<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Anywayz, Duncan isn't the greatest player since MJ. Shaq is. Why? Because he's the most dominant player EVER and wins every city he goes too. Orlando, Lakers & the Heat all went to the Finals with Shaq. Which means he took two mediocore franchise's and made them both contenders within a year. Shaq's the best bigman to ever pick up a basketball and Tim Duncan is a great player. Game over, Shaq wins. Close thread.</div> So Duncan doesn't get props because he didn't get traded and Shaq did? Shaq took teams with good pieces and made them contenders, let's not act like Penny, Kobe, and Wade (who was actually the main guy in 2006) weren't there. Shaq took "mediocre" franchises (since when were the Lakers a mediocre franchise) and made them good, but Duncan made the same "mediocre" franchise good for 11 straight years and a contender every year. Also Wilt would like to challenge Shaq on that dominance claim. All I see is Duncan getting hated on because he's not been offensively dominant by other guys. His dominance comes by helping to make his teams great, but he doesn't score massive amounts of points, or overpower people. Also Hakeem dominating Shaq is something that's usually overstated, his team dominated Shaq's, but he didn't really dominate Shaq on an individual level as people make it seem.
Duncan > Hakeem Dream you stated to me once how Duncan was the closest thing to Hakeem. Yet you distance the two from eachother so much and you critize Duncan and make generalizations about him. You obvioulsy hate Duncan and everyone can see in your statements. Its a lot closer than you think.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I guess anything you disagree with is stupid Anywayz, Duncan isn't the greatest player since MJ. Shaq is. Why? Because he's the most dominant player EVER and wins every city he goes too. Orlando, Lakers & the Heat all went to the Finals with Shaq. Which means he took two mediocore franchise's and made them both contenders within a year. Shaq's the best bigman to ever pick up a basketball and Tim Duncan is a great player. Game over, Shaq wins. Close thread. NOTE:Although Hakeem didn't have the same success as Shaq, he was as dominant in his prime. You can't put Duncan over Hakeem considering the fact that Hakeem dominated every opponent he matched up with (including Shaq). I'd have to say Hakeem's defense was better than Duncan's, and his offense was as well. Shaq Hakeem Duncan</div> What was Hakeem's prime 2 yrs
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hakeem > Duncan close thread.</div> We don't need that kind of simple-minded verbal flourish around here. <div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Also Wilt would like to challenge Shaq on that dominance claim. All I see is Duncan getting hated on because he's not been offensively dominant by other guys. His dominance comes by helping to make his teams great, but he doesn't score massive amounts of points, or overpower people. Also Hakeem dominating Shaq is something that's usually overstated, his team dominated Shaq's, but he didn't really dominate Shaq on an individual level as people make it seem.</div> Great post, couldn't have said it better myself.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hakeem > Duncan close thread.</div> I would love to hear how Hakeem is better than Duncan. Do you have any points to make in that case?
<div class="quote_poster">kobe4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I would love to hear how Hakeem is better than Duncan. Do you have any points to make in that case?</div>The Dream has made points within this thread's previous 6 pages. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">look at the stats and the on court play....he held Ewing to under 20 ppg in the '94 Finals (Derek Harper and John Starks were big keys in that series, because outside of game 7 they absolutely torched Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell)...and in his head to head with Robinson he dropped 40 on him twice..and for the series he outscored him on avg. by 11......he absolutely destroyed those two.....you must have not payed that close attention to those series, because hakeem dominated both men fairly easy.</div><div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">there are so many holes in this stat though....does it take into account that EVERY play was ran through Hakeem????....he was rarely set up off penetrating guards like Duncan is with Manu and Parker.....I just think that's a bad stat to go by to determine how effective one player is on the offensive end of the floor...no one stat can do that...including PER...Rudy T was no genius when it came to drawing up plays.....Dream had to "work" for the majority of his points.</div><div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Robinsons impact in the middle (particulary on defense) was huge in tims first two title runs. He might not have been in his prime but a player of his caliber even at that age can still have a major impact on the game. Let me put it like this Hakeem had Horry, Chucky Brown and Chilcutt as his PFs in the second title run that means for the most part he guarded Shaq on most possesions, Duncan had the luxury of having Robinson to guard Shaq...that's an impact that doesn't show up in the stat book. Hakeem had to guard the other great big men straight up with no help for the most part AND have the offense ran through him every single time on the other end of the floor, Duncan has never had to do either on a nightly basis and carry his team to a title (and you should agree with that). And a lot of people thought Manu should have won the Finals MVP against Detroit in '05......at times he was the best player on the floor for the spurs during that series, you're underestimating his impact.</div><div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">not when you consider some of the crap teams Duncan beat for two of his rings......has Duncan ever had 90% of the plays ran through him and maintain to beat off the likes of Shaq Robinson Barkley Malone Rodman Stocton Hardaway (when he was a great young player) within one post season????......and OUTPLAYED them all???.........no, he never even outplayed Shaq something Hakeem DID do, hell one time he got outplayed by Amare.....he never dominated another superstar..something Hakeem DID do (see tim's partner in crime and Patrick Ewing if you don't believe me)....Tim has NEVER and will NEVER dominate both ends of the floor like Olajuwon did...Hakeem HAD to be the best player on the floor if the rockets were going to even come close to winning...Tim has had the luxury of not being the best player on the floor at times yet his team still wins...if Hakeem gets outplayed by Shaq or Robinson we have no titles...Duncan gets outplayed by Shaq and Amare and the spurs still win...Hakeem had to win a title with Pete freagin Chilcutt playing next to him....not a HOF center like D-Rob who despite what you say made a huge impact on those spurs title teams (especially on the defensive end).</div>
<div class="quote_poster">NBA MAN Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Duncan > Hakeem</div> You're not serious are you?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Duncan > Hakeem Dream you stated to me once how Duncan was the closest thing to Hakeem. Yet you distance the two from eachother so much and you critize Duncan and make generalizations about him. You obvioulsy hate Duncan and everyone can see in your statements. Its a lot closer than you think.</div> yes "close", meaning vesatility wise......Duncan along with Hakeem are probably the most versatile big men to play the game, BUT Hakeem was much better defensively, faced much better competition, outplayed and demolished his big man opponents, and his offensive repitoure was better....that's why I say that there isn't "one" single aspect of the game where you can say Duncan was "significantly" better than Hakeem, but you can say there are aspects in which Hakeem was better....even after his last 4-5 crappy years that dropped his stats A LOT his numbers are similar to Duncan and even better in certain areas. To be honest Duncan if anything is on the downside of his career, his 5th and 6th seasons were his best as an individual player, so you can even make an argument that hakeem was better over a longer period of time....there's just too many areas where Hakeem has Duncan beat in, besides PER what other argument can be made for Duncan being better than Hakeem? I'm a big Dream fan, but I'm also a basketball realist that can give an honest opinion, and honestly speaking I think Olajuwon is just flat out better than Duncan for multiple reasons. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also Hakeem dominating Shaq is something that's usually overstated, his team dominated Shaq's, but he didn't really dominate Shaq on an individual level as people make it seem.</div> that's why I said "outplayed" when it came to Shaq...Hakeem demolished D-Rob and Ewing, BUT individually he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals (something Shaq even admitted to...."hakeem dusted my butt")....that's why I put Shaq behind Olajuwon....while Shaq played great, Hakeem was clear cut better player in that series. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What was Hakeem's prime 2 yrs</div> 94 & 95................ in 94 hakeem posted these numbers 28 ppg, 11 rbs, 4 assists, 2 steals, and 3-4 blocks a game.......that's just insane,...95 was basically the same....check out his stat line from the 95 playoffs 33 ppg, 10 rbs, 5 assists, 1 steal,.........all while facing big men such as Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, and Rodman............that's just not right. ..I would PAY to see Duncan try to play Hakeem in his prime. EDIT the fact that you would ask what were Hakeems prime 2 years makes me question your knowledge on the mans game....if you didn't see Hakeem play in his prime and follow him closely then that can severly flaw your opinion.
<div class="quote_poster">Skiptomylue11 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The Dream has made points within this thread's previous 6 pages.</div> Skip, Dream has made some valid points but has failed to explain all his sensationalist conclusions. Og15 has done the best job in this thread. BTW, I'm not so sure Duncan is better than Shaq anyway. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> that's why I said "outplayed" when it came to Shaq...Hakeem demolished D-Rob and Ewing, BUT individually he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals (something Shaq even admitted to...."hakeem dusted my butt")....that's why I put Shaq behind Olajuwon....while Shaq played great, Hakeem was clear cut better player in that series.</div> Well his team was clear cut better, but Hakeem wasn't.
sensationalist conclusions?....like what?...seriously man I haven't seen one good argument come up for Duncan, besides PER??...I've stated Hakeem faced better competition (fact), was better defensively (fact), had more moves offensively (fact).....these aren't things I'm just pulling out from anywhere. this is for NBA MAN who (judging by that question) didn't see Hakeem play in his prime http://youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0 <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">All I see is Duncan getting hated on because he's not been offensively dominant by other guys. His dominance comes by helping to make his teams great, but he doesn't score massive amounts of points, or overpower people. </div> it's not "hate", my man all around dominance on both ends of the floor Hakeem has Duncan beat. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well his team was clear cut better, but Hakeem wasn't. </div> yes he was.....if you watched every game and followed the series closely Hakeem was better than Shaq.....Shaq even admitted this himself...............I think Hakeem might have been the only player to ever make Shaq seem humble, lol.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">sensationalist conclusions?....like what?...seriously man I haven't seen one good argument come up for Duncan, besides PER??...I've stated Hakeem faced better competition (fact), was better defensively (fact), had more moves offensively (fact).....these aren't things I'm just pulling out from anywhere.</div> Seriously, you still think I'm trying to say Duncan is better than Hakeem? I simply feel you sound like Skip Bayless in this thread, which is why I debated with you. What argument am I trying to make for Duncan? Do you understand what the point of me arguing with you has been this entire time? Understand that when I read about Duncan "needing" a 37 year old playing 23 minutes off the bench and rookies/sophmores with below average seasons I simply laugh. Once again, Duncan could just as easily have another title without Robinson last year. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> yes he was.....if you watched every game and followed the series closely Hakeem was better than Shaq.....Shaq even admitted this himself...............I think Hakeem might have been the only player to ever make Shaq seem humble, lol.</div> If by "clear cut" you mean somewhat better than maybe I can see your point. Seems like too strong a word, and Ballers have to be humble after losses.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What argument am I trying to make for Duncan? Do you understand what the point of me debating you has been this entire time? Understand that when I read about Duncan "needing" a 36 year old playing 23 minutes off the bench and rookies/sophmores with below average seasons I simply laugh.</div> no argument, because no one in this thread has yet to bring up one valid point on why Duncan is better than Hakeem.....I simply stated that Robinson was important (despite what you think) in both of those title runs with the spurs....and I can guarantee you that he probably played more than 23 minutes per game against Shaq and the lakers (if someone could find those stats)........looking back at those series D-Rob (along with Rose and Willis) did a lot of the dirty work on Shaq to rest Duncan on the defensive end and keep him out of foul trouble. D-Rob avg. 33 mpg in the '99 playoffs <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If by "clear cut" you mean somewhat better than maybe I can see your point. Seems like too strong a word, and Ballers have to be humble after losses. </div> I seriously can't recall another time when Shaq was humble, lol...usually he points the finger, blames the refs, or makes some other kind of lame excuse.....
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So Duncan doesn't get props because he didn't get traded and Shaq did? Shaq took teams with good pieces and made them contenders, let's not act like Penny, Kobe, and Wade (who was actually the main guy in 2006) weren't there. Shaq took "mediocre" franchises (since when were the Lakers a mediocre franchise) and made them good, but Duncan made the same "mediocre" franchise good for 11 straight years and a contender every year.</div> I said he took 2 mediocore franchise's (Miami & Orlando) and made them successful. That means he's been successful in totally different cities, different systems and players. He's been the dominant force when need be, and he's also played the 2nd option in his later years. Tim Duncan has been on the same team his whole career, and played in the same system his whole career. The question is can you put Duncan on another franchise right now and they be automatic contenders? I certainley don't think so. I don't think Duncan's the type of player who can lead a mediocore team to a ring (like Hakeem did) or the type of player who can dominate as forceful as a young Shaq did. If the threadstarter's trying to say Duncan's better than Shaq or Hakeem, then it's pointless because we ALL know (except Spurs fans) that's not true. The only reason we're having this debate is because Hakeem's no longer playin and Shaq's career is comin to a end. If Shaq were 1/4th of his old self, this conversation wouldn't be relevant. <div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Also Wilt would like to challenge Shaq on that dominance claim. All I see is Duncan getting hated on because he's not been offensively dominant by other guys. His dominance comes by helping to make his teams great, but he doesn't score massive amounts of points, or overpower people. Also Hakeem dominating Shaq is something that's usually overstated, his team dominated Shaq's, but he didn't really dominate Shaq on an individual level as people make it seem.</div> We've had the Wilt debate before. He dominated during the civil rights era, when the league was segregated and blacks were the minority. Unfortunatley, the league has changed and theres ALOT more athletes now. Shaq's the best bigman ever, Kareem & Hakeem are next and maybe then Duncan. Point blank, Duncan's a great player and future hall of famer. But let's not get carried away here
First off, I believe Shaq is better than Duncan, so this is a waste of time, but anyway: 2003 D-Rob minutes vs LA in Playoffs Game 1: 30 Game 2: 17 Game 3: 15 Game 4: 14 Game 5: 27 Game 6: 23 = 21 minutes a game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> and I can guarantee you that he probably played more than 23 minutes per game against Shaq and the lakers (if someone could find those stats)........looking back at those series D-Rob (along with Rose and Willis) did a lot of the dirty work on Shaq to rest Duncan on the defensive end and keep him out of foul trouble.</div> No. Your memory fails you. Rose is a scrub (6-7 Foward taking the credit for guarding Shaq?), and Willis got very little minutes.
if memory serves me correct didn't LA win games 3 and 4 rather easily (could be a reason for D-Robs low minutes)..in their wins D-Rob avg. around 24 minute per game, which is pretty good for a man his age...I'm not sure what Shaqs minute per game numbers were that series, but the majority of the time he was on the floor Robinson guarded him, and when he was off Timmy received help from other teammates. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Rose is a scrub (6-7 Foward taking the credit for guarding Shaq?), and Willis got very little minutes. </div> yes he was a scrub, but there were times when he did guard Shaq throughout that series. EDIT my main point is Duncan didn't have the responsibility of playing Shaq one on one every time down the court.
The Spurs also lost Games 3/4 because they were on the road... <div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">if memory serves me correct didn't LA win games 3 and 4 rather easily (could be a reason for D-Robs low minutes)..in their wins D-Rob avg. around 24 minute per game, which is pretty good for a man his age...I'm not sure what Shaqs minute per game numbers were that series, but the majority of the time he was on the floor Robinson guarded him, and when he was off Timmy received help from other teammates.</div> So you're boasting about 1 minute more per game against the Lakers? Face it, D-Rob wasn't nearly as effective on defense or offense at that point in his career. And just which teammates were helping out Duncan to this elite degree? Kevin Willis didn't even play every game in that series, give it up. Of course Duncan needs some help to guard Shaq, Shaq is a monster. Even Hakeem couldn't stop Shaq.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Face it, D-Rob wasn't nearly as effective on defense or offense at that point in his career. </div> and no one is trying to say that, but the man still did have an impact on that team.....seriously if you take Robinson off that team that means that scrub Rose is your starter and that also means Duncan has to waste energy and fouls on Shaq on the defensive end.......I think that might have effected the outcome of that series just a tad bit don't you think? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And just which teammates were helping out Duncan to this elite degree? Kevin Willis didn't even play every game in that series, give it up. Of course Duncan needs some help to guard Shaq, Shaq is a monster. Even Hakeem couldn't stop Shaq.</div> Rose would guard Shaq at times during that series...no one is "stopping" Shaq, but Hakeem did a great job of containing him in '95....the only other player that actually received time guarding shaq in that series was a 100 year old Charles Jones off the bench for a couple of minutes. Like I said my main point is Olajuwon actually went "head to head" with Shaq and outplayed him....Duncan had help from D-rob inside....24 minutes is still a good portion of a basketball game.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">and no one is trying to say that, but the man still did have an impact on that team.....seriously if you take Robinson off that team that means that scrub Rose is your starter and that also means Duncan has to waste energy and fouls on Shaq on the defensive end.......I think that might have effected the outcome of that series just a tad bit don't you think? </div> The Spurs did't have a great roster, nor a deep one. In 03 Parker and Ginobili were not that good, the Spurs won without a very deep roster as it is. If you were to take Robinson off, they might lose but not necessarily for the reasons you believe.
