Kobe should take a page from LeBron James' book

<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Lol, sorry if you got that impression but I only meant to say that you have no clue what you're talking about as far as the first five-ish seeds (Western Conference) are concerned. But while we're on the subject, a seventh seed in the West would not be that bad in the East.



Heh, the Mavs always struggled against the Warriors, and the Pistons would be lucky to get home court advantage in the West.

Again, the Cavs beat the East's #1 seed; the West has five other 50 win teams (probably six if the Nuggets stay healthy).

What a ridiculous amount of speculation for a team that beat a Wallace-less Detroit team and got taken to six games by a 41-41 team that would not sniff the post-season elsewhere.</div>

What??? What comment of mine regarding the first five seeds in the west are you referring too? I merely mentioned the first seeds in the East and West in my last post??? Let?s try hard not to pick a fight when there is not one to begin with.

Do not undermine the Cavaliers accomplishment. Everyone picked Detroit or Miami to come out of the East. The Pistons were the heavy favorite against the Cavs. Cleveland fought all odds and won the East. Did they have the toughest road to the Finals? NO! Did the Spurs have the toughest road to the Finals? NO! Did each team get key breaks in very key moments? YES! That's the beauty of basketball.

Would the Cavs have beaten the Suns in a seven game series? Who knows? I'll speculate and say probably not. Of course I don't think anyone in this years playoffs could've beaten the Suns or Spurs. I don't believe the Cavs would have struggled as mightily as the Lakers and been in the seventh position to begin with if they were in the West.

We can come up with hypotheticals and speculate until the cows come home. This is a sensitive subject for many because of the admiration many of you posters have for Kobe Bryant. It's also time to face a sad fact. Kobe has not played the kind of team basketball, without Shaq, that Lebron has in this postseason. Kobe's teams have struggled in the playoffs (enough with the excuses please) and as the team leader he should be held most accountable.

My initial post simply stated that the Cavaliers were a better team then the Lakers were this season?.agree?

 

<div class="quote_poster">emannen Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What??? What comment of mine regarding the first five seeds in the west are you referring too? I merely mentioned the first seeds in the East and West in my last post??? Let?s try hard not to pick a fight when there is not one to begin with.

Do not undermine the Cavaliers accomplishment. Everyone picked Detroit or Miami to come out of the East. The Pistons were the heavy favorite against the Cavs. Cleveland fought all odds and won the East. Did they have the toughest road to the Finals? NO! Did the Spurs have the toughest road to the Finals? NO! Did each team get key breaks in very key moments? YES! That's the beauty of basketball.

Would the Cavs have beaten the Suns in a seven game series? Who knows? I'll speculate and say probably not. Of course I don't think anyone in this years playoffs could've beaten the Suns or Spurs. I don't believe the Cavs would have struggled as mightily as the Lakers and been in the seventh position to begin with if they were in the West.

We can come up with hypotheticals and speculate until the cows come home. This is a sensitive subject for many because of the admiration many of you posters have for Kobe Bryant. It's also time to face a sad fact. Kobe has not played the kind of team basketball, without Shaq, that Lebron has in this postseason. Kobe's teams have struggled in the playoffs (enough with the excuses please) and as the team leader he should be held most accountable.

My initial post simply stated that the Cavaliers were a better team then the Lakers were this season?.agree?</div>
Call it bullshiest. Spurs had wayyy tougher road to the Final than any teams in the East. The Spurs constantly faced teams with at least 3 all-stars. Nuggets with AI/Melo/Camby, then Suns with Nash/Marion/Amare, then Jazz Boozer/AK/Deron/Omeka. The Cavs had the easiest road to Final in the last 10 years.

This Kobe vs Lebron is bullshiest. I don't get caught up in this. When you win, you get praise and when you lose, you get the blame. That is the way it is.

 

<div class="quote_poster">emannen Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What??? What comment of mine regarding the first five seeds in the west are you referring too? I merely mentioned the first seeds in the East and West in my last post??? Let’s try hard not to pick a fight when there is not one to begin with.

Do not undermine the Cavaliers accomplishment. Everyone picked Detroit or Miami to come out of the East. The Pistons were the heavy favorite against the Cavs. Cleveland fought all odds and won the East. Did they have the toughest road to the Finals? NO! Did the Spurs have the toughest road to the Finals? NO! Did each team get key breaks in very key moments? YES! That's the beauty of basketball.

Would the Cavs have beaten the Suns in a seven game series? Who knows? I'll speculate and say probably not. Of course I don't think anyone in this years playoffs could've beaten the Suns or Spurs. I don't believe the Cavs would have struggled as mightily as the Lakers and been in the seventh position to begin with if they were in the West.

We can come up with hypotheticals and speculate until the cows come home. This is a sensitive subject for many because of the admiration many of you posters have for Kobe Bryant. It's also time to face a sad fact. Kobe has not played the kind of team basketball, without Shaq, that Lebron has in this postseason. Kobe's teams have struggled in the playoffs (enough with the excuses please) and as the team leader he should be held most accountable.

My initial post simply stated that the Cavaliers were a better team then the Lakers were this season….agree?</div>

Haven't the Suns struggled in the post-season despite an incredible amount of talent? "No excuses please."

I might agree that the Cavs wouldn't have been the seventh seed in the West, but that is because they have better players around LeBron. The Cavs were FOURTH in defensive efficiency (better than the highly touted Pistons).

The Spurs had a much harder road to the finals, who are you trying to fool? If you just said LeBron wouldn't beat the Suns this year, then why are you criticizing Kobe about that? Lol.

And what do you know about Kobe Bryant? You obviously didn't follow the Lakers because he was making everyone around him better until the team struggled and Phil Jackson asked him to hog the ball after All-Star Break.

 

To sum it up...................

Lebron is the most hyped player in the NBA. The NBA LOVES the fact Lebron made it this far, considering the fact they showed game 5 atleast 30times in two days on NBATV. The Lakers are injury prone and suck as a whole. There is NOTHIN Kobe can do to make his team a contender at this point, especially in the Western Conference where teams like Cleveland wouldn't get past the 1st round. Lebron is good, very good. But he has not risen to greatness yet. STOP COMPARING THEM. Kobe is the best player in the league on a crappy team. Give Kobe a supporting cast and you'll see the "leadership" that you claim he doesn't.

NOTE:Lebron takes 5 shots in the 1st half of game 6 and nobody says nothin. If that were Kobe you'd guys be yellin he's "so selfish". HUGE double standards when dealing Kobe

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tracy McGrady did not get out of the first round either. Is that because he can't carry a team and doesn't make the players around him better or is it because the West is just tough as nails?!</div>

because he can't carry a team............

EDIT

LOL I knew this thread would end up like this *kobe fans united come in to save the day*

Let me be honest and say that I'm at a state of confusion when saying who's better out of Kobe, Wade, and Bron......all of them help their teams in different ways, and to be honest I don't think you could go wrong with either (my mind is always changing on who's better than who)....all I'll say is that if Cleveland finds some way to come out on top in this series Lebron would be put above the other two in my book.....Kobe does make others around him better and with better teammates the lakers would accomplish more, but looking at each of their play of the offensive side I'd have to say that Lebron is a better distributor and passer.

 

lol I didn't say "he doesn't make them better" or that he makes them "worst" (i actually said he makes them better) I just think Lebron is better at getting his teammates involved primarily because he looks to pass more.

 

<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">lol I didn't say "he doesn't make them better" or that he makes them "worst" (i actually said he makes them better) I just think Lebron is better at getting his teammates involved primarily because he looks to pass more.</div>

And thats a reasonable statement to make.

One of them does look to pass more and the other is more aggressive offensively. Sometimes one method works and sometimes the other does. When Lebron passed up a layup to throw Donyel Marshal a pass on the perimeter he was loudly criticised and I am sure there were people who thought "there is no way Kobe passes that ball".

 

it's really tough for me to say who is better than who. I enjoy watching all 3 play and I feel that if I were to start a franchise with good role players already in place those 3 would be my first choices.

 

I'd probably take Yao, or one of those 3.

 

Yao still needs to learn not to turn the ball over as much and he also needs to work to get better position on the blocks.......if he does those 2 things I'd put him in my top 5 of current players to build a team around.

 

This whole debate is getting off topic, but I'll chime in with my own opinion nonetheless.

Do you REALLY think that if the Cleveland Cavaliers had been in the Western Conference, and been in the Lakers position (because I doubt that they would have gotten higher seeds than Denver, PHX, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Utah), and faced the Suns in the first round, they would get to the NBA Finals?

I don't think people realize how hard it is to make it out of the West (which makes me respect the Spurs even more). Not only would Cleveland have to beat a hungry Suns team (not likely to happen), but they'd have to get past the Spurs in the second round (not likely) and get past Utah as well. That's 3 of the top teams in this entire season all obstructing your path to get to the Finals.

Now, let's flip the script and look at the Lakers in the East if they were in Cleveland's position.

They would face the WIZARDS in the first round, WITHOUT Arenas, and without Caron Butler. I would take the Lakers in that series, hands down. Next would come the NJ Nets. With no post prescence, and a disappearing act in VC, I would pick the Lakers in 6 or 7 in that series as well. The only team that I think the Lakers would not be able to beat is Detriot because Billups would absolutely murder Smush Parker and Kobe always struggles against Tayshaun.

Regardless, the point is simple. Cleveland in the West wouldn't even be close to sniffing the Finals. I'm not biased, but it's futile to compare the Lakers to the Cavs when the Lakers in a MUCH, MUCH more difficult conference.

 

the way the cavs handled the detroit series makes me think they'd be okay in the west......the pistons/the cavs/the bulls/the heat (when healthy)/the wizards (when healthy) would be good teams in either conference and could probably beat a lot of the western conference teams in a series.......

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Um, yes. Saying the Nets would sweep the Lakers is just ignorant. The only two players I'm scared of on the Nets are Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson. Vince Carter played like crap throughout the playoffs. Besides the "big-three," who else do they have? No one. They don't even have any post presence what-so-ever, so we'd just do what we did last year against the Suns, which is pound the ball down low. There's nobody on the Nets that is capable of stopping Lamar Odom, he is a huge mismatch, just ask Shawn Marion. The Lakers would have swept the Gilbert Arenas and Caron Butler-less Wizards, and beaten the Nets in 5 or 6. Would they make it past the Pistons? Probably not, but Kobe doesn't have a Big Z, Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Flopper Varejo, or Daniel Gibson to work with.

Also, most of everyone that played on the Lakers this season has had career highs, so yes, Kobe does make his teammates better, just not as much as Lebron. But like Legend stated earlier, Kobe and Lebron are two different players. They have two different styles and roles on their respective squads</div>
Actually talking about the Nets, what killed them was Cleveland's slow paced grind it out game. Odom wouldn't dominate the Nets inside, did you watch the Raptors series? The Nets problem is not man to man defense from their big men, it's the lack of scoring from their big men. Don't people ever wonder why Jason Collins plays any minutes on that team when he can't shoot, post up, block shots, or rebound. Shawn Marion is 6'7, and between 225-230 lbs most of the time, Odom is about 6'10, 230-235 lbs. The Nets big men are 7'0 223 lbs, 7'0, 260 lbs, and even Nachbar is 6'9, 221 lbs, and the first two are good man to man post defenders.

Ilguaskas vs the Nets 11.2 PPG, 47.9% FG, 33.2 MPG
Gooden vs the Nets 10.7 PPG, 45.2% FG, 34.2 MPG
Bosh vs the Nets 17.5 PPG, 39.6% FG, 37.0 MPG

Scoring from big men definately is not what the Nets are afraid of. Ilguaskas for example averaged 19 PPG scored in double digits every game and had 2 games over 20 points against Washington. Now against the Pistons a good defensive team (better than the Nets overall), he scored double digits in 4 of 6 games (same as New Jersey), scored over 16 points in 3 games, with one game over 20 points, and averaged 12.8 PPG, 50% FG. Against New Jersey he scored 16 points once, had 2 games with 13 points, and another with 11 points.

So against New Jersey in a playoff series, Odom is definately not going to be beating up on anyone inside offensively, his numbers would more likely be down from his usual production scoring wise. That is one thing New Jersey knows how to do, defend in the post.

New Jersey definately wouldn't sweep LA though, that's laughable, but I actually like New Jersey better against LA than I do against Cleveland, it's just more of how Cleveland plays. Also in terms of who they have, saying Kobe doesn't have Ilguaskas, Gooden, Hughes, Varejao and Gibson??? is stupid. Since when did Gibson now become a coveted player, because he had agood game/series, common, who would've said this during the season lol. I can understand Ilguaskas as a C that you can post up once in a while, and Hughes a little for his defense though he's not been that good, and definately nothing to brag about from the Detroit series. Gooden and Varejao though, Odom is better than Gooden in every way imaginable, offense and defense, and Varejao gives a team what a guy like Ronny Turiaf does.

I don't think Lebron is better than Kobe, but it's funny that people always overatte and then underatte guys on their team depending on the situation. You're saying Kobe doesn't have Hughes as if he would someone be praised if he was on the Lakers. Hughes put up 7.2 PPG, 2.8 RPG, 2.2 APG, 1.2 SPG and shot 34.1% FG, 44% 3PT against the Pistons. Against New Jersey, 13.8 PPG, 32.3% FG, 37% 3PT, and he shot horrible from the line against both teams. If even a less talented player on the Lakers was playing that horrific, he would be torn into. Imagine Odom putting up those kind of numbers during the post season (Odom averaged 19.4 PPG, 13 RPG, and shot 48% FG as we all know), wow, I can't even imagine.

It's definately harder to make it out of the West. Do I think the current Lakers team in the East would've made the finals? No, I don't, neither do I think Cleveland would make it to the finals in the West, but if they somehow beat SA then that would change my mind.

It wouldn't be the same if you switched it up though, Cleveland would have better seeding than LA did going into the post season in the West. There isn't always a direct correlation in going to the opposite conference and ones record becoming worse as people always seem to imply, and even then, the record difference is more like 2-3 games as opposed to the 5-10 games people sometimes imply.

Cleveland was 31-21 (.596) against the East and 19-11 (.633) against the West, so basically about the same winning percentage, they'd be a 50-52 win team in the West too. The Spurs were (.731) against the West, and (.667) against the East, so playing the East didn't help their record. The Lakers for example were under .500 (.467) against the East, and over against the West (.538). Of course there's other factors like injuries (not for SA though), but it's not a direct correlation as some people make it seem like it is. Cleveland in the West could've made the 4th or 5th seed and bumped Utah or Houston down, but they'd likely be in the 4-6 range, so their first round opponent would be Houston or San Antonio. I'd take SA over them in 6 games, but I'd take Cleveland over Houston.

Anyways, that's all I have to say as I have to leave now lol

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Cleveland was 31-21 (.596) against the East and 19-11 (.633) against the West, so basically about the same winning percentage, they'd be a 50-52 win team in the West too.</div>

I agree.......

 

<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Haven't the Suns struggled in the post-season despite an incredible amount of talent? "No excuses please."

I might agree that the Cavs wouldn't have been the seventh seed in the West, but that is because they have better players around LeBron. The Cavs were FOURTH in defensive efficiency (better than the highly touted Pistons).

The Spurs had a much harder road to the finals, who are you trying to fool? If you just said LeBron wouldn't beat the Suns this year, then why are you criticizing Kobe about that? Lol.

And what do you know about Kobe Bryant? You obviously didn't follow the Lakers because he was making everyone around him better until the team struggled and Phil Jackson asked him to hog the ball after All-Star Break.</div>

Why are the Suns mentioned in your topic? I'm criticizing Kobe in comparison with Lebron because I don't believe Lebron would have put his team in the seventh seed in a position to be eliminated in the first round. I do not feel the Lakers would have made it to the NBA finals if under the same scenerio as the Cavs.

Kobe makes his teammates better. He demands double teams, spaces the floor for shooters, leads, plays great team defense, etc. etc. etc. etc.

This season he simply did not carry his team like Lebron did. Lebron's position in the Finals is a great indicator of that.

 

<div class="quote_poster">emannen Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Why are the Suns mentioned in your topic? I'm criticizing Kobe in comparison with Lebron because I don't believe Lebron would have put his team in the seventh seed in a position to be eliminated in the first round. I do not feel the Lakers would have made it to the NBA finals if under the same scenerio as the Cavs. </div>
Yes he would have. Do you have any idea how many injuries the Lakers have suffered this season? If it weren't for the injuries, the Lakers would probably be a top 5 seed. I really don't see anymore Kobe, or anyone can do with this roster. It just sucks. Period. If you think the Lakers roster is capable of being a top seed in the West, you're kidding yourself. SA, Dallas, and Phoenix are obviously the top 3 seeds. Followed by a great Utah team, McGrady and Yao lead Houston Rockets, and Iverson and Carmelo lead Denver Nuggets. Given the talent level of our roster, and the amount of injuries we went through, how could we be seeded any higher? It just doesn't make sense. All the teams mentioned above are all great than the Lakers. You can't expect a Kobe/Odom duo to get any higher of a seeding. The only reason why we made the playoffs in the first place is because of Kobe Bryant. Ever since the All-Star break, he had to do everything. He single handidly lead us into the playoffs

 

^^^i agree with this also.......to be honest had the lakers been healthy I think they would've seeded higher and made it out of the first round at least........

 

Just because Lebron made his first appearance in the NBA finals doesnt mean that Kobe should read out of Lebrons book. Kobe has won three championships so I guess that Lebron should read out of Kobes book.

 

^^^yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..............