Are you turning this into a Hakeem vs Duncan thread? Seriously I don't care about Hakeem; let's try to get back on topic. <div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">didn't say it was a no brainer, BUT defensively Hakeem > Duncan...and that really shouldn't even be an argument (would Hakeem allow Amare to avg. 37ppg in a series???)....Duncan has also shown to be timid under certain pressure situations...for instance he really didn't play "great" against the Pistons a couple of years ago, yet his team still won (mostly thanks to Horry being the only player to show up in the clutch of game 5) and .....offensively speaking, Olajuwon was just as versatile if not more versatile than Timmy...and Olajuwon defeated Shaq,Robinson,Ewing,Barkley,Malone,etc. within a span of 2 years.....</div> Actually, Duncan has better PER and has had more seasons with 26+ PER (5 compared to Hakeem's 2). Shaq didn't play that "great" in the MIA series, and Duncan's defense mostly always shows up even when he has a bad game offensively. BTW, when Olajuwon beat Shaq, that wasn't exactly at Shaq's peak. Through 1998-01, Shaq's PER was over 30 when Duncan faced him and even reached 30.6 (compared to 28.6 the year Hakeem faced him in the Finals). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> also add on that Hakeem is a better FT shooter and we are talking about something here....can you really name one thing that Duncan is better at than Olajuwon as far as their games are concerned???...I really don't think so...</div> Duncan was a better offensive player for a longer stretch in his career. Are you incredibly biased or what? Lol. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> and Hakeem may be the only player in NBA history to actually put a team of "mediocre" players on his shoulder and carry them to a title.....</div> Not against Jordan but it was still nice that he got them to the finals. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I think you're underestimating Olajuwon...and I'm saying this as not only a DREAM fan, but a basketball fan also....Hakeem also had years of his career wasted in his prime, because General Management couldn't get anything around him once Ralph Sampson had to retire...who knows what happens if Sampson stays healthy....</div> Wow now you sound like a KG fan. But seriously, the Spurs got screwed last year and lost to the Lakers a couple of years ago because Fisher made a shot with 0.4 seconds to go which is quite uncommon. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I agree....Hakeem would never let that happen to him in his prime...Hakeem > Duncan, lol........also I can't help but to point out that the era that duncan has and is playing in is a lot weaker than the 80's and 90's ...seriously would those Knick and Net teams even make it pass the 2nd round in a more competitive era???</div> The Era TD played in is a lot weaker? Once again, Hakeem didn't win anything in the 80's and most of the 90's until Jordan was gone so this means nothing. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> more consistent??...I think everyone forgets that Duncans is about 5 years younger than Shaq...Shaq was a 30 ppg player for A LOT of seasons in Orlando and L.A. and he had a 3-peat and another title in Miami...</div> Shaq has never averaged 30 PPG in his entire career, lmao but I get the point. Is this discussion solely about who is the better offensive player? No, that is why Duncan is in the discussion.
Alright, why don't we use statistics to END this arguement. Lets stop with the coulda woulda and get down to the bottom with the facts. Shaq has played in 140 playoff games since the '99 season, Duncan has 122...okay 18 games difference not much of a arguement. We all know Shaq has 1 more ring and everyone in the world except us Pistons fans think Duncan's getting his 4th this year. Hmm GREATEST usually has a little to do with stats don't ya think? Duncan & Shaq..."Since Jordan" are averaging these numbers in the playoffs... Duncan 24.4 PPG 12.7 RPG 2.8 BPG Shaq 27.6 PPG 13.6 RPG 2.5 BPG I'd stay Shaq won that battle, and the last 3 years have even dropped his averages...Shaq averaged those numbers with Kobe who was also scoring 26.7 PPG. Well maybe I just gave into the Duncan arguement that Shaq only won cause of Kobe. But lets not forget how big of an impact David Robinson had on Duncans playoff run, David Robinson was a 20 and 10 player who also averaged 3 blocks per game. So Tim won with an ageing David and Shaq won with a young Kobe, both who were still playing great basketball. Tim had players like... David Robinson Avery Johnson Sean Elliot Manu Ginobili Tony Parker Shaq also had good players put around him... Kobe Bryant Ron Harper Glen Rice Robert Horry Rick Fox Since Jordan... Shaq was 28 and is 35 now so he had been playing mostly on the down side of his career. While Duncan was 24 after Jordan retired and is now 31 so he had been mostly in his prime, so in a few years we will probably be saying TD but for now its got to be Shaq for me. But like I said before it really can go both ways. They both won with good players around them, they both had HOF coaches (Pop, Jax, Pat), Shaq won the statistics battle, I am too lazy to add up regular season records but I'm sure its pretty close match.
<div class="quote_poster">Detroit Madness Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Alright, why don't we use statistics to END this arguement.</div> Well hopefully stats that aren't flawed like PPG, RPG, BPG... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Lets stop with the coulda woulda and get down to the bottom with the facts. Shaq has played in 140 playoff games since the '99 season, Duncan has 122...okay 18 games difference not much of a arguement. We all know Shaq has 1 more ring and everyone in the world except us Pistons fans think Duncan's getting his 4th this year. Hmm GREATEST usually has a little to do with stats don't ya think? Duncan & Shaq..."Since Jordan" are averaging these numbers in the playoffs... Duncan 24.4 PPG 12.7 RPG 2.8 BPG Shaq 27.6 PPG 13.6 RPG 2.5 BPG</div> Shaq's PER is 27.6 and Tim's is 25.2. Shaq has the edge but not by a large margin. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'd stay Shaq won that battle, and the last 3 years have even dropped his averages...Shaq averaged those numbers with Kobe who was also scoring 26.7 PPG. Well maybe I just gave into the Duncan arguement that Shaq only won cause of Kobe. But lets not forget how big of an impact David Robinson had on Duncans playoff run, David Robinson was a 20 and 10 player who also averaged 3 blocks per game. So Tim won with an ageing David and Shaq won with a young Kobe, both who were still playing great basketball. Tim had players like... David Robinson Avery Johnson Sean Elliot Manu Ginobili Tony Parker Shaq also had good players put around him... Kobe Bryant Ron Harper Glen Rice Robert Horry Rick Fox</div> David Robinson was only good during the Spurs' first title run. Didn't you read Og's post? Parker and Ginobili weren't very impressive at all in their second title run, and they have been serviceable (barely All-Star caliber players) throughout their entire careers (forget about defense; and BTW, Manu comes off the BENCH and averages about 27 minutes a game...). I won't even address Elliot and Avery... Kobe is a HOFer and an integral part of all three LA championships. Shaq even had to ride the bench at the end of games because of his FT shooting. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Since Jordan... Shaq was 28 and is 35 now so he had been playing mostly on the down side of his career. While Duncan was 24 after Jordan retired and is now 31 so he had been mostly in his prime, so in a few years we will probably be saying TD but for now its got to be Shaq for me. But like I said before it really can go both ways. They both won with good players around them, they both had HOF coaches (Pop, Jax, Pat), Shaq won the statistics battle, I am too lazy to add up regular season records but I'm sure its pretty close match.</div> They both DID NOT have the same caliber of players IMO. Ginobili and Parker don't compare to Kobe; and David Robinson was averaging 8/6 in the second title run. Defense is hard to measure with statistics also.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Shaq's PER is 27.6 and Tim's is 25.2. Shaq has the edge but not by a large margin.</div> Tim's is 24.4 I just rechecked.. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">David Robinson was only good during the Spurs' first title run. Didn't you read Og's post? Parker and Ginobili weren't very impressive at all in their second title run, and they have been serviceable (barely All-Star caliber players) throughout their entire careers (forget about defense; and BTW, Manu comes off the BENCH and averages about 27 minutes a game...). I won't even address Elliot and Avery... Kobe is a HOFer and an integral part of all three LA championships. Shaq even had to ride the bench at the end of games because of his FT shooting. </div> During the '05 run Manu and Tony had HUGE parts so thats why I put them on that list. Lets not forget that I could of added Stephen Jackson to the list who averaged 13 points in the '03 run.
<div class="quote_poster">Detroit Madness Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Tim's is 24.4 I just rechecked..</div> http://basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html 25.17 to be exact. The site you looked at didn't take into account this past season most likely. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> During the '05 run Manu and Tony had HUGE parts so thats why I put them on that list. Lets not forget that I could of added Stephen Jackson to the list who averaged 13 points in the '03 run.</div> Wow 13 Points? Really now... Kobe was HUGE as well for Shaq and was First team all-NBA a few years. There isn't an All-NBA caliber player that has played with Duncan except for Robinson (and he was at the end of his career).
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">http://basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html 25.17 to be exact. The site you looked at didn't take into account this past season most likely.</div> Your right...NBA.com what a pathetic source. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow 13 Points? Really now... Kobe was HUGE as well for Shaq was First team all-NBA a few years. There isn't an All-NBA caliber player that has played with Duncan except for Robinson (and he was at the end of his career).</div> If you don't think 13 points is a factor you must have really high standards. I said they both played with good players, I was wrong about David Robinson playing GREAT during both title runs. Now I think its a close race but like I said I still think Shaq has been the Greatest say what you want. Just the fact that teams went to the hack-a-shaq method just to stop him from dominating them, says alot about his impact.
<div class="quote_poster">Detroit Madness Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Your right...NBA.com what a pathetic source. If you don't think 13 points is a factor you must have really high standards. I said they both played with good players, I was wrong about David Robinson playing GREAT during both title runs. Now I think its a close race but like I said I still think Shaq has been the Greatest say what you want. Just the fact that teams went to the hack-a-shaq method just to stop him from dominating them.</div> Just because teams went to Hack-A-Shaq does not mean he is better than Duncan. If he was a 70%-ish FT shooter like Duncan teams wouldn't try it. All that means is that he is a phenomenal player with a huge weakness that messes up his TS%; and is someone that can't close out games like other centers/PFs.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Just because teams went to Hack-A-Shaq does not mean he is better than Duncan. If he was a 70%-ish FT shooter like Duncan teams wouldn't try it. All that means is that he is a phenomenal player with a huge weakness that messes up his TS%; and is someone that can't close out games like other centers/PFs.</div> Most of those fouls were when he was in the post controlling the defender. If Duncan would of shot 50% he still wouldn't of been intentional fouled because his game is not as dominating I'm sorry. Not taking anything away from Duncan hes a phenominal basketball player.
<div class="quote_poster">Detroit Madness Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Most of those fouls were when he was in the post controlling the defender. If Duncan would of shot 50% he still wouldn't of been intentional fouled because his game is not as dominating I'm sorry. Not taking anything away from Duncan hes a phenominal basketball player.</div> At the end of games of course Duncan would have been fouled like that if he shot at a 52% clip. Throughout the course of the game though, you are right, but not in the closing moments. Duncan's dominance isn't just on the offensive end anyway; one can't just use regular stats to end this debate.
Whew... another one of these topics. It really comes down to ones personal definition of "greatest". If by "greatest" you mean player with the most accomplishments then its a toss up between Shaq and Duncan. I don't think you can go wrong with either player. If by "greatest" we mean the player with the best skill set, athleticism, will to win, accomplishments (individual and team), and eye-popping performances over the years ... then its Kobe Bryant hands down. To me.. the problem with using JUST accomplishments and statistical numbers is that you leave out certain intangibles that make Jordan's 30 ppg better than Wilt's 50. For me, personally, when I aggregate EVERYTHING tangible and intangible Kobe comes out ahead. There is a reason he is always in this discussion, much to the malign of many on here: Its because he leads in certain intangible categories that we cannot measure by numbers.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, Duncan has better PER and has had more seasons with 26+ PER (5 compared to Hakeem's 2). </div> please leave PER out of this.....you see what happened with Dirk, lol <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Duncan was a better offensive player for a longer stretch in his career. Are you incredibly biased or what? Lol.</div> no I'm not http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html and http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not against Jordan but it was still nice that he got them to the finals</div> okay and Duncan didn't play Jordan...this is a lame argument.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow now you sound like a KG fan. But seriously, the Spurs got screwed last year and lost to the Lakers a couple of years ago because Fisher made a shot with 0.4 seconds to go which is quite uncommon. </div> I say it because it's the truth...and I might sound like a "kg fan" or a "kobe fan" but the fact of the matter is Olajuwon played with zilch for a good part of his prime.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Era TD played in is a lot weaker? Once again, Hakeem didn't win anything in the 80's and most of the 90's until Jordan was gone so this means nothing.</div> first off just because you don't beat Jordan doesn't mean you weren't great.....and MJ WAS there the 2nd year and avg. 32 ppg in the playoffs the reason the bulls lost wasn't because of "mjs rust" it was because they weren't good enough...but to get to my point the league as a whole deficates on the league now....Cleveland wouldn't get past the 1st round back in the early and mid 90's (when Hakeem won his titles) <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq has never averaged 30 PPG in his entire career, lmao but I get the point. Is this discussion solely about who is the better offensive player? No, that is why Duncan is in the discussion.</div> lol okay 29.87654....but you get the point
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">please leave PER out of this.....you see what happened with Dirk, lol</div> So Duncan is Dirk now? Lol at you. Dirk failed because his PER wasn't as good in the Post-Season whereas Duncan is a LOW-POST player that has performed even better in the playoffs. Shots that are taken closer to the basket have a better chance of getting rebounded, it isn't even close to being the same situation. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> no I'm not http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html and http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html </div> You said Duncan was not better than Olajuwon at anything, so yes you are biased. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> okay and Duncan didn't play Jordan...this is a lame argument.... </div> Your original argument was even lamer because Hakeem has not accomplished much in this "strong" 80's-90's era. And how do you know that a couple of rings back then trumps possibly four rings that Duncan will earn in this era? Don't be a hypocrite. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I say it because it's the truth...and I might sound like a "kg fan" or a "kobe fan" but the fact of the matter is Olajuwon played with zilch for a good part of his prime.... </div> Duncan plays with All-NBA players? Duncan's ability to win with the kind of talent around him is why he is in the discussion. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> first off just because you don't beat Jordan doesn't mean you weren't great.....and MJ WAS there the 2nd year and avg. 32 ppg in the playoffs the reason the bulls lost wasn't because of "mjs rust" it was because they weren't good enough...but to get to my point the league as a whole deficates on the league now....Cleveland wouldn't get past the 1st round back in the early and mid 90's (when Hakeem won his titles) </div> The Bulls didn't have enough time to develop chemistry like they had before though. And Hakeem didn't accomplish as much (as Duncan) when the league was "so much stronger back then". <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> lol okay 29.87654....but you get the point</div> I'm starting to think I don't get the point because you're saying what exactly? That PPG is the true nature in which this debate should be settled? Give me a break.
I can't go wrong with Shaq or Duncan. It's so close, that either argument is probably right. But Huevon you said you would take Duncan over Bird. Don't you think that is a little too far.
Duncan... well he's always proven himself. Although he doesn't put up MONSTER numbers or anything ... having him on you're team is better than anybody else. Gets you the championship, doesn't he?
I would agree with that. Duncan is solid. It's not his skills that impress me -- although there are many -- it's his mental approach to the game and how he is consistently at his best when the moment counts best. He's the definition of a leader and is adept at dominating the game on either end of the floor, a rare commodity in today's game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You said Duncan was not better than Olajuwon at anything, so yes you are biased.</div> how...seriously man can you name "one" thing as far as basketball skills are concerned that you can say that Duncan is significantly better than Olajuwon???....one thing....you said offense and looking at the stats you lose that one (especially considering how Hakeems stats dropped off because of his bum play in the last days of his career)... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Your original argument was even lamer because Hakeem has not accomplished much in this "strong" 80's-90's era. </div> yeah he didn't accomplish much....only 3 finals apperances, 2 rings, 1 mvp trophy, 2 finals mvp trophy,2 defensive player of the year, all time leading shot blocker, domination over the other big men of his time (something Timmy didn't do as well as Hakeem), the best center of his era, multiple all star appearances, multiple all first teams (overall and defensive), an olympic gold medal (would be two had he been a citizen in 92), top 10 in all time steals, boards,points, and block shots (the ONLY player to do so), quadruple double, etc......yeah that's not much <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And how do you know that a couple of rings back then trumps possibly four rings that Duncan will earn in this era? Don't be a hypocrite. </div> are you serious my man....FA wasn't as big back then as it is now, therefore there were better teams....scoring a 100 points was something that was considered normal.....can you give me a reason on why this current era from a team to team basis is better than teams from the 80's and 90's?.....has Duncan had to face any team as good as the A. Celtics that the rockets lost to in the 80's B. The Laker team that the rockets beat in the 80's C. The Sonics,Suns,Spurs,Jazz,Bulls,Knicks,Pistons,Trailblazers, etc. do you think those Nets and Knick teams are better than any of the teams I just mentioned..........can you seriously tell me that. Yes I have stated before the NBA has a lot of great individual talent today, but teams as a "whole" were much better back then.....Duncan is a great player and has accomplished a lot but the era that he accomplished a lot of his superiority in wasn't as competitive as eras in the past. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Duncan plays with All-NBA players? Duncan's ability to win with the kind of talent around him is why he is in the discussion.</div> like you stated earlier D Rob was still really good during the first tiitle run and even a couple of years ago there were a lot of people who thought Manu should've won finals MVP for his performance against Detroit....Duncan has always had a really good supporting cast around him, the fact that he could have an off series (like he has had during title runs) and the spurs still come out as victors says measures about the talent around him.....Tony Parker could possibly be a future HOF if he stays healthy.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But Huevon you said you would take Duncan over Bird. Don't you think that is a little too far.</div> yes he is imo.............Birds mental toughness and clutch ability (along with his other basketball skills) gives him a big edge over Duncan in my book. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Bulls didn't have enough time to develop chemistry like they had before though. And Hakeem didn't accomplish as much (as Duncan) when the league was "so much stronger back then". </div> chemistry wasn't the biggest problem....the fact that they didn't have Horace Grant or Rodman is why they struggled to beat the magic in the 2nd round <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm starting to think I don't get the point because you're saying what exactly? That PPG is the true nature in which this debate should be settled? Give me a break.</div> it was a little post humor my man...I never said PPG was the reason I say Shaq > Duncan, I just used his ppg to support part of my argument... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakeem_Olajuwon ^^^ it doesn't lie.
I'll take Duncan over Olajuwon. I'll also switch to taking Duncan over Shaq just because his knowledge and patience of the game make him a better overall team player. So I'll sum it up Bird>>>>>>>Duncan>Shaq>>>>Olajuwon Huevon there is no way Duncan is better than Bird
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'll take Duncan over Olajuwon</div> why...what could Duncan do that Hakeem couldn't??....what is he better at than Hakeem as far as their games are concerned????....You need some sort of basis on that opinion. I find it funny because whenever I get into friendly arguments with my rival spurs fans as soon as I bring up Hakeem they just shut up and give a little smurk on their face....they know the deal
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">why...what could Duncan do that Hakeem couldn't??....what is he better at than Hakeem as far as their games are concerned????....You need some sort of basis on that opinion. I find it funny because whenever I get into friendly arguments with my rival spurs fans as soon as I bring up Hakeem they just shut up and give a little smurk on their face....they know the deal</div> Well Duncan is better at winning if we wanna start. He is also a better rebounder.
