anything like that. What I did say is that calling an entire religion (and country) "ignorant, narrow minded, hateful, war-mongering, aggressive, and racist" and then denouncing the person who directed those racial insults at Jackson is ridiculously hypocritical.
     
  2. Skiptomylue11

    Skiptomylue11 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Are you saying that religion has had no connection to racism and bigotry over the years? Akira may have made a radical statement... but is it even partially true to an extent?</div>Well it depends on what the religion teaches.
     
  3. Fiyah

    Fiyah JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Utah may or may not be completely racist. The point I was making is that having a high concentration of white people does not mean that most of the state is intolerant towards minorities. There are so many other factors that make people racist.


    No, I'm not saying anything like that. What I did say is that calling an entire religion (and country) "ignorant, narrow minded, hateful, war-mongering, aggressive, and racist" and then denouncing the person who directed those racial insults at Jackson is ridiculously hypocritical.</div>

    Agreed. But again... his statements, though grossly and inaccurately exaggerated, do have SOME merit. A high concentration of one ethnicity often leads to the disenfranchisement of another, and religious fundamentalists do tend to have very segregationist views towards race. No?

    Don't get me wrong. I am not signing off on his statement. Merely using it to bridge the stance that there is nothing to the racial comments coming out of Utah.
     
  4. Fiyah

    Fiyah JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Skiptomylue11 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well it depends on what the religion teaches.</div>

    MOST religions teach intolerance in some form or another. The Christian religion in particular has used religious doctrine to justify and support bigotry and slavery. Fact.
     
  5. djdiggydiggy

    djdiggydiggy JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
    I don't agree with this at all. Sure, black people are obviously going to take a racial insult much more personally, if its directed to their race. But, you don't have to be black, or live near blacks, to recognize a hateful remark and understand that its wrong. Just because no one stood up, doesn't mean they don't care. Maybe they were too timid, didn't hear it properly, or didn't know what to do.</div>

    Well, that reminds me of two particular quotes:

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

    "Apathy and evil. The two work hand in hand. They are the same, really.... Evil wills it. Apathy allows it. Evil hates the innocent and the defenseless most of all. Apathy doesn't care as long as it's not personally inconvenienced."


    Chutney, perhaps you just don't see the entire view of the situation. It is because no one stood up to defy these actions that demonstrates that they don't care. Whether it is inaction due to timid nature, or perhaps indecision, nothing is accomplished and the deed goes unpunished. Until someone does speak up, the person, or persons, feel a sense of support from everyone in their vacinity.

    Tell me this...if one of your friends makes a racist joke (I am making the assumption that you and your friends are Caucasian), do you admonish him for it??? Would he make the same joke around a person of color??? If he did, would you then admonish him??? You see, these things are quite different when placed in various perspectives. Now consider if you were the person of color. How would you feel if a joke was made at your expense and no one came to your defense??? They would be complicit with the deed, would they not??? Now what if it were a bit more serious??? Perhaps a direct insult...now what???

    Chutney, you're one of the posters on here that I actually enjoy reading. You provide alot of insight in a large variety of discussions. I just believe that this is a difficult topic. Not just for myself, or you, or anyone else, but it is a difficult topic because it does cut so deep for so many. It instantly puts some people on the defensive and some people on the offensive, with the difficulty being that one cannot possibly understand the view of the other, and that problem being the root of the entire mess.

    Also, Akira's statements may have been a bit hypocritical (probably alot), as you stated, but I do believe that there is much truth that rings throughout his statement. It was quite a rant against Christianity and America, but is that much of it not true??? A majority of our country identifies itself as Christian, and that should not be disputed. Akira's statement of "america is the most narrow, ignorant, money-gusling, aggresive, war-mongoring country in the world, not every american is, but alot are, and utah being almost all white people then its not suprising that you get rascist comments" is interesting to me, because he provides a point of view from outside of the aquarium I live in. We are considered quite narrow-minded in a world view, as well as ignorant (for a developed country, our school and health systems are incredibly awful, which can be interpreted in a way that shows we neither care for academia nor health). The Christian ideals many embrace in America contribute to what he considers a "narrow-minded" point of view, which is very understandable because of the conservative nature of it. We are indeed quite a rich country that spends far more than any other on excess in life, lending credence to his "money-gusling" (I guess that's how they spell it in Australia) statement. The last two statements I would tie together because they are synonymous, seemingly how "aggressive" and "war-mongoring" would go together. I do not believe those two particular statements can really be debated in light of our lead participation in warfare for the last forty years.

    All that being said, I'm freakin' happy I live in America. I'm really freakin' happy I live in the decidedly Bible-Belt Conservative Blue State of Texas. Do I agree with everything the average Texan does??? Most likely, no. Do I agree with everything the average American does??? Most likely, no as well. But I think a majority of us can agree on one thing...that we're happy we're not Australians... [​IMG]
     
  6. Marbire

    Marbire JBB JustBBall Member

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    djdiggy you're a bit wrong. Just because no one stands up to defy an action does not mean they "don't care." If a short little runt yelled something racist to the Warriors while sitting near me, I would be the first to say something. If it was a 6'4 250 lb man, I would think twice about saying something. If it was repetitive, I would get security. If he stopped, I would probably refrain from starting an altercation.

    Not to mention, remember this is a crowd of 20,000 people. Don't underestimate the social power of groups.

    P.S Has got acquainted with the girl, http://cyberblady.com, how it to you? Only it is fair!
     
  7. Marbire

    Marbire JBB JustBBall Member

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    Just because someone does not stand up to defy an action, does not mean that they "don't care," or that they agree with the action.

    Don't underestimate the social power of groups.
     
  8. djdiggydiggy

    djdiggydiggy JBB JustBBall Member

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    Obviously, they don't care enough to do anything about it. Whether you agree or not with the action, by doing nothing, you are facilitating the action.

    Social power of groups??? If the group does nothing, says nothing, and impacts nothing, then it has no power at all...

    Also, it's nice to see someone I know finally get some pub out there. Deron really cracks up when he sees stuff like people posting on sites (especially the Illinois fan sites) about him. Great to see him get attention for what many of us have seen for quite some time.

    <div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">yes there are bigots everywhere and this isn't the first time this has happened at a sporting event, but Oakland is a much more diverse (culturally,racially, and economically) than Utah....when the majority of the audience has the background of being

    a. white
    b. middle and upper class
    c. conservative
    d. not having experiences with people outside of their race

    You can easily see how racist comments being yelled out can be considered a norm.....</div>

    Marbire, you may not make the correlation between those four choices every single time, but I do believe that if you took someone who was indeed racist in America, they would at least apply to three of those four choices.
     
  9. M Two One

    M Two One Halló Veröld!

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    Go to Europe, specifically France, Italy, Switzerland, Spain and eastern Russia, then you'll come back home and realize that you never knew anything about racism in the first place.
     
  10. Marbire

    Marbire JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">djdiggydiggy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Obviously, they don't care enough to do anything about it. Whether you agree or not with the action, by doing nothing, you are facilitating the action.

    Social power of groups??? If the group does nothing, says nothing, and impacts nothing, then it has no power at all.</div>

    That's the point. A group may cause someone do nothing, say nothing, and impact nothing for many reasons. They may be too timid to stand up to someone they disagree with, or they might think that someone else will say something. The last thing a lot of people want is a confrontation.

    If a 6'5 250 lb man sitting near me yelled out a racial slur during the game, the last thing I would do is go get in his face. Granted, if he kept repeating the insults, I would go get security. So maybe the "racial slur" was only a 1 time thing and the rest of the insults were things related to Jackson and his legal troubles. I find it very hard to believe that 1 person could be yelling out a racial slur and not have security step in. I just don't think it could happen that way. But I dunno.
     
  11. Fiyah

    Fiyah JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Marbire Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">That's the point. A group may cause someone do nothing, say nothing, and impact nothing for many reasons. They may be too timid to stand up to someone they disagree with, or they might think that someone else will say something. The last thing a lot of people want is a confrontation.

    If a 6'5 250 lb man sitting near me yelled out a racial slur during the game, the last thing I would do is go get in his face. Granted, if he kept repeating the insults, I would go get security. So maybe the "racial slur" was only a 1 time thing and the rest of the insults were things related to Jackson and his legal troubles. I find it very hard to believe that 1 person could be yelling out a racial slur and not have security step in. I just don't think it could happen that way. But I dunno.</div>

    lol

    Thats what happens when you don't live in the shoes of the people stuff like this is directed at. I played varsity soccer for four years in college and routinely got called monkey by opposing teams fans in certain areas. No one called security.
     
  12. Marbire

    Marbire JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">lol

    Thats what happens when you don't live in the shoes of the people stuff like this is directed at. I played varsity soccer for four years in college and routinely got called monkey by opposing teams fans in certain areas. No one called security.</div>

    Well it's a sad thing that things like this go on constantly in this country. But I do believe that it's getting better and better. When it happens around me, I try to do something. I think globablly, and I act locally.

    But trust me, there is noone that I hate more than bigots and racists.
     
  13. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I can't remember ever hearing anyone yell anything racist at a sporting event in my life. Why would someone go see a sporting event these days if they hate black people, unless its NASCAR or hockey? Like Dream said, there may be biggots in Oakland arena or anywhere else but if they actually said anything racist, let alone the n-word, they wouldn't be tolerated by the crowd.

    <div class="quote_poster">Marbire Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">That's the point. A group may cause someone do nothing, say nothing, and impact nothing for many reasons. They may be too timid to stand up to someone they disagree with, or they might think that someone else will say something. The last thing a lot of people want is a confrontation.

    If a 6'5 250 lb man sitting near me yelled out a racial slur during the game, the last thing I would do is go get in his face. Granted, if he kept repeating the insults, I would go get security. So maybe the "racial slur" was only a 1 time thing and the rest of the insults were things related to Jackson and his legal troubles. I find it very hard to believe that 1 person could be yelling out a racial slur and not have security step in. I just don't think it could happen that way. But I dunno.</div>

    I've never seen it happen but I would imagine that several people in the crowd would take exception to someone's racist remarks if they heard them at a game. That person would have the whole crowd as well as security on his side too so I don't think it would be scary no matter how large the racist guy was. Thing is though I've never been to a sporting event where there wasn't a huge presence of blacks, hispanics, asians, or other minorities and I doubt anyone would say anything racist in a diverse crowd.

    I would imagine there was more than just one guy yelling racial slurs as well because Jason Richardson also said he heard a lot of them. I'm sure these guys hear them all the time but if anything was made of it you would assume it was more than usual. Its really a shame too because its got to be an awkward situation for the black players on the Jazz who probably hear the slurs as well and are pissed even though the insults aren't directed at them.
     
  14. igotask8board

    igotask8board Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Utah is probably known for its ethnic diversity much like its known for its deep roots in Jazz music. [​IMG]

    Whoever yelled those insults is an idiot because they're basically insulting a little more than 1/2 of their entire Jazz team as well. Some people are idiots. The sad thing is when one idiot says something and they're the same race as the majority crowd, the whole majority crowd looks bad to the eyes of the suddenly paranoid minority. That's why I feel somebody from the crowd has to speak up and tell the loser to shut up otherwise the majority crowd will look like fence sitters who don't care if somebody spouts off and look the other way like it's even remotely tolerable behavior. But then again I don't know all the facts.</div>

    True, true.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    And they still have Brown, Brewer, Collins, and Miles.
     
  15. djdiggydiggy

    djdiggydiggy JBB JustBBall Member

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    Marbire, it's tough to take your point of view seriously when you contradict yourself in two consecutive posts.

    "That's the point. A group may cause someone do nothing, say nothing, and impact nothing for many reasons. They may be too timid to stand up to someone they disagree with, or they might think that someone else will say something. The last thing a lot of people want is a confrontation.

    If a 6'5 250 lb man sitting near me yelled out a racial slur during the game, the last thing I would do is go get in his face. Granted, if he kept repeating the insults, I would go get security. So maybe the "racial slur" was only a 1 time thing and the rest of the insults were things related to Jackson and his legal troubles. I find it very hard to believe that 1 person could be yelling out a racial slur and not have security step in. I just don't think it could happen that way. But I dunno."


    And then

    "Well it's a sad thing that things like this go on constantly in this country. But I do believe that it's getting better and better. When it happens around me, I try to do something. I think globablly, and I act locally.

    But trust me, there is noone that I hate more than bigots and racists
    ."

    What clearly comes across is the fact that you hate bigotry when it is convenient for you, but otherwise, it's ok. At least that is what it seems like. This isn't a cause where there is a grey area. It's either black, or white, and you're not lookin' too good right now. Whether or not confrontation is inevitable, you stand up for your beliefs. And if you don't, you might as well be supporting beliefs that you do not believe in. Like I said, if someone is shouting words of insult and no one confronts him, is there really anyone who disagrees with what he says??? To me, you do not understand this paradox.
     
  16. Marbire

    Marbire JBB JustBBall Member

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    I don't see where I contradicted myself. If there is something going on around me that I don't agree with, I will act but only if I'm am not put into danger myself. Unless of course the situation is very severe.

    "Like I said, if someone is shouting words of insult and no one confronts him, is there really anyone who disagrees with what he says???"

    Yes, but many people don't have the balls to do anything. Although if someone was yelling racial slurs repeatedly in the Jazz crowd, how security was not called is beyond me. I can gurantee you I would have done something, even if only gone to get security.
     
  17. The Dream

    The Dream mama there goes that man!

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I understand where you are coming from. A few racist remarks from someone in the crowd close enough for Stephen Jackson to hear doesn't make Utah a racist state. BUT... to deny that Utah may have more bigotry than most other states in the US is simply denial on your part. Utah is the state home of the Mormon religion which, up until the late 60s was unapologetically racist towards blacks. They conveniently changed that tune when things started changing in the US after the Civil Rights movement. These players play in so many different cities in different states night in and night out and yet Jackson seems to be pointing a finger at Utah specifically does tell you something. Utah isn't racist... and Utah fans, for the most part aren't racist either... but is it possible that Utah has a higher concentration of racists than most other states and that this is reflected in the fans at the games? Most def.</div>

    I agree...
     
  18. Master Shake

    Master Shake young phoenix

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    <div class="quote_poster">Run BJM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I can't remember ever hearing anyone yell anything racist at a sporting event in my life. Why would someone go see a sporting event these days if they hate black people, unless its NASCAR or hockey? Like Dream said, there may be biggots in Oakland arena or anywhere else but if they actually said anything racist, let alone the n-word, they wouldn't be tolerated by the crowd.



    I've never seen it happen but I would imagine that several people in the crowd would take exception to someone's racist remarks if they heard them at a game. That person would have the whole crowd as well as security on his side too so I don't think it would be scary no matter how large the racist guy was. Thing is though I've never been to a sporting event where there wasn't a huge presence of blacks, hispanics, asians, or other minorities and I doubt anyone would say anything racist in a diverse crowd.

    I would imagine there was more than just one guy yelling racial slurs as well because Jason Richardson also said he heard a lot of them. I'm sure these guys hear them all the time but if anything was made of it you would assume it was more than usual. Its really a shame too because its got to be an awkward situation for the black players on the Jazz who probably hear the slurs as well and are pissed even though the insults aren't directed at them.</div>


    Ok, before you bring hockey into this, one of the greatest players right now is black, and candian. his name is Jerome Iginla. Noone is hockey yells racial slurs, it just dosn't happen. Also one of the best goalies is balck in Ray Emery. NASCAR im not sure,i dunt care for it much. But defeinitly hockey is very diverse.
     
  19. Pakman

    Pakman JBB ITS ON ME!!!

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    Yea Utah crowd is predominantly white... so the N word isn't as offensive there. Although I'm sure people with families over there didn't appreciate it.

    But all it comes down to is.... few idiots. It makes the whole crowd look bad. Like someone before said, there are many black players on the Jazz roster. So yeah, it only takes small percentage of people to make the whole look bad. EX: Terrorist making all Muslims look bad.
     
  20. narley321

    narley321 JBB JustBBall Member

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    just what i expect from mormons
     

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