rock4life, you think the rockets can actually get david west or that k mart is actually worth his contract? and then u talk about chris webber? i read some of your comments before about juwan howard and hayes. really, you gotta stop. you make yourself look like a fool.
From ESPN Truehoop <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Spurs Won't Pay the Luxury Tax July 13, 2007 11:36 AM Posted by Kelly Dwyer I struggled with a way to take this post for a while, but things are starting to make sense now. The San Antonio Spurs, fat and sassy with their fourth title in nine years and their ability to make TV magic, passed on paying the luxury tax during the 2007-08 season. Why else would they trade the right to sign Luis Scola - considered the finest overseas prospect in these here hills - and an emerging pivot talent for a player who won't spend another minute in the NBA? After signing Matt Bonner and Fabricio Oberto to extensions that will combine to add nearly six-million caucasoid clams to their payroll next season, the Spurs sought to trim payroll enough to eke their way below the tax threshold. Scola is essentially a free agent, but all signs pointed against this potential Loy Vaught-clone (that's a good thing, cats and kittens) staying away from the Spurs due to a toxic mix of lack of minutes and lack of funds being sent his way. Enter Houston; a desperate rival stuck inside the same division, but also one that boasts an unhappy Greek point guard who can't shoot and won't shave and had Jeff Van Gundy turn him off the whole stateside appearance. Vassilis Spanoulis has absolutely zero leverage, his name sounds like a dish that would include pine nuts, and his agent actually told the Houston Chronicle last week that the Rockets could "trade him to San Antonio and he could be the starting point guard, and he would he would say, No, I cannot.'" So, no; he cannot, and the Spurs will buy him out. Jackie Butler's guaranteed contract will lope over to Houston-town and for some reason the Spurs decided to throw Scola's rights in as a sweetener. From there, we ask questions; to the cat, because nobody else is in the house right now. Was Scola's situation so dire that the Spurs were about to lose all leverage and they had to dump the guy? Jackie Butler for V-Span is already a huge steal for Houston - Butler is a darn good pivot prospect whose per-minute numbers (even at power forward, which surprised me) were quite encouraging even as a part of the New York Knick mess in 2004-05 and 2005-06. Isn't that deal, even with Bonner and Oberto's extensions, enough to miss the cap threshold once you buy Spanoulis out? Why throw in Scola? Was I wrong about RC Buford? I'd never seen him with sunnies on until that column was published. Should I have gone with Donnie Nelson? Nelson's signed Devean George - twice. The whole thing just shakes my faith. Either way, the trade is an absolute home run for the Rockets. Scola's reps already told the Houston Chronicle's Jonathan Feigen that he's well on his way toward coming over for 2007-08. I only wish the Rockets could send Butler to a team that could use his touch in the pivot. Stuck behind Yao Ming and Dikembe Mutombo in Rick Adelman's rotation; that's not a good start. And yet, it hardly changes what looks on paper to be one of the more lopsided NBA deals in the last decade.</div>
LOL Rock4life... you should change your name to dumb4life. Honestly, you're one of the most annoying people I know on JBB. You may have some valid basketball points (though it's a rare occurance) but you need to do something with the way you present them. Your posts are very childish (is it really necessary to put that stupid thing in every other post?), very idiotic (K-Mart? You kidding me??? Like everyone said, why would you want a permanently injured player with a bloated contract to be our starter? He's not even close to an allstar level now, never will be again. Besides, we all know JKidd made him look like an allstar when he really isn't), and they pretty much scream out: "Hi. I'm an asshole that likes to argue in the most negative way. " I know personal attacks aren't allowed in this forum and I apologize in advance. But can you guys at least left this up long enough for dumb4life to read? I just can't stand the guy. He's ruining this forum. Thanks.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Given the importance of havin flexibility at the PF position, especially in the west, i think we might have to take a gamble on a bad contract (depending on the talent-level on the player). I'm having trouble understanding where you stand. You'd apparently turn down a skilled veteran powerforward with baggage (injuries, bad contract etc...) over a 2nd round European rookie who's never played 1 NBA game and pronounce him a starter. That's ridiculous logic.</div> Are you serious with your K-Mart proposal? Yes, anybody with any ounce of common basketball sense would turn down KMart in favor of Scola. KMart is not a gamble, he is a DEFINITE INJURY PRONE player. He has never ever played a full season in his career. He's even worse than Camby at this point. You're telling me you'd rather have a fragile, super-injury-prone player with a bloated contract start at PF for us instead of having one of the best (if not the best) player in Europe start there? That's ridiculous logic. Also let's not forget, Manu Ginobili was a 2nd round European rookie who's never played 1 NBA game back in 1999. In fact he was drafted second to LAST. He averaged less than 8ppg his first season, barely averaged more than 2rpg and 2apg. And now look at him, he's part of the Spurs championship nucleus. Might I also add that all reports point to Scola being on the same skill level as Ginobili. That other post by Durvasa (Vegas reaction to Scola) even had a link of Scola being mentioned as possibly the best Power Forward in Europe. That means better than Nocioni, who is pretty damn solid already. You should do your research on Scola first before you make any more idiotic comments. Like someone said, he's not a project, he's 27, a skilled and smart player that will do at least a very solid job for us. He actually sounds like a cross between Battier and Nocioni but without the threepointer. Remember, we already have 2 superstars in TMac and Yao. We don't need our PF to be godly or anything. He just needs to do a solid job and not suck basically. By the way, is it really necessary to in almost every other posts? That just seems childish to me.
<div class="quote_poster">SupraJames Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Remember, we already have 2 superstars in TMac and Yao. We don't need our PF to be godly or anything. He just needs to do a solid job and not suck basically. .</div> I think we need a legit third scorer though. PF is probably not the position to look for it at. SF/SG (since tmac can play either) should be a position we look at to get a 3rd scorer. Maybe not right now because we have holes to fill, but but it is something we need to look into in order to win a title. Maybe James can fill that role (but at PG). What do you guys think? Another Tony Parker perhaps? or is he just to crazy hahahaha.
new needs But we still have Bonzi right? Isn't that enough scoring Since we have Shane at the 3, we only have the point and the 4 thats left up for grabs. So if were looking for some one who can score it needs to be at the point or the 4. (well I think mike will be enough)
<div class="quote_poster">dakeem1 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think we need a legit third scorer though. PF is probably not the position to look for it at. SF/SG (since tmac can play either) should be a position we look at to get a 3rd scorer. Maybe not right now because we have holes to fill, but but it is something we need to look into in order to win a title. Maybe James can fill that role (but at PG). What do you guys think? Another Tony Parker perhaps? or is he just to crazy hahahaha.</div> James and Bonzi are on the roster.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Joe Smith Kenyon Martin Corey Blount Mark West Udonis Haslem Chris Webber Brendan Haywood Mark Jackson You act like since he's some star overseas he'll automatically transfer his starpower in the NBA (now that's foolish). The fact is he's a "project". Right now we can't afford any "projects" at that position. Especially in the Western Conference where we'll see a tough match up almost every night. If this is our final move of the offseason, then we've sold ourselves short.</div>Joe Smith is a Bull. Martin is owed tons of money. Blount won't bring that much to the table. Webber has no knees and can't play defense. Haslem isn't going anywhere. Haywood is owed a large amount of cash. Etc. I don't see why you'd want any of them. The fact is that Scola is considered one of the best players not in the NBA. I've heard a lot of great things about him and I'm pretty sure he'd be ok starting in the NBA. He's not just a rookie. He's 27 years old and already has tons of experience overseas. And I honestly think you're selling him short by calling him a project. Projects aren't 27 years old who already have accomplished careers overseas. A project is someone like Yi, who has little pro experience and a game that's hardly polished. From all my understanding, Scola is not that. So I really don't see why you DON'T want him on your team. But then again, you're the same person who seems to think that Bonzi would have solved all your problems last year, and probably will do so this year since JVG left
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Actually that was David West, my mistake. But lets look at our roster for a sec. Right now all of our PF's are terribly undersized, somethin in which you've completley ignored. When I say "flexibilty", I mean somebody with enuff size to play center & PF and get up & down the court. Somebody who'll bring some energy and can FINISH in traffic (unlike Chuck Hayes did against Utah).</div>You think you can get David West from the Hornets? I think you live in a dream world. He's likely a huge part of their plans there and you won't get him with what you have on your roster. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kenyon Martin would be a high risk player, especially because of injury. But 4things he can bring us are A)Energy & Hustle B)Playoff experience C)Attitude & D)Offensive production. Those things are important comin from our PF position. Has this rookie proven he can do those things on a NBA level yet? Absoltley not. But yet Durvasa's already handed him the starting job.</div>You're very right that KMart is a high risk player, and couple that with the fact that he's probably a pretty low-reward player, a deal for him would make no sense. He's got a huge contract and his game isn't that great anymore. He's been constantly hurt his entire career and it probably won't change much this year. And he's also not even that great on offense. The only reason he's had solid production his entire career is because he played with Jason Kidd most of it (who turned Mikki Moore to an MLE-worthy player). Consequently enough, he had his worst season when he jetted NJ too, posting only 12.9/6.7. I honestly don't see why you'd want him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Allegedly.... Doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue him, especially being he had his best years under our coach. </div>He was also healthy those years. You apparently don't realize that CWebb is a shell of his former self. He's nothing more than a decent mid range shooting PF anymore. He's a terrible defender to top it all off. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But you've already announced him a starter. Huge mistake. What are his plus minus stats in the NBA? Oops I forgot, he's never played an NBA game in his life.</div>Why does that matter? Everyone has to start somewhere. So what if he's been in Europe. You neglect to realize that he's playing against some very, very good competition over there. He's not like most European players that come here either. He's got a ton of experience overseas and already has a polished game. He's not one of those 20 year old projects. He's a 27 year old Euroleague vet that is more than ready to produce in the NBA.
<div class="quote_poster">Moo2K4 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Why does that matter? Everyone has to start somewhere. So what if he's been in Europe. You neglect to realize that he's playing against some very, very good competition over there. He's not like most European players that come here either. He's got a ton of experience overseas and already has a polished game. He's not one of those 20 year old projects. He's a 27 year old Euroleague vet that is more than ready to produce in the NBA.</div> Agreed, he's one of the best players (top 3) in the best Euro league. He's also come up big in some big international competitions. I think he'll make a bigger impact than a lot of the other lottery picks in a pretty deep rookie class.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You're living in a dream world if you think New Orleans is going to trade David West to a divisional rival for our spare parts. What can we possibly offer for a player of his caliber? Get real.</div> Stop twisting my words. You asked me who I thought could help us, and I gave you a list. David West might not be available, but somebody in the same mold would be great. Whether via trade, or free agency, it's not impossible to get a solid PF on the Rockets. It seems EVERYBODY in here has made up their mind that Scola's gonna contribute. But if he doesn't, I predict all you guys (especially Foo82) to start backtrackin by midseason. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Kenyon Martin is owed $45 million dollars over the next three years and he played 2 games last year. He's not even an option for us. The Rockets would be the laughing stock of the league if they actually pursued that.</div> If they decided to start Chuck Hayes again next season, I can see us being laughed at. But in reality, if Martin could play 67-72 games for us I'd be fine. He's talented enuff to get the job done. Plus his toughness is somethin we could use. I predict him to have a monster season next year. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">This is funny, coming from someone who thought we could solve our PF issue via the draft.</div> Post my quote where I said that. That never came out my mouth.....................However, what I did imply was we could've definatley added some much needed size to our roster. When you virtually have no PF, it would be nice to add a young athletic stud. The problem I had was when you stated "Scola should be a starter" for us. That's ridiculous! Regardless of how old he is, he's gonna struggle his first few years. If he doesn't produce, then all of you will get a big "I TOLD YA SO" from me. If I'm wrong, I guess you'll be the judge. I can't wait <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Pursue him with what? What kind of deal do you think we can pull off to acquire Chris Webber? </div> That's not the question. The question is what will Webber sacrifice to come play for his old coach Rick Adelman. We'll have to see....But it's not impossible <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Who am I to accounce the starter? He should be capable of stepping in as a starter based on all the reports about him. But I'm not against us looking for another PF to compete for the starting job. That doesn't mean I support saddling ourselves with another dumb contract for an aging, over-the-hill player. Good teams don't do that.</div> Well to bad you didn't say that from the beginning. Demanding a rookie start for a us is silly & foolish of you. Depending on what we're getting, we might have to take a risk to get that "under the radar" player to start for us at PF. If Kenyon Martin comes back with a monster year, this whole board's gonna feel really pathetic (but me ).
Your whole argument is based on if's. What would you call a breakout season for Martin? 20/10? This is a guy who's had two microfracture surgeries in around one year. His best season was 17 and 10 in New Jersey, and after these past surgeries, how explosive do you think he'll be? His whole game was built on his athleticism, and that's not going to be very impressive at least in the early going. So in your theory, "If Kenyon Martin [or plug in Luis Scola] comes back with a terrible year, this whole board's gonna feel like geniuses (but [you] )."
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Stop twisting my words. You asked me who I thought could help us, and I gave you a list. David West might not be available, but somebody in the same mold would be great.</div> Obviously, you need to list players who can actually be realistically acquired. Just listing players without any thought to how we'd trade for them or whether we can afford them is ridiculous. Or do think you there's someone "in the same mold" as David West just waiting to be picked up from the D-league? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post"> If they decided to start Chuck Hayes again next season, I can see us being laughed at. But in reality, if Martin could play 67-72 games for us I'd be fine. He's talented enuff to get the job done. Plus his toughness is somethin we could use. I predict him to have a monster season next year. </div> He's owed 45 million over the next 3 years. Who do you want to give up for him? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Post my quote where I said that. That never came out my mouth.</div> This is what you said: "I like Brooks. But we're really gambling by not taking a PF/C in the draft. Now we have to reshape our whole roster just to get another bigman. I'm not saying we need an allstar PF. But maybe a tweener who can play both positions of PF & Center." This seems to imply that if we did draft a PF/C with the 26th pick then wouldn't have needed to make a major push for another bigman (like you're currently advocating). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">However, what I did imply was we could've definatley added some much needed size to our roster. When you virtually have no PF, it would be nice to add a young athletic stud.</div> Like who? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The problem I had was when you stated "Scola should be a starter" for us. That's ridiculous! Regardless of how old he is, he's gonna struggle his first few years. If he doesn't produce, then all of you will get a big "I TOLD YA SO" from me. If I'm wrong, I guess you'll be the judge. I can't wait </div> You said we didn't have a starting PF, and you referred derisively to Chuck Hayes, Butler, and "the rookie". I thought you meant Landry when you said "the rookie", and you were just glossing over Scola. That's why I mentioned him and said "there's your starter" -- anticipating that he will be the starting PF. I NEVER said Scola should be the starter. I'll make that determination in the preseason. But given his credentials and his skillset, I think he'll probably end up in that role. I'm optimistic that he'll play well for us, but until I actually watch him play I'm not predicting anything. Got it? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's not the question. The question is what will Webber sacrifice to come play for his old coach Rick Adelman. We'll have to see....But it's not impossible.</div> Sure. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well to bad you didn't say that from the beginning. Demanding a rookie start for a us is silly & foolish of you.</div> I never demanded it. BTW, totally dismissing a player as a non-factor without having watched him play is certainly silly & foolish. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Depending on what we're getting, we might have to take a risk to get that "under the radar" player to start for us at PF.</div> Kenyon Martin isn't worth the risk (worst case -- we torpedo the franchise by trading for a hobbled player with a $45 million dollar contract). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Kenyon Martin comes back with a monster year, this whole board's gonna feel really pathetic (but me ).</div> Kenyon Martin would have to play at an all-star level to justify any trade for him. If he doesn't play at that level, I hope you feel like an imbecile for actually wanting us to go after him.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Stop twisting my words. You asked me who I thought could help us, and I gave you a list. David West might not be available, but somebody in the same mold would be great. Whether via trade, or free agency, it's not impossible to get a solid PF on the Rockets. It seems EVERYBODY in here has made up their mind that Scola's gonna contribute. But if he doesn't, I predict all you guys (especially Foo82) to start backtrackin by midseason. </div> Interesting...i might be misunderstanding you, but if someone asked you "who do you think could help us?" and you gave a list of players based on players you thought would be could without considering how to attain them, then you would obviously have players like Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, and Shawn Marion on that list because all three could definately help us. You could say that oo that is unrealistic, but so is David West and Udonis Haslem...and honestly any player of their mold would obviously ask for alot more money than we have to offer. Any player that would be like that in the draft would obviously go high in the draft (Example : greg oden's similarity to david robinson and brandon wright's similarity to Kevin Garnett). The fact of the matter is even those guys would be rookies. The solid veterans you mentioned aren't gonna cut it. You can look at Kenyon Martin's upside all you want, but he will never ever give you the number of games you need. Scola is your ideal player Rock4life. He is TOUGH, has EXPERIENCE in the olympics agains NBA compition and foriegn compitition, and can SCORE AND DEFEND.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If they decided to start Chuck Hayes again next season, I can see us being laughed at. But in reality, if Martin could play 67-72 games for us I'd be fine. He's talented enuff to get the job done. Plus his toughness is somethin we could use. I predict him to have a monster season next year.</div>Who in gods name are you going to give up to get KMart? Unless you give up a huge chunk of your roster, you can't even come close to his contract. He's owed $45mil for the next three years, averaging out to $15mil per. Who do you have, outside of TMac and Yao, that can cover that? You'd have to give up at least 3 or 4 players, and if you did, you'd be complete fools. KMart is done. No one that has that many serious injuries ever comes back to what he was. He's not going to be nearly as explosive, which kills him on both ends of the court. The reason he was a 15/8 type of guy was because of two things, his athletic abiliity and Jason Kidd. The injuries are going to hurt his athletic ability, and sorry to say, but Mike James is no Jason Kidd. You'd be lucky to get 10/5 out of him at his state, probably something Scola could do, and at a lot cheaper. He's a waste of money and again, you'd be foolish and the laughing stock of the league if you did this. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Post my quote where I said that. That never came out my mouth.....................However, what I did imply was we could've definatley added some much needed size to our roster. When you virtually have no PF, it would be nice to add a young athletic stud. The problem I had was when you stated "Scola should be a starter" for us. That's ridiculous! Regardless of how old he is, he's gonna struggle his first few years. If he doesn't produce, then all of you will get a big "I TOLD YA SO" from me. If I'm wrong, I guess you'll be the judge. I can't wait </div>What makes you think he'll struggle? Cause he wasn't in the NBA? I hate to break this to you, but not all rookies struggle. Point in case would be the likes of Brandon Roy. Straight out of college and had a terrific rookie season. Andres Nocioni came from overseas and his first season in the NBA he was an impact rookie. Ben Gordon and Luol Deng each had huge rookie seasons. Dwayne Wade, Kirk Hinrich, Chris Bosh, Manu Ginobli, Jason Kidd, Jim Jackson, etc, etc. Do I need to go on? Tons and tons of rookies have come and gone along the years and had productive rookie seasons. Why can't Scola do the same? He's been playing professionally in some of the top leagues overseas for a couple years now, so to say he's not ready is ridiculous. He's by far one of the best talents out there that's not in the NBA and he's more than NBA ready, you just don't want to admit it. You realize there's at least a handfull of other teams that would be more than happy to take him off your hands right? I just don't see why you can't understand that he can and should contribute immediately, simply because he already has an NBA ready game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's not the question. The question is what will Webber sacrifice to come play for his old coach Rick Adelman. We'll have to see....But it's not impossible</div>What is your infatuation with Webber? He's old and not very effective anymore. And do you really want someone with no legs having to defend the likes of Carlos Boozer and Elton Brand four times a year? I wouldn't. The fact of the matter is that he's going to give up just as much as he gets, if not more. He's terrible on defense and his offense has been reduced to an inconsistent mid range jumper with the occasional post up. He's not worth the time or money, but you apparently don't realize that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well to bad you didn't say that from the beginning. Demanding a rookie start for a us is silly & foolish of you. Depending on what we're getting, we might have to take a risk to get that "under the radar" player to start for us at PF. If Kenyon Martin comes back with a monster year, this whole board's gonna feel really pathetic (but me ).</div>If KMart comes back for a monster year I'll be shocked. I'll be shocked if he's even the opening day starter. He's going to reduced to 6th man at best this year, especially after how well Nene played at the end of last year. He's washed up, that's all there is to it. He's got bad knees and a long run of injuries, and if he plays more than 55 games I'll be shocked. Top it off with a bad contract and he's just a huge waste of cash. And why is it foolish to demand a rookie to start? It happens all the time. So are you saying it was foolish for the Blazers to force Roy to start last year? Was it foolish for the Bulls to make Elton Brand their focal point his rookie year? I just don't get your logic with this whole situation, and why you're so against Scola being a starter when he's got an NBA ready game.
Rock4Life, where would you set the bar at for Kenyon Martin to "have a monster season" next year? How about Scola? Let's settle this right now by putting everything in writing and see who's the bonehead. Let's keep in mind the number of games and minutes played also. You better have a "monster" numbers for KMart and really "non-contributing" numbers for Scola since that's your stand. <font color=""Red"">Please, no name calling on the boards. If you're going to do it, you will have to face consequences at some point, so please, keep personal feelings about someone to yourself and consider this a warning. Note that I edited your post as well. Moo2K4 JBB Moderator</font>
<div class="quote_poster">SupraJames Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Rock4Life, where would you set the bar at for Kenyon Martin to "have a monster season" next year? How about Scola? Let's settle this right now by putting everything in writing and see who's the bonehead. Let's keep in mind the number of games and minutes played also. You better have a "monster" numbers for KMart and really "non-contributing" numbers for Scola since that's your stand.</div> The numbers thing isn't going to work with Rock4life. Trust me. We went through this last year with Juwan Howard and Chuck Hayes.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The numbers thing isn't going to work with Rock4life. Trust me. We went through this last year with Juwan Howard and Chuck Hayes.</div> Haha. Funny thing was he didn't even bother criticizing the trade. Guess thats his way of conceding...
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The numbers thing isn't going to work with Rock4life. Trust me. We went through this last year with Juwan Howard and Chuck Hayes.</div> I see.. this man is hopeless then. One of those annoying, stubborn, won't-concede-even-when-i'm-wrong-cause-i-feel-smarter-than-everyone guy I suppose.
