<div class="quote_poster">mmonte4 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">80, 90, 2000s Bird Magic Isiah Jordan Moses Dr. J Barkley Malone Stockton Ewing Robinson Hakeem Shaq Duncan there isnt a very good case that Kobe has had a better career than any of these guys except maybe Ewing.</div> ^^^^^That's a crock of sh%t. Regardless of Shaq, Kobe has THREE RINGS! For some reason ppl like to judge Kobe like he isn't a champion. Without Kobe the Lakers don't win any championships. Ppl also forget how many HUGE shots Kobe hit in that run. On Magic's team, who lead that team in scoring? KAREEM DID. Does that mean Magic isn't worthy?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So? If Kobe had KG, or Tim Duncan, Lakers would probably still have won 3 in a row</div> Nope, nope, we can't say that. You can't just say you put player X and player Z together and this happens. Kobe with Duncan or KG, yea, they would very likely have won at least 1 championship, but to say they would probably have won 3 in a row is insane. Sometimes people forget how everything has to fall in place to win a championship. I've said it before, but if Kobe was with one of these other guys, Shaq's team would still be there, and why can't his team beat them? Look at San Antonio, they've been a legit contender able to win the championship for 11 straight seasons, but have 3 championships, and are in a finals right now. Having the talent to win #1 doesn't mean you will win, and doesn't even mean you'll get to the finals. So to say KG/Duncan and Kobe would probably still win 3 in a row is dumb. To say Shaq with McGrady, Wade, Lebron, Vince etc would still win 3 in a row is dumb. Now of course the Shaq one gives a better chance because he was a beast, but it's not 3 in a row. You can say those guys with Shaq would've won at least one championship, and maybe more, and similarly, Kobe with the other bigs would possibly win one or more championships, but to predict an exact replication of the success, nope. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Give anyone a lineup with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown as starters, and the second best player as Lamar Odom, they wouldn't make it past the first round either.</div> I don't want to criticize you here, but if you put Duncan with those guys, he WOULD make it past the first round. Kwame Brown isn't great, but how much better is Fransico Elson or Oberto. Thing is Duncan's defensive abilities, and effect on the teams defense is much superior to Kobe's, and that alone changes a lot. A team of Smush-Mo Evans-Odom-Duncan-Kwame with Walton and Turiaf off the bench would win ~52+ games or so and go past the first round as their opponent shouldn't be too great. Just look at what Tmac was able to do in Yao's absence, the team was on what, like a 50+ win pace with Alston-Tmac-Battier-Hayes-Mutombo as the starting lineup. If Kobe had that lineup, I don't know if Kobe fans would be raving about anything. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">MVP awards are a joke, and if you haven't figured that out yet, you're way behind. So technically, Steve Nash is better than Shaq O'Neal because he has more MVPs. Shaq O'Neal is as great as Allen Iverson because they all have 1 MVP. You don't judge a player biased on their MVPs, because the awards are a joke. It's voted by bias writers. Last year, PJ Brown got 1 vote, Kobe got 0</div> MVP awards have been very controversial the past few years, but they definately aren't a joke. Kobe hasn't had a year where he's been the clearcut MVP or deserving over all else by any margin, so him not winning one YET (being the keyword) doesn't mean much. Actually last year Kobe had a lot of votes, it was in 04-05 when the Lakers were under .500 and he got injured that he didn't get a vote, and PJ Brown clearly got one from a homer writer and it was a 5th place vote, so it's nothing to write home about. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nobody is saying Kobe is the best of all time, fact of the matter is, he won 3 championships. So basically you're telling me those championships should be eliminated, which is BS. Any player that has won a title had great players surrounding them. MJ had Pippen, Wade had Shaq and the refs</div> This is where I agree, I can't understand how one would say the championships should be cancelled. Now of course when comparing championships, we do have to take into account who the main guy was. Kobe when they won the first one was clearly the #2 option, that doesn't mean he didn't have good games or play well or whatever else, but Shaq was the main cog on the team. The second one, Shaq was still big, but without Kobe's play they definately wouldn't have breezed through like that did. It was a 1a and 1b situation, Kobe did just as much, and of course we all know he hit the big shots, but the guards almost always hit the big shots anyways. Stephen Jackson was the one hitting a lot of the big shots for San Antonio back in 02-03. Anyways, third championship, yea, Shaq was more the main cog there, and he played "better" throughout the whole team, but again, Kobe's play was very good, and it wasn't as much 1a and 1b, but it wasn't a clear #1 and #2 guy situation either. So obviously Kobe's 3 championships are not exactly the same as Hakeem winning one in 1994 with Maxwell as his second best scorer putting up <15 PPG, and even then, neither is Shaq's. But it's more of a situation of being the main cog on the team. Wade for example isn't better than Kobe career wise by any means lol, but Wade was the main cog on the Miami 05-06 championship. I think it's odd when people compare Wade having Shaq to Kobe having Shaq as we all clearly know it's not the same situation by any means. About the bold part, it's not always great players, it's about having a great team, or at least a very good one. Sometimes having great players gives you a good team, but Hakeem who I mentioned didn't have any other "great" player on his team in 1994. Duncan in his later championships didn't have another great player beside him, but he had a very good team, and good players. It's about the team. I don't know, people are always finding reasons to hate on one guy while praising another though.
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Nope, nope, we can't say that. You can't just say you put player X and player Z together and this happens. Kobe with Duncan or KG, yea, they would very likely have won at least 1 championship, but to say they would probably have won 3 in a row is insane. Sometimes people forget how everything has to fall in place to win a championship. I've said it before, but if Kobe was with one of these other guys, Shaq's team would still be there, and why can't his team beat them? Look at San Antonio, they've been a legit contender able to win the championship for 11 straight seasons, but have 3 championships, and are in a finals right now. Having the talent to win #1 doesn't mean you will win, and doesn't even mean you'll get to the finals. So to say KG/Duncan and Kobe would probably still win 3 in a row is dumb. To say Shaq with McGrady, Wade, Lebron, Vince etc would still win 3 in a row is dumb. Now of course the Shaq one gives a better chance because he was a beast, but it's not 3 in a row. You can say those guys with Shaq would've won at least one championship, and maybe more, and similarly, Kobe with the other bigs would possibly win one or more championships, but to predict an exact replication of the success, nope. </div> I agree it's pretty much a toss up. In order to win the championship, you've got to be a great team, but you've also got to have some luck attached to your side as well. I was just responding to mmonte4's comments about Shaq and Pippen winning 3 straight. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't want to criticize you here, but if you put Duncan with those guys, he WOULD make it past the first round. Kwame Brown isn't great, but how much better is Fransico Elson or Oberto. Thing is Duncan's defensive abilities, and effect on the teams defense is much superior to Kobe's, and that alone changes a lot. A team of Smush-Mo Evans-Odom-Duncan-Kwame with Walton and Turiaf off the bench would win ~52+ games or so and go past the first round as their opponent shouldn't be too great. Just look at what Tmac was able to do in Yao's absence, the team was on what, like a 50+ win pace with Alston-Tmac-Battier-Hayes-Mutombo as the starting lineup. If Kobe had that lineup, I don't know if Kobe fans would be raving about anything.</div> I agree with that as well, I think I responded to a similar post in the Laker’s forum. Anyways, the Lakers were on their way to a 50+ victory season before all the injuries settled in. We not only lost our second best player in Lamar Odom, we basically lost all our starting lineup at one point. We were without Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, and Kwame Brown at one point, leaving us with only Kobe and Smush as the original starters, not to mention Maurice Evans was also injured for a stretch of games as well. Had we been somewhat healthy, I do feel we could have gotten a 50+ win season, with a seeding that could have favored us. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">MVP awards have been very controversial the past few years, but they definately aren't a joke. Kobe hasn't had a year where he's been the clearcut MVP or deserving over all else by any margin, so him not winning one YET (being the keyword) doesn't mean much. Actually last year Kobe had a lot of votes, it was in 04-05 when the Lakers were under .500 and he got injured that he didn't get a vote, and PJ Brown clearly got one from a homer writer and it was a 5th place vote, so it's nothing to write home about. </div> The MVP award has caused some controversy lately, I think we can agree on that after the whole Nash/Dirk fiasco. You can't rate players based on their MVP awards though, otherwise, Nash is a better player than Shaq, and Shaq and Iverson are the same level (obviously not true). But Kobe is obviously not going to win any MVP awards unless his team places at the top of the Western Conference <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is where I agree, I can't understand how one would say the championships should be cancelled. Now of course when comparing championships, we do have to take into account who the main guy was. Kobe when they won the first one was clearly the #2 option, that doesn't mean he didn't have good games or play well or whatever else, but Shaq was the main cog on the team. The second one, Shaq was still big, but without Kobe's play they definately wouldn't have breezed through like that did. It was a 1a and 1b situation, Kobe did just as much, and of course we all know he hit the big shots, but the guards almost always hit the big shots anyways. Stephen Jackson was the one hitting a lot of the big shots for San Antonio back in 02-03. Anyways, third championship, yea, Shaq was more the main cog there, and he played "better" throughout the whole team, but again, Kobe's play was very good, and it wasn't as much 1a and 1b, but it wasn't a clear #1 and #2 guy situation either. So obviously Kobe's 3 championships are not exactly the same as Hakeem winning one in 1994 with Maxwell as his second best scorer putting up <15 PPG, and even then, neither is Shaq's. But it's more of a situation of being the main cog on the team. Wade for example isn't better than Kobe career wise by any means lol, but Wade was the main cog on the Miami 05-06 championship. I think it's odd when people compare Wade having Shaq to Kobe having Shaq as we all clearly know it's not the same situation by any means. About the bold part, it's not always great players, it's about having a great team, or at least a very good one. Sometimes having great players gives you a good team, but Hakeem who I mentioned didn't have any other "great" player on his team in 1994. Duncan in his later championships didn't have another great player beside him, but he had a very good team, and good players. It's about the team. I don't know, people are always finding reasons to hate on one guy while praising another though.</div> I agree
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> I don't want to criticize you here, but if you put Duncan with those guys, he WOULD make it past the first round. Kwame Brown isn't great, but how much better is Fransico Elson or Oberto. Thing is Duncan's defensive abilities, and effect on the teams defense is much superior to Kobe's, and that alone changes a lot. A team of Smush-Mo Evans-Odom-Duncan-Kwame with Walton and Turiaf off the bench would win ~52+ games or so and go past the first round as their opponent shouldn't be too great. Just look at what Tmac was able to do in Yao's absence, the team was on what, like a 50+ win pace with Alston-Tmac-Battier-Hayes-Mutombo as the starting lineup. If Kobe had that lineup, I don't know if Kobe fans would be raving about anything.</div> I could sort of agree with everything you said (though Duncan would not get past the First Round in LA with the kind of injury bug that went around this season on a team that lacked depth; and he does have an All-Star caliber PG/SG in SA), but I think you were a bit misleading when you pointed out that the Rockets went on a good streak without Yao (which they did, but that is not the issue). Odom had 17 PER this season correct? I'd say Battier's overall impact on the court can be similar to Odom's. I'd take Alston in a second over Smush because of Parker's low IQ and porous defense. Now when the Lakers were able to play with their starters, they did win quite a few games until numerous injuries (mostly to Odom/Luke/Kwame) occurred. Finally, while Kwame is our best defender, he gets constantly burned by the pick and roll, and doesn't rotate off his man in the correct fashion. Mutumbo and Hayes seem to be pretty solid defensively/energy-wise and fit into Houston's style of play well. Mutumbo-Hayes-Battier provide the kind of elite defensive/"hustle" depth LA doesn't surround Kobe with (or wasn't able to due to other circumstances). Houston was third in defensive efficiency this year (and it wasn't because of T-Mac), while the Lakers were 24th (once again, that solely cannot be attributed to Kobe).
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes seem to be pretty solid defensively and fit into Houston's style of play well.</div> Not really. Hayes is a poor defender. He usually fouls out in games. His defense is not that good. The only thing really he can do good is draw charges, that's about it. But overall defense, NO!!
<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Not really. Hayes is a poor defender. He usually fouls out in games. His defense is not that good. The only thing really he can do good is draw charges, that's about it. But overall defense, NO!!</div> I think you're being harsh on the guy (btw, I edited my post to include more info just so you know). Many big men foul out quickly, Chuck is just energy off the bench anyway (like Turiaf), he doesn't have to stay on the court long. Hasn't durvasa validated Chuck's +/- numbers enough already to show he is a valuable piece? ("YES!!"; as you would say)
Hayes is a marvelous player. I love his energy. BUT, the only thing he can improve on now is his defense. He can put a body on you, but that's about it. He is a bad shot blocker at the height of 6'6''.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't want to criticize you here, but if you put Duncan with those guys, he WOULD make it past the first round. Kwame Brown isn't great, but how much better is Fransico Elson or Oberto. Thing is Duncan's defensive abilities, and effect on the teams defense is much superior to Kobe's, and that alone changes a lot. A team of Smush-Mo Evans-Odom-Duncan-Kwame with Walton and Turiaf off the bench would win ~52+ games or so and go past the first round as their opponent shouldn't be too great. Just look at what Tmac was able to do in Yao's absence, the team was on what, like a 50+ win pace with Alston-Tmac-Battier-Hayes-Mutombo as the starting lineup. If Kobe had that lineup, I don't know if Kobe fans would be raving about anything.</div> You are exagerrating. Duncan is a great player but he is not god. He can't make Smush Parker plays defense or Kwame Bown catches the ball. You also forget how tough it is to be in the Western Conference. I give the benefit of the doubt, with a rosters with no injury bugs this season, and Duncan likely take this team to a 5th seat, but still cant lead them past the 1st round. Here is why. A lineup of Smush, Luke, LO, Duncan, Kwame is not good enough to beat the top 4 seats in the West ==>Mavs, Spurs (assume KG takes Duncan's play), Suns, and even Jazz. There is just too much talents on this top 4 teams.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes is a marvelous player. I love his energy. BUT, the only thing he can improve on now is his defense. He can put a body on you, but that's about it. He is a bad shot blocker at the height of 6'6''.</div> Well when durvasa sites Chuck's positive impact on the game, it would appear to me that it isn't due to his offensive capabilities. He's just a great hustle player, but not necessarily a great defender, I understand that. This is a matter of semantics, he's still a good overall influence.
Well he may have overall good team defense, but I was talking about his 1 on 1 defense. Now, you can't argue that his 1 on 1 defense is good. Because its not. He may have an impact on the court with his hustle plays, but his 1 on 1 defense is not that good.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well he may have overall good team defense, but I was talking about his 1 on 1 defense. Now, you can't argue that his 1 on 1 defense is good. Because its not. He may have an impact on the court with his hustle plays, but his 1 on 1 defense is not that good.</div> Well that's why I said he fits in well with the Rockets. I wasn't just talking about one-on-one defense.
The cavs were able to beat a wizards team w/o arenas, beat an old and tired heat w/o wade at his best, beat a det team on ONE great performance from lbj, basically, beat a tired, old, weak east. So how do we go from THAT to comparing LBJ and Kobe and hating on the latter?
<div class="quote_poster">yudalicious Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The cavs were able to beat a wizards team w/o arenas, beat an old and tired heat w/o wade at his best, beat a det team on ONE great performance from lbj, basically, beat a tired, old, weak east. So how do we go from THAT to comparing LBJ and Kobe and hating on the latter?</div> Cavs played the Nets, not the Heat, genius.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">^^^^^That's a crock of sh%t. Regardless of Shaq, Kobe has THREE RINGS! For some reason ppl like to judge Kobe like he isn't a champion. Without Kobe the Lakers don't win any championships. Ppl also forget how many HUGE shots Kobe hit in that run. On Magic's team, who lead that team in scoring? KAREEM DID. Does that mean Magic isn't worthy?</div> Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Robert Horry also have a bunch of rings. This is the percentage breakdown of the people responsible for the Laker titles: Shaq: 75% Phil: 10% Everyone else: 15% Titles are sometimes won because it's just the right timing. Throw T-Mac in there with Shaq at that point in time. Or Ray Allen or AI. Anyone really. And it equals a three-peat. Kobe didn't do anything spectacular that any other star guard couldn't do.
Lol, I think Shaq had more to do with the rings than Kobe, but I wouldn't give him 75% of the credit. My very vague and not well calculated or thought out estimates would be: Shaq: 25% Kobe: 20% Phil: 15% Everyone else: 40%
Well you give 75% to Shaq, so it seems it requires so little of anything else. Why didn't Orlando win any titles?
<div class="quote_poster">Clear It Out Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Cavs played the Nets, not the Heat, genius. Typical Kobe homer that knows nothing about basketball nor watches basketball.</div> LOL! You're right, but if you think I'm a Kobe "homer" or I never watch basketball think again. I was in a hurry, if anything, there's more of typical anti-Kobe "homers" that knows nothing about basketball. Besides, it's funny how quickly the Kobe haters put everyone who has a different opinion from them into the Kobe lover group, being a little too defensive? I don't know, you tell me.
<div class="quote_poster">yudalicious Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">LOL! You're right, but if you think I'm a Kobe "homer" or I never watch basketball think again. I was in a hurry, if anything, there's more of typical anti-Kobe "homers" that knows nothing about basketball. Besides, it's funny how quickly the Kobe haters put everyone who has a different opinion from them into the Kobe lover group, being a little too defensive? I don't know, you tell me.</div> The longer I spent in the forum, the more I hated Kobe. There's a ridiculous amount of retarded Kobe homers on here, including Kobe's wife (kobe4life). This place has made me insane.
<div class="quote_poster">Skiptomylue11 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well you give 75% to Shaq, so it seems it requires so little of anything else. Why didn't Orlando win any titles?</div> His supporting cast wasn't exactly phenomenal. People forget how great Shaq was even in his young days. I was just watching an old game between the Magic and the Pacers in the ECF. Shaq was AMAZING. I almost forgot how dominant this guy was. They started the game 15-3. Then, Shaq gets into foul trouble. And the Pacers go on an 11-0 run. And it's not like the games weren't close in the Finals against the Rockets. My only knock on Shaq (besides his tendency to get lazy) is his defense. He couldn't defend Hakeem. Shaq has great timing and great reaction time for a man his size. So, he can pretty much block any shot in the paint that he sees. But he's not a good man defender. And on the block, Hakeem pretty much moves like a damn guard. Anyway, it was just a matchup from hell. Winning a title isn't everything. It's just what people look at . Getting to the Finals should count for something. He got through Jordan's Bulls and the Pacers. And the Magic finished the regular season 57-25. Shaq in his young days was unstoppable. You should watch some Magic games. The post, pass out, re-post, dunk/hook shot was unstoppable. There was only 3 people on the floor that could slow down Shaq and that was the 3 refs. Watching some of Shaq's old games led me to believe that there was a double standard when officiating Shaq. (I'm sure most people already know that, but I never really believed so). And to add, Hakeem's Rockets are far better than and old Pacers team, the Nets, and the 76ers.
