<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why didn't Duncan produce better offensive numbers? How did you come to that conclusion? Offensively he was slightly better, that means your notion that Duncan does "nothing" better is incorrect</div> me and others think that your PER stat is not the best way of determining what player is better at what...especially considering the different eras they played in and who they played with.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When I refer to "much" I was referring to winning. IMO, 3 rings (possibly four) is just as good as three finals appearances and 2 rings back then. I'd take a couple of MVPs over DPOY and one MVP. </div> not when you consider some of the crap teams Duncan beat for two of his rings......has Duncan ever had 90% of the plays ran through him and maintain to beat off the likes of Shaq Robinson Barkley Malone Rodman Stocton Hardaway (when he was a great young player) within one post season????......and OUTPLAYED them all???.........no, he never even outplayed Shaq something Hakeem DID do, hell one time he got outplayed by Amare.....he never dominated another superstar..something Hakeem DID do (see tim's partner in crime and Patrick Ewing if you don't believe me)....Tim has NEVER and will NEVER dominate both ends of the floor like Olajuwon did...Hakeem HAD to be the best player on the floor if the rockets were going to even come close to winning...Tim has had the luxury of not being the best player on the floor at times yet his team still wins...if Hakeem gets outplayed by Shaq or Robinson we have no titles...Duncan gets outplayed by Shaq and Amare and the spurs still win...Hakeem had to win a title with Pete freagin Chilcutt playing next to him....not a HOF center like D-Rob who despite what you say made a huge impact on those spurs title teams (especially on the defensive end). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kareem/etc. would technically be the All-Time Leading Shot blocker had the stat existed back then.</div> that is true, BUT Hakeem still deficates on Timmy defensively and anyone who knows about basketball will tell you that....we're talking about one of the 3-5 best defenders EVER here..... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't the Suns have a bunch of talent? The Lakers didn't prevent Duncan from getting a few more rings himself? How did you come to the intelligent conclusion that Hakeem was more of a winner so easily? Are you saying that Shaq + Kobe shouldn't be able to knock off Duncan? Shouldn't TD have gone to the Finals last year? </div> Yeah and the Suns also had a lot of that talent shelved for game 5 of the series....if you seriously think the teams Duncan is facing now are better than the teams Olajuwon had to go through in the 80's and 90's then you need to go watch some basektball film. I would just like you to answer this question straight up. Is the league right now (and I mean from a team to team basis, top to bottom) better than it was in the mid to late 80's and early to mid 90's??? I just think it's funny that you take eras into account when talking about Wilt, Russel, and Oscar yet you refuse to do the same with Duncan. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Does Duncan have that much talent around him anyway? Right... </div> dude Tony Parker and Manu are legit allstars and you can tell by the way they've played in this series <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Look at Duncan's playoff numbers, they are more than comparable to his regular season numbers. Manu and Parker were small factors in the second title run, D-Rob was good but not the dominant force in the first title run. To say he had really good talent around him is a stretch. </div> not really....having D-rob down on the blocks helped timmy in that he didn't have to guard Shaq, and it prevented easy penetration from opposing guards. and both Manu and Parker were instrumental in the 2nd and 3rd title run. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So PER is heavily flawed but PPG isn't? </div> yes but I'm not using it as the "statistic of all statistics" when deciding who is better than who with out taking into account a lot of other things...if I did then I'd say Allen Iverson is better than Hakeem....choosing one player over another because of "one" stat is silly.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So Bird can do more at the end of games but isn't as good of a defender. I wouldn't say so quickly that he was the better player. </div> but doing more at the end of games is what seperates Bird from a lot of other great players.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Could you be any more vague? Did you refer to a single game, again? Lol once more.</div> there have been other "soft" timmy moments, especially against the lakers when he has shown his softer side....rick fox even came up with the term of "spuritis" to describe the team....I'm sure if you googled "Tim Duncan mentally frail" you'd find some people who agree with me....the theory has been thrown out before, even when the spurs were winning titles.
You have to give Hakeem the nod over Duncan due to the competition he played against. He played in an era of dominate centers- the likes that we may never see again. Duncan played against an aging Malone and Barkley. The fact that Hakeem was allnba 1st team so many times in this era of great centers is testament to his greatness. Hakeem>Duncan>Kobe
all I'm saying is Hakeem was young when he went to his first NBA finals, and he played great in the series, unfortunately he had to go through Bird, Parrish, and Mchale...yet he still held his own...in turn Duncan played the 8th New York Knicks with Sprewell, Houston, and Marcus Camby......you must take eras into account when comparing players from different eras.
The Dream, I'm personally leaning towards Hakeem over Duncan. (prior to this I'd probably say even), although statistically Hakeem's rpg, bpg and spg are really impressive. In regards to the Duncan - Hakeem debate, I'd say that Duncan's greatest competition usually wasn't in the Finals, but the WCF, and WC semis. Dream who do you think is better Shaq or Hakeem?
First let me say, that I don't even necessarily believe Duncan is better than Hakeem, I just think you make some horrible generalizations. <div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">me and others think that your PER stat is not the best way of determining what player is better at what...especially considering the different eras they played in and who they played with....</div> PER is a measure of offensive pace-adjusted efficiency. The rules in the NBA have helped out Perimeter players more not exactly players of Duncan's ilk, so the impact you are speaking of is minimal. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> not when you consider some of the crap teams Duncan beat for two of his rings......has Duncan ever had 90% of the plays ran through him and maintain to beat off the likes of Shaq Robinson Barkley Malone Rodman Stocton Hardaway (when he was a great young player) within one post season????......and OUTPLAYED them all???.........no, he never even outplayed Shaq something Hakeem DID do, hell one time he got outplayed by Amare.....he never dominated another superstar..something Hakeem DID do (see tim's partner in crime and Patrick Ewing if you don't believe me)....</div> Proof? That sounds extremely dubious. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tim has NEVER and will NEVER dominate both ends of the floor like Olajuwon did...</div> Both ends? Well again, you sound like a huge homer because Hakeem wasn't David Robinson on offense, he was just comparable to Duncan. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Hakeem HAD to be the best player on the floor if the rockets were going to even come close to winning...Tim has had the luxury of not being the best player on the floor at times yet his team still wins...if Hakeem gets outplayed by Shaq or Robinson we have no titles...Duncan gets outplayed by Shaq and Amare and the spurs still win...Hakeem had to win a title with Pete freagin Chilcutt playing next to him....not a HOF center like D-Rob who despite what you say made a huge impact on those spurs title teams (especially on the defensive end).</div> Dream, this is getting to be a bit ridiculous, D-Rob was serviceable in the first title run, but that was it. Timmy won his second ring basically by himself and in their third run, Manu and Parker played well but not to some All-NBA level. Timmy is about to get his fourth ring too... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> that is true, BUT Hakeem still deficates on Timmy defensively and anyone who knows about basketball will tell you that....we're talking about one of the 3-5 best defenders EVER here.....</div> Well when did I say Duncan was a better defender? It still sounds like you're exaggerating like always though. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Yeah and the Suns also had a lot of that talent shelved for game 5 of the series....if you seriously think the teams Duncan is facing now are better than the teams Olajuwon had to go through in the 80's and 90's then you need to go watch some basektball film. I would just like you to answer this question straight up. Is the league right now (and I mean from a team to team basis, top to bottom) better than it was in the mid to late 80's and early to mid 90's??? I just think it's funny that you take eras into account when talking about Wilt, Russel, and Oscar yet you refuse to do the same with Duncan.</div> Again, I didn't say Duncan was better, check the thread (HAH). I simply feel you need to calm down because you continue to make silly claims. Why don't you check out the great teams I've already mentioned from this era? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> dude Tony Parker and Manu are legit allstars and you can tell by the way they've played in this series</div> Dude, Manu comes off the bench. Dude, Tony Parker is Barely an all-star PER-wise, and Duncan has something to do with his success anyway. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> not really....having D-rob down on the blocks helped timmy in that he didn't have to guard Shaq, and it prevented easy penetration from opposing guards. and both Manu and Parker were instrumental in the 2nd and 3rd title run. </div> Manu and Parker did nothing in the second run, check out og's post. Manu was good in the third run but Parker was average. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> yes but I'm not using it as the "statistic of all statistics" when deciding who is better than who with out taking into account a lot of other things...if I did then I'd say Allen Iverson is better than Hakeem....choosing one player over another because of "one" stat is silly....</div> Wth are you talking about? Allen Iverson doesn't even have better offensive numbers then Hakeem for the majority of his career and PER is one aspect of the game of basketball. Lol you're clueless sometimes. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> but doing more at the end of games is what seperates Bird from a lot of other great players....</div> First off, if Duncan and Bird were to play the same amount of minutes, their overall impact on the game would be about the same (given they played at the level of their career averages for instance). Being a great defensive player throughout the whole game has just as much, if not more of an impact. The entire game decides which team comes out on top not just the last quarter. We have to look at the overall impact on the game. Further, Duncan can be clutch on the other side of the ball and a bit on offense. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> there have been other "soft" timmy moments, especially against the lakers when he has shown his softer side....rick fox even came up with the term of "spuritis" to describe the team....I'm sure if you googled "Tim Duncan mentally frail" you'd find some people who agree with me....the theory has been thrown out before, even when the spurs were winning titles.</div> Yeah I know, Tim is human, he can't win every year. For the most part, he's been extremely consistent and took out these "Lakers" with Shaq and Kobe on the roster in 99 and 03. Could it be that the Spurs lost to the Lakers before, because they don't have two mega-stars in their prime? Nah man impossible. Hakeem is soft and I'll vaguely prove it to you; this back up from a rival team said he disappeared in the waning moments of X game in the late 80's/early 90's. Google it bro, I swear.
Actually I take back what I said, I'm just looking over his numbers again, and they are simply amazing. Not to mention being on the verge of a 4th ring too. I dont know what it is about him though, even though he is such a good player, he's just like never really in the spotlight, not like Wade, LeBron, Kobe etc. I guess maybe because of his style of play he just isnt really that marketable.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">PER is a measure of offensive pace-adjusted efficiency. The rules in the NBA have helped out Perimeter players more not exactly players of Duncan's ilk, so the impact you are speaking of is minimal. </div> there are so many holes in this stat though....does it take into account that EVERY play was ran through Hakeem????....he was rarely set up off penetrating guards like Duncan is with Manu and Parker.....I just think that's a bad stat to go by to determine how effective one player is on the offensive end of the floor...no one stat can do that...including PER...Rudy T was no genius when it came to drawing up plays.....Dream had to "work" for the majority of his points. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Proof? That sounds extremely dubious. </div> look at the stats and the on court play....he held Ewing to under 20 ppg in the '94 Finals (Derek Harper and John Starks were big keys in that series, because outside of game 7 they absolutely torched Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell)...and in his head to head with Robinson he dropped 40 on him twice..and for the series he outscored him on avg. by 11......he absolutely destroyed those two.....you must have not payed that close attention to those series, because hakeem dominated both men fairly easy. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Both ends? Well again, you sound like a huge homer because Hakeem wasn't David Robinson on offense, he was just comparable to Duncan.</div> D-Rob is and will always be Hakeems b!#ch, lol......the only other centers that I can think of who were as great (or maybe better) as hakeem on both ends are Wilt and Kareem.....in his prime the guy was amazing on both ends...he was efficient/dominate on offense to the point where 95% of the plays ran through him game after game and defensively he was possibly the best we've ever seen at the position. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Dream, this is getting to be a bit ridiculous, D-Rob was serviceable in the first title run, but that was it. Timmy won his second ring basically by himself and in their third run, Manu and Parker played well but not to some All-NBA level. Timmy is about to get his fourth ring too...</div> Robinsons impact in the middle (particulary on defense) was huge in tims first two title runs. He might not have been in his prime but a player of his caliber even at that age can still have a major impact on the game. Let me put it like this Hakeem had Horry, Chucky Brown and Chilcutt as his PFs in the second title run that means for the most part he guarded Shaq on most possesions, Duncan had the luxury of having Robinson to guard Shaq...that's an impact that doesn't show up in the stat book. Hakeem had to guard the other great big men straight up with no help for the most part AND have the offense ran through him every single time on the other end of the floor, Duncan has never had to do either on a nightly basis and carry his team to a title (and you should agree with that). And a lot of people thought Manu should have won the Finals MVP against Detroit in '05......at times he was the best player on the floor for the spurs during that series, you're underestimating his impact. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First off, if Duncan and Bird were to play the same amount of minutes, their overall impact on the game would be about the same (given they played at the level of their career averages for instance). Being a great defensive player throughout the whole game has just as much, if not more of an impact. The entire game decides which team comes out on top not just the last quarter. We have to look at the overall impact on the game. Further, Duncan can be clutch on the other side of the ball and a bit on offense.</div> Bird was also good defensively though.....not a great one on one defender but he could play team defense (and rebound)...Larry made clutch plays defensively (stealing the ball from Zeke) and offensively (take your pick)....Larry's clutch abilities > Duncan's clutch abilities...if it's a close game I'd take Bird over a lot of players. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah I know, Tim is human, he can't win every year. For the most part, he's been extremely consistent and took out these "Lakers" with Shaq and Kobe on the roster in 99 and 03. Could it be that the Spurs lost to the Lakers before, because they don't have two mega-stars in their prime? Nah man impossible. </div> yes the lakers were the better teams those 3 years they beat them, but I remember specifically in '01 (and '02) when Duncan and D-Rob played "soft" ball all throughout the series (particulary down the stretch in a couple of close games) and repeatedly allowed Kobe to come down the lane and dunk all over them on numerous occasions...........Hakeem would never let that happen repeatedly...there is a reason Shaq, Phil, the media etc. called out the spurs for being somewhat "soft"....I'm not the first to make this claim....but anywho I'm sure I can't convince you on Tim being soft (just like Dirk) so I'll just leave it at that.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">there are so many holes in this stat though....does it take into account that EVERY play was ran through Hakeem????....he was rarely set up off penetrating guards like Duncan is with Manu and Parker.....I just think that's a bad stat to go by to determine how effective one player is on the offensive end of the floor...no one stat can do that...including PER...Rudy T was no genius when it came to drawing up plays.....Dream had to "work" for the majority of his points.</div> If I recall what durvasa said correctly, 15 PER is actually the average player in an NBA season, so Hollinger's PER does take into account inflation it seems. It is quite accurate in explaining offensive efficiency, why wouldn't it be? What holes are you speaking of? PER is one of the most perfect statistics out there. There are more holes in your understanding of how PACE affects games (eg The way you comprehend Steve Nash's numbers). Manu plays 27 minutes a game and both him and Parker are shoot-first guards (how are they setting up Duncan? What a joke). It sounds disgusting to me that you would suggest that Parker inflates Duncan to such a high degree. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> look at the stats and the on court play....he held Ewing to under 20 ppg in the '94 Finals (Derek Harper and John Starks were big keys in that series, because outside of game 7 they absolutely torched Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell)...and in his head to head with Robinson he dropped 40 on him twice..and for the series he outscored him on avg. by 11......he absolutely destroyed those two.....you must have not payed that close attention to those series, because hakeem dominated both men fairly easy.</div> Lol! I was referring to when you said DUNCAN doesn't dominate his opponents. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> D-Rob is and will always be Hakeems b!#ch, lol......the only other centers that I can think of who were as great (or maybe better) as hakeem on both ends are Wilt and Kareem.....in his prime the guy was amazing on both ends...he was efficient/dominate on offense to the point where 95% of the plays ran through him game after game and defensively he was possibly the best we've ever seen at the position.</div> D-Rob is the greatest offensive center of all time. Now if Hakeem happens to be a better all-around player, then props to him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Robinsons impact in the middle (particulary on defense) was huge in tims first two title runs. He might not have been in his prime but a player of his caliber even at that age can still have a major impact on the game. Let me put it like this Hakeem had Horry, Chucky Brown and Chilcutt as his PFs in the second title run that means for the most part he guarded Shaq on most possesions, Duncan had the luxury of having Robinson to guard Shaq...that's an impact that doesn't show up in the stat book. Hakeem had to guard the other great big men straight up with no help for the most part AND have the offense ran through him every single time on the other end of the floor, Duncan has never had to do either on a nightly basis and carry his team to a title (and you should agree with that). And a lot of people thought Manu should have won the Finals MVP against Detroit in '05......at times he was the best player on the floor for the spurs during that series, you're underestimating his impact.</div> Impact that doesn't show in the stat book? Yes you are a hypocrite, let me explain. Duncan's defensive impact doesn't even show in that stat box, so what are you talking about? Is D-Rob better than Hakeem because of his offensive numbers? Duncan is the catalyst that provides the spacing the other players need. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Bird was also good defensively though.....not a great one on one defender but he could play team defense (and rebound)...Larry made clutch plays defensively (stealing the ball from Zeke) and offensively (take your pick)....Larry's clutch abilities > Duncan's clutch abilities...if it's a close game I'd take Bird over a lot of players.</div> Bird is overrated defensively (not a good one-on-one defender or interior presence). He doesn't even touch KG's defensive capabilities. Duncan's overall impact on the game = just about Bird's overall impact, I'm not talking about just the fourth quarter. I don't think anyone should comfortably say they would take Bird over Duncan. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> yes the lakers were the better teams those 3 years they beat them, but I remember specifically in '01 (and '02) when Duncan and D-Rob played "soft" ball all throughout the series (particulary down the stretch in a couple of close games) and repeatedly allowed Kobe to come down the lane and dunk all over them on numerous occasions...........Hakeem would never let that happen repeatedly...there is a reason Shaq, Phil, the media etc. called out the spurs for being somewhat "soft"....I'm not the first to make this claim....but anywho I'm sure I can't convince you on Tim being soft (just like Dirk) so I'll just leave it at that.</div> Every player has off nights, so what is your point? Didn't Duncan get posterized by LeBron in the regular season this year too? Does that mean he's a bad defender, or does that simply mean that since LeBron is a superstar, and he is going to win some of the battles? Giving up anything to Kobe is not being soft. Duncan should have won a championship last year anyway, the Heat are lucky they faced a team that had trouble guarding penetrating slashers (Mavs); among other things.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Impact that doesn't show in the stat book? Yes you are a hypocrite, let me explain. Duncan's defensive impact doesn't even show in that stat box, so what are you talking about? Is D-Rob better than Hakeem because of his offensive numbers? Duncan is the catalyst that provides the spacing the other players need.</div> Yes not all defensive impact shows in the stat box which is exactly why Robinson was extremely important in those first 2 title runs...and I'm not denying that Duncan isn't a great defender, but he's not as good as Hakeem defensively....point blank. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Manu plays 27 minutes a game and both him and Parker are shoot-first guards (how are they setting up Duncan? What a joke). It sounds disgusting to me that you would suggest that Parker inflates Duncan to such a high degree.</div> yes they are more of scorers than playmakers, BUT let's not act like Duncan doesn't benefit from their penetration and pops creativity offensively. My main point is that Popovich actually runs an offense where it makes things easier on his players. Despite what some may say Rudy T. wasn't a great coach, I love the guy but it's the truth. There are members from this board who could've coached those Rockets teams and I'm being serious. There was no creativity to the offense every play was dump the ball into hakeem and work from there. No motion offense, no triangle offense, no backdoor cuts....it was throw the ball into hakeem..........and that's it. I just think using "PER" as if it's a perfect stat to show a players impact on the offensive end is silly.....stats only show so much, and that's a mathematical truth. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lol! I was referring to when you said DUNCAN doesn't dominate his opponents. </div> When he has had to face other "great" big men...no he didn't dominate them or outplay them like Hakeem did. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">D-Rob is the greatest offensive center of all time. Now if Hakeem happens to be a better all-around player, then props to him.</div> there's no "happens to be better" about it my man, Hakeem raped D-Rob in his MVP season....Hakeem > Robinson.....if you think otherwise you shouldn't be watching basketball.
TheDream is right that Duncan never had to guard Shaq and did have D-Rob taking that responsibility from when Duncan entered to the league until the end of the 03 playoffs, and after that had Rasho guarding the opposing centers. Having a guy like D-Rob who was pretty difficult to move in the post and even in his final year he averaged 1.73 bpg, which would be the 16th best in the league today.
Dude.....Hakeem made D-Robinson cry like bitch, no comparison. Like I've said, Duncan isn't nearly as dominant as Hakeem was. I've seen numerous times when Duncan had mediocore games and the Spurs still won. Hakeem had to dominate EVERY night on the court. If Hakeem scored under 20pts in the playoffs, the Rockets had NO CHANCE in hell of winning. He was indeed the heart & soul of that team. If you haven't watched Hakeem play then it's pointless to debate this. You'd have to watch the guy dismantle all the centers of his era to appreciate his worth. Duncan is a great bigman, but he's no Hakeem.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yes not all defensive impact shows in the stat box which is exactly why Robinson was extremely important in those first 2 title runs...and I'm not denying that Duncan isn't a great defender, but he's not as good as Hakeem defensively....point blank.</div> D-Rob was playing 23 minutes a game, he was a solid bench player in the second title run and was averaging 8/6. You make it sound like he was almost in his prime. Duncan should have two rings without D-Rob btw. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> yes they are more of scorers than playmakers, BUT let's not act like Duncan doesn't benefit from their penetration and pops creativity offensively. My main point is that Popovich actually runs an offense where it makes things easier on his players. Despite what some may say Rudy T. wasn't a great coach, I love the guy but it's the truth. There are members from this board who could've coached those Rockets teams and I'm being serious. There was no creativity to the offense every play was dump the ball into hakeem and work from there. No motion offense, no triangle offense, no backdoor cuts....it was throw the ball into hakeem..........and that's it. I just think using "PER" as if it's a perfect stat to show a players impact on the offensive end is silly.....stats only show so much, and that's a mathematical truth. </div> Duncan averaged 25 and 15 when Manu/Parker were average/below-average in the second title run. Duncan doesn't need them. His numbers in the regular season were quite MVP worthy as well. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> When he has had to face other "great" big men...no he didn't dominate them or outplay them like Hakeem did.</div> Hello? Some examples? Once again, I somewhat see what you're saying but you're overstating it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> there's no "happens to be better" about it my man, Hakeem raped D-Rob in his MVP season....Hakeem > Robinson.....if you think otherwise you shouldn't be watching basketball.</div> I said D-Rob was better than Hakeem? When? Are you Rockets fans that insecure? <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Dude.....Hakeem made D-Robinson cry like bitch, no comparison. Like I've said, Duncan isn't nearly as dominant as Hakeem was. I've seen numerous times when Duncan had mediocore games and the Spurs still won. Hakeem had to dominate EVERY night on the court. If Hakeem scored under 20pts in the playoffs, the Rockets had NO CHANCE in hell of winning. He was indeed the heart & soul of that team. If you haven't watched Hakeem play then it's pointless to debate this. You'd have to watch the guy dismantle all the centers of his era to appreciate his worth. Duncan is a great bigman, but he's no Hakeem.</div> Dude..... I think Hakeem is better as well, but DREAM and some others are out of line. The pace at which the Spurs play makes Duncan seem like he had mediocre numbers numerous times but that is just a false perception.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">When? Are you Rockets fans that insecure?</div> Dude, ur talkin about freakin HAKEEM here. He's like a GOD to us Rocket fans. If you could watch this guy dismantle EVERY center that crossed him (including Shaq) you'd have much more appreciation for his greatness. <div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The pace at which the Spurs play makes Duncan seem like he had mediocre numbers numerous times but that is just a false perception.</div> I've noticed a few things about Duncan. He isn't a go-to player like Shaq or Hakeem was. You have to rememeber that Hakeem HAD to have an incredible game every night for the Rockets. He literally had to outplay his opponents for the Rockets to win. I don't see the same pressure on Duncan. He can score 15pts and 8rebs and the Spurs collectivley play great. Duncan is NOT better than Hakeem was, and DAMN SURE not nearly as good as Shaq was in his prime. The threadstarter isn't being realistic
<div class="quote_poster">NBA MAN Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I can't see how Duncan can't be better if he wins the title this year? Its just denial at that point</div> What does that mean? It means he's a team player. But does that mean he can win a championship on another team with different players? I don't think so
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I've noticed a few things about Duncan. He isn't a go-to player like Shaq or Hakeem was. You have to rememeber that Hakeem HAD to have an incredible game every night for the Rockets. He literally had to outplay his opponents for the Rockets to win. I don't see the same pressure on Duncan. He can score 15pts and 8rebs and the Spurs collectivley play great. Duncan is NOT better than Hakeem was, and DAMN SURE not nearly as good as Shaq was in his prime. The threadstarter isn't being realistic</div> I'm really trying to understand what you mean here. All I can come up with is you basically saying he's not as good a scorer as they are, but that doesn't mean much.
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm really trying to understand what you mean here. All I can come up with is you basically saying he's not as good a scorer as they are, but that doesn't mean much.</div> He's not as dependable as they were. Shaq and Hakeem had a bigger impact on their respective teams. The Spurs rely on a diverse collection of players to score, so Duncan has the luxury of having a bad game.
Well let's look at their 04-05 championship during the finals. Duncan's numbers: Win - 24 points (10-22 FG), 17 rebs Win - 18 points (5-10 FG), 11 rebs Loss - 14 points (5-15 FG), 10 rebs Loss - 16 points (5-17 FG), 16 rebs Win - 26 points (11-24 FG), 19 rebs Loss - 21 points (8-14), 15 rebs Win - 25 points (10-27), 11 rebs I don't see the pattern here of them winning when he has very mediocre games, not to talk of bad games. As you can see in 2 of the three losses he scored <= 16 points. Let's go to 02-03 Finals: Win - 32 points (11-17 FG), 20 rebs (and 6 assists and 7 blocks) Loss - 19 points (8-19 FG), 12 rebs Win - 21 points (6-13 FG), 16 rebs (and 7 assists) Loss - 23 points (10-23 FG), 17 rebs (also had 7 blocks) Win - 29 points (10-18 FG), 17 rebs (4 assts, 4 blks) Win - 21 ponts (9-19 FG), 20 rebounds, 10 assists, 8 blocks In wins: 25.8 PPG, 18.3 rebs, 6.8 assists, 5.5 blocks, 53.7% FG In losses: 21 PPG, 14.5 rebs, 2.5 assists, 5.0 blocks, 42.9% FG Again, I'm just not seeing how Duncan consistently has poor games where the team wins. His one game under 20 points they lost, and both his bad shooting games they lost, he also had the least assists in those games with 2 and 3. If we're going to talk about one's team winning inspite of mediocre play, how about Shaq having a whole poor series in the finals and Miami winning? Wade clearly carried them through that. How about in 04-05 while Shaq missed 2 of 4 games, and they swept Washington, and in the games he played he had 19 and 16 points and 7 rebounds in both. Okay, the first game they blew Washinton out and he only played 26 minutes, but second game he had 16-7 in 37 minutes of play, they still won. (Wade had 31 pts, 7 rebs, 15 assts btw). Let's summarize the other series' in 02-03: (pts-rebs-asts-blks) Dallas: Wins (32-15-5-3) (34-24-6-6) (21-20-7-4) (18-11-4-3) Losses (40-15-7-1) (23-15-6-1) LA: Wins: (28-8-7-3) (12-13-7-1) (27-14-5-1) (37-16-4-2) Losses: (28-11-1-1) (36-9-5-0) Pho: Wins: (22-12-2-6) (11-23-6-3) (23-17-6-5) (15-20-10-4) Losses: (17-13-6-2) (19-3-2-1) Again, I can't see this, Phoenix is the closest thing, but when he didn't score he grabbed 20 or more rebounds both times and had 6 and 10 assists. In the losses he scored under 20, and in the second loss, his outside of scoring production was non existent. Also the 12 point game against the Lakers, even with the 13 rebs and 7 dimes, it's nothing special. Now I know in comparison to Shaq, he was putting up 30+ PPG almost every game, but we've established that Duncan is not the scorer Shaq is. Shaq himself had some mediocre games even under 20 points as a Laker where they won during their championship runs.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What does that mean? It means he's a team player. But does that mean he can win a championship on another team with different players? I don't think so</div> No, it means he's a leader and a winner. Who said Duncan couldn't win with other players. You're making some stupid generalizations mayn. Can Hakeem win with different players? How do you know? He couldn't win when he got Barkley on his team.
<div class="quote_poster">NBA MAN Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">No, it means he's a leader and a winner. Who said Duncan couldn't win with other players. You're making some stupid generalizations mayn. Can Hakeem win with different players? How do you know? He couldn't win when he got Barkley on his team.</div> I guess anything you disagree with is stupid Anywayz, Duncan isn't the greatest player since MJ. Shaq is. Why? Because he's the most dominant player EVER and wins every city he goes too. Orlando, Lakers & the Heat all went to the Finals with Shaq. Which means he took two mediocore franchise's and made them both contenders within a year. Shaq's the best bigman to ever pick up a basketball and Tim Duncan is a great player. Game over, Shaq wins. Close thread. NOTE:Although Hakeem didn't have the same success as Shaq, he was as dominant in his prime. You can't put Duncan over Hakeem considering the fact that Hakeem dominated every opponent he matched up with (including Shaq). I'd have to say Hakeem's defense was better than Duncan's, and his offense was as well. Shaq Hakeem Duncan
