This is sooooooooo funny to me. Practically the same thing happened when the whole board pronounced Juwan Howard as "inefficient", "washed up" & "too old" to contribute before last season. Then when he stepped up by midseason, you guys flipped flopped like George Bush. My only concern is if ya'll are wrong about Scola, are you gonna whine about Rock4life bringing it back up by midseason (like you did Juwan Howard). NOTE:I'd also like to mention how some of the SAME guys criticizing Rock4life now, said the same things when I was bashing FORMER coach JVG early in the season. Seems some ppl don't learn Here are my positions: -I'm nuetral on the trade -Scola's not a scrub, but not good enuff to start for the Rockets -We still need to make a move for a PF -Kenyon Martin will have a great season next year
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Here are my positions: -I'm nuetral on the trade -Scola's not a scrub, but not good enuff to start for the Rockets -We still need to make a move for a PF -Kenyon Martin will have a great season next year</div> This thread needs to be dug back up at the end of the season...
<div class="quote_poster">chinlessbob Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">rock4life, you think the rockets can actually get david west or that k mart is actually worth his contract? and then u talk about chris webber? i read some of your comments before about juwan howard and hayes. really, you gotta stop. you make yourself look like a fool.</div> Actually not. I stick by my assertion that Howard was the better player outta the 2. Also I stated he had the better overrall season, he contributed more. I did underestimate Hayes, sayin he was a scrub. But my main point was we weren't gonna go far in the playoffs with Chuck starting. If you really look at it from a realistic perspective, I was the ONLY one who supported Juwan Howard before the season. I was the ONLY one who lashed out against JVG's style of play early in the season (even when we were winning). I was also the ONLY one who predicted he'd be fired early in the season. At the same everybody saying "Rock4life's a fool". It's the same song this time as well............. <div class="quote_poster">johnny33 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">This thread needs to be dug back up at the end of the season...</div> I can't wait
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">This is sooooooooo funny to me. Practically the same thing happened when the whole board pronounced Juwan Howard as "inefficient", "washed up" & "too old" to contribute before last season. Then when he stepped up by midseason, you guys flipped flopped like George Bush.</div> Are you forgetting the part where he played like crap the first month and a half, and he slumped miserably the last couple months of the season/playoffs? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">NOTE:I'd also like to mention how some of the SAME guys criticizing Rock4life now, said the same things when I was bashing FORMER coach JVG early in the season. Seems some ppl don't learn Here are my positions: -I'm nuetral on the trade which gave us two prospects at PF/C in return for cash and a player who wasn't going to play for us -Scola's not a scrub, but not good enuff to start for the Rockets and he does absolutely NOTHIN for us at PF -We still need to make a move for a PF -Kenyon Martin will have a great season next year, justifying the $45 million remaining on his contract</div> Thanks for clearing that up. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Actually not. I stick by my assertion that Howard was the better player outta the 2. Also I stated he had the better overrall season, he contributed more. </div> You're stating this like its fact. It's merely opinion. There was maybe a 2 1/2 month period where Juwan was more effective. The rest of the time, Chuck was more effective. On the whole, if you look at the regular season and the playoffs, I think Chuck gave us more. That's my opinion. You have another opinion. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I did underestimate Hayes, sayin he was a scrub. But my main point was we weren't gonna go far in the playoffs with Chuck starting.</div> You never predicted the Rockets would get bounced out of the first round. In fact, if I recall, you thought we should have gotten to the second round. The issue wasn't whether we could get far with one particular player starting. It's which player gave us the best chance to get further in the playoffs. There was abundant evidence that we played better against the elite teams Chuck on the floor next to Yao and Tracy compared to Juwan next to Yao and Tracy. And considering Juwan's production against Utah, there's no reason to expect a better result if he was starting instead. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you really look at it from a realistic perspective, I was the ONLY one who supported Juwan Howard before the season. </div> We supported Juwan. The only "fan" rooting for players to fail on our team was you with Chuck Hayes. And it looks like you're going to do the same thing this year with Scola. The issue was whether Juwan or Chuck would be more effective in the starting lineup. The results speak for themselves. Chuck played better in the starting lineup when Yao and Tracy were healthy. Juwan played better when Yao was out. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I was the ONLY one who lashed out against JVG's style of play early in the season (even when we were winning).</div> Huh? JVG had plenty of haters in Houston. That doesn't make you unique at all. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I was also the ONLY one who predicted he'd be fired early in the season. </div> You were the only one predicting he'd be fired if we lost in the first round? Uh, no.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Actually not. I stick by my assertion that Howard was the better player outta the 2. Also I stated he had the better overrall season, he contributed more. I did underestimate Hayes, sayin he was a scrub. But my main point was we weren't gonna go far in the playoffs with Chuck starting. If you really look at it from a realistic perspective, I was the ONLY one who supported Juwan Howard before the season. I was the ONLY one who lashed out against JVG's style of play early in the season (even when we were winning). I was also the ONLY one who predicted he'd be fired early in the season. At the same everybody saying "Rock4life's a fool". It's the same song this time as well............. I can't wait</div> You were not the only one that lashed out against JVG. If you look at cb, a lot of the message board (I would argue over half) was against JVG. Your position is nothing new. You act as if your thinking is revolutionary. For all your talk about how only winning playoffs is more important, Juwan Howard played a critical role in us LOSING it. Also, if it wasn't for Hayes, we probably would have lost game 2 for sure. He also made quite a significant contribution to us winning in game 1. You keep talking about how Howard is much better than Hayes. Yet, when it counts, he failed to show up. If Howard had started, we probably would have exited the playoffs much earlier. You said he would be the key to us winning the first round...Who's backpedaling now? Instead of saying how poorly he played, you focused on Chuck Hayes shouldn't have even been a starter.
Rock4life, I think its not really your opinions that people don't like, its how you say it. You always talk as if your the guru of Rockets basketball, I'm the king, you guys are stupid if you don't agree with me. This forum is to share our passion for Houston Rockets basketball, so please consider other people in this board, not just your own silly opinions that we would have tolerated have you not been so arrogant. I'm not even a regular poster, just more a reader and already you piss me off.
Look, you can really believe that your opinions are 100% correct, but if you want any of us to respect them, answer me this one question: Have you actually seen Luis Scola play in Europe? If you have, explain why you don't think he'll translate well to the NBA (despite the fact that a precedent has already been set by players like Nocioni, Garbajosa, Parker, etc.). If you haven't, please shut up and acknowledge that your opinion holds no weight.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You were not the only one that lashed out against JVG. If you look at cb, a lot of the message board (I would argue over half) was against JVG. Your position is nothing new. You act as if your thinking is revolutionary. For all your talk about how only winning playoffs is more important, Juwan Howard played a critical role in us LOSING it. Also, if it wasn't for Hayes, we probably would have lost game 2 for sure. He also made quite a significant contribution to us winning in game 1. You keep talking about how Howard is much better than Hayes. Yet, when it counts, he failed to show up. If Howard had started, we probably would have exited the playoffs much earlier. You said he would be the key to us winning the first round...Who's backpedaling now? Instead of saying how poorly he played, you focused on Chuck Hayes shouldn't have even been a starter.</div> How quickly we forget. Juwan's crucial shot and late game offensive rebounds kept that series alive. Had you watched the whole game you'd know that. But anyway, there was never a question about who's better between Hayes & Howard. Juwan's the overrall better player, theres no argument. He contributed more last season and was overrall more productive. Do you still stick by YOUR words that Juwan is "washed up"? You arrogantley said that before last season, yet make absolutley no mention of that. You also supported JVG staying, which is why I lost respect for ur posts <div class="quote_poster">Eduardo Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Rock4life, I think its not really your opinions that people don't like, its how you say it. You always talk as if your the guru of Rockets basketball, I'm the king, you guys are stupid if you don't agree with me. This forum is to share our passion for Houston Rockets basketball, so please consider other people in this board, not just your own silly opinions that we would have tolerated have you not been so arrogant. I'm not even a regular poster, just more a reader and already you piss me off.</div> In reality, I could carless if you don't like my opinions dude lol. <div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Look, you can really believe that your opinions are 100% correct, but if you want any of us to respect them, answer me this one question: Have you actually seen Luis Scola play in Europe? If you have, tell me why you don't think he'll translate well to the NBA (despite the fact that a precedent has already been set by players like Nocioni, Garbajosa, Parker, etc.). If you haven't, please shut up and acknowledge that your opinion holds no weight.</div> First off, I'm not worried about anyone "respecting" my opinions. I've been more right than wrong about things I've said, so if you choose to disagree then make sure you stick to ur position. Secondly, I'd appreciate if you'd actually re-read my posts. I didn't say Scola would be a bust. I said that given he's a rookie, and foreign player, he shouldn't be a starter. Yao was the 1st pick in the draft, and didn't even start his first game. So that tells you you can't overreact to a player who's never played an NBA game. We need a veteran to start at the PF position, and if you think Scola's good enuff to start then I'll definatley challenge anybody on that. Period
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Are you forgetting the part where he played like crap the first month and a half, and he slumped miserably the last couple months of the season/playoffs?</div> First month of the season? Oh you mean when JVG declared he wasn't gonna get much minutes, and buried him at the end of the bench. It seemed everybody on here was letting me have it during that time period, but disappeared when Howard's play dramatically picked up. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">There was maybe a 2 1/2 month period where Juwan was more effective. The rest of the time, Chuck was more effective. On the whole, if you look at the regular season and the playoffs, I think Chuck gave us more. That's my opinion. You have another opinion.</div> It's ur opinion.....But going by their season stats, Howard's numbers were better. He averaged 4 more pts, and only one less rebound. He also hit his free throws. I'm suprised by ur bias opinion on Hayes, he's ur favorite Rocket of all time. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You never predicted the Rockets would get bounced out of the first round. In fact, if I recall, you thought we should have gotten to the second round.</div> With Bonzi in the rotation.........But that was a JVG decision. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The issue wasn't whether we could get far with one particular player starting. It's which player gave us the best chance to get further in the playoffs. There was abundant evidence that we played better against the elite teams Chuck on the floor next to Yao and Tracy compared to Juwan next to Yao and Tracy. And considering Juwan's production against Utah, there's no reason to expect a better result if he was starting instead.</div> Both didn't play up to expectations. But considering Juwan had some really CLUTCH plays at the end of game 6 and I believe 4, I'd have to give the nod to Juwan. Plus given Hayes' job is to ONLY rebound, how is it we couldn't get one at the end of game 7? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You were the only one predicting he'd be fired if we lost in the first round? Uh, no.</div> I sure was. If not, name ONE person who predicted JVG would be fired in justbball.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How quickly we forget. Juwan's crucial shot and late game offensive rebounds kept that series alive. Had you watched the whole game you'd know that. But anyway, there was never a question about who's better between Hayes & Howard. Juwan's the overrall better player, theres no argument. He contributed more last season and was overrall more productive. Do you still stick by YOUR words that Juwan is "washed up"? You arrogantley said that before last season, yet make absolutley no mention of that. You also supported JVG staying, which is why I lost respect for ur posts </div> Are you saying Juwan had a bigger impact in the playoffs than Hayes? I also forgot to mention the game winning charge that he took in game 5. Tell me where did I say that I supported JVG staying. Find the exact quotation. I did support him in the season last year, and I acknowledge the accomplishments he has made considering the injuries, but I did not state that I wanted him to stay. Your arguments are funny. Hayes clearly outplayed Howard in the playoffs, yet you keep pointing to the regular season. Then whenever someone mentions JVG, you point to the playoffs. You have a funny double standard here. Your argument about JVG revolves soley around the fact that JVG is a poor playoff coach, yet you argument doesnt apply to Juwan? Funny how you twist stuff to fit your arguments. You only apply certain standards as long as it fits your views. Tell me this clearly. Who played better in the playoffs. Hayes or Howard? Who played a more crucial role in us winning the games we won? Also, tell me where in my posts that I stated I wanted JVG to stay. I supported him last year, but after the game 7 loss, I looked forward to a new coach. Don't tell me that BS that you predicted us to lose the first series. You predicted us to beat Utah, and even bashed Durvasa for saying that he thought Utah still had a good chance to beat us. You also predicted that Juwan would be a huge factor in us winning. So much for you being right a lot...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">First off, I'm not worried about anyone "respecting" my opinions. I've been more right than wrong about things I've said, so if you choose to disagree then make sure you stick to ur position. Secondly, I'd appreciate if you'd actually re-read my posts. I didn't say Scola would be a bust. I said that given he's a rookie, and foreign player, he shouldn't be a starter. Yao was the 1st pick in the draft, and didn't even start his first game. So that tells you you can't overreact to a player who's never played an NBA game. We need a veteran to start at the PF position, and if you think Scola's good enuff to start then I'll definatley challenge anybody on that. Period</div> Regardless if you care if people respect your opinion or not, you do believe that it holds weight. And that's what I'm challenging. I have read all of your posts and you've referred to Scola as a rookie, a project, and a player that can't possibly contribute right away. I don't agree with any of those assertions and I want to know what lead you to them. Your reference to Yao makes no sense, because people in this thread have continually referred to players that are a much better comparison to Scola (eg: Nocioni, Garbajosa, Oberto, Parker) who have contributed immediately. You've ignored them again and again. And this all leads me to believe that you haven't seen much of Scola. I'll repeat the question again in bigger letters to make sure you don't ignore it (like you did in your last post): <font size=""3"">Have you seen Luis Scola play in Europe?</font> For the record, I'm not trying to suggest that its a guarantee that Luis Scola will be a star (just as you're not saying he's definitely going to be a bust). But I am questioning how you can have an opinion on something that you know absolutely nothing about. If you haven't seen him play (like I suspect), it won't matter what happens. Even if Scola turns out to be a bust, your prediction won't mean sh*t, since it was just a lucky guess.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">This is sooooooooo funny to me. Practically the same thing happened when the whole board pronounced Juwan Howard as "inefficient", "washed up" & "too old" to contribute before last season. Then when he stepped up by midseason, you guys flipped flopped like George Bush. My only concern is if ya'll are wrong about Scola, are you gonna whine about Rock4life bringing it back up by midseason (like you did Juwan Howard).</div>I love how you say by midseason, meaning he didn't do jack the first half of the season, pretty much justifying people saying that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">NOTE:I'd also like to mention how some of the SAME guys criticizing Rock4life now, said the same things when I was bashing FORMER coach JVG early in the season. Seems some ppl don't learn</div>And what was so bad about JVG? Because he didn't play your man-crush Bonzi Wells? Because he didn't advance in the playoffs? Because he led the team to what, 50 wins despite Yao missing over a fourth of the season and TMac missing a huge chunk of time as well. Yea, I can totally see why should criticize him. The only reason you did so is for one reason and one reason only: he didn't play your precious Bonzi. Whooptee-doo. Here are my positions: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> -I'm nuetral on the trade</div>If you were neutral you wouldn't make such a huge deal about doing it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">-Scola's not a scrub, but not good enuff to start for the Rockets</div>And what makes you think this? Have you ever seen him play. I didn't think so. So, until he actually plays, I honestly don't think there's any proof of this. If anything, all the proof is that he is good enough. He has been productive overseas and is considered one of the top players in the world that's not in the NBA. Yet, he's not good enough to start because he's foreign, you've never heard of him and you've never seen him play. Good reasons, cause that's about all you have. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">-We still need to make a move for a PF</div>I guess you know your team better than I do, but I have a feeling Scola should be able to fill this void, despite what you think <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">-Kenyon Martin will have a great season next year</div>Define great season. And just to put this out there, but I doubt that he'll even be starting. He's had two microfracture surgeries in about a year. That's going to take a lot away from his biggest asset: athleticism. He relied a lot on his athletic ability to be effective, and when you have two microfracture surgeries, you're going to lose some of that. Why don't you throw out the fact that Nene was pretty good last year as well, averaging 12/7 on the season and 15/8 in the playoffs. He's going to be the starter on opening day and should remain that way all season. Oh, and last thing, who is KMarts PG now? Chucky Atkins? That's no JKidd and not even an Andre Miller. Good point guards are partly why KMart was effective. Miller and Kidd were able to get him a lot of easy looks and a whole bunch of dunks. Neither of those guys are around now. If he even averages 10/6 this year, I'll be shocked.
Kenyon Martin's best season: 16.7ppg 9.5 rpg 1.3 bpg '03-04 with the Nets in 65 games career average: 14.8 ppg 7.2 rpg 1.2 bpg Is that worth 60 million over the next 4 years? In probably 50-60 games played in each of those seasons (if he's lucky). Meanwhile if Scola gets 10 ppg 6 rpg 0.5 bpg (conservative estimate), I'd much rather take that for 9 million over the next 3. Less than what KMart will make next season alone.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How quickly we forget. Juwan's crucial shot and late game offensive rebounds kept that series alive. Had you watched the whole game you'd know that. But anyway, there was never a question about who's better between Hayes & Howard. Juwan's the overrall better player, theres no argument. He contributed more last season and was overrall more productive. Do you still stick by YOUR words that Juwan is "washed up"? You arrogantley said that before last season, yet make absolutley no mention of that. You also supported JVG staying, which is why I lost respect for ur posts</div>You state these things like their fact. It's purely opinion, you just think yours are always right. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In reality, I could carless if you don't like my opinions dude lol</div>And this is why no one cares about what you think. If you can't give respect, how the hell do you expect to get it? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First off, I'm not worried about anyone "respecting" my opinions. I've been more right than wrong about things I've said, so if you choose to disagree then make sure you stick to ur position. Secondly, I'd appreciate if you'd actually re-read my posts. I didn't say Scola would be a bust. I said that given he's a rookie, and foreign player, he shouldn't be a starter. Yao was the 1st pick in the draft, and didn't even start his first game. So that tells you you can't overreact to a player who's never played an NBA game. We need a veteran to start at the PF position, and if you think Scola's good enuff to start then I'll definatley challenge anybody on that. Period</div>Really? Aside from Vince Young (which even then, you weren't necessarily right on, but that's a different argument), what else have you been right on? And while you didn't say Scola would be a bust, you certainly seem to be implying it. And you know, maybe your opinion would carry a little weight if you had some way to back it up. As it is, you don't. You've never seen him play. You just think he won't contribute for two reasons. Firstly, he's a rookie. And really, he's only a "rookie" in the sense that it'll be his first year in the NBA. In every other right of the word, he's not. He's been playing overseas for a long time now and is one of the best players over there. He's been to the Olympics and was the best player for Argentina not named Andres Nocioni. He's been playing pro ball overseas for a decade now. He was the Spanish League MVP in 2005 and again in 2007. He's already accomplished everything you can accomplish overseas. Yet you don't think he'll be able to produce because he's a rookie. And then your other reason for him not producing is because he's foreign. Umm...why the hell does that matter? A lot of foreign players have come to the league and been immediate impact players. Andres Nocioni, Yao, Anthony Parker, Jorge Garbajosa. Oh, and one that defies your logic completely, Andrea Bargnani. Not only is he foreign, he was a rookie last year, and had a GREAT rookie season. And the thing here is Scola is A LOT more experienced than Bargnani was when he came in to the league. Your logic is of complete idiocy. Who cares if he's a rookie? Plenty have come into the league and had immediate success. And who cares that he's foreign. I just listed five players that have had pretty much immediate success in the NBA. You just don't like him cause you don't know anything about him, yet you refuse to admit you know absolutely nothing about him. I don't see why you continue to argue something you can't win.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">First month of the season? Oh you mean when JVG declared he wasn't gonna get much minutes, and buried him at the end of the bench. It seemed everybody on here was letting me have it during that time period, but disappeared when Howard's play dramatically picked up. </div> Actually, you were the one who disappeared in the beginning of the season, when Juwan was struggling. Most of us were here the whole time, and we gave Juwan due praise in the games he played well. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's ur opinion.....But going by their season stats, Howard's numbers were better. He averaged 4 more pts, and only one less rebound. He also hit his free throws. I'm suprised by ur bias opinion on Hayes, he's ur favorite Rocket of all time. </div> "going by the season stats" ... hmmm Chuck's "stats" were better according to : NBA.com's EFF rating, Hollinger's PER, Basketball-Reference.com's Win Shares, Dean Oliver's Player Wins/Player Losses, 82games.com's Roland Ratings, David Berri's Wins Produced, ... I can go on. And I guarantee that Morey's statistical methods would rate Chuck higher than Juwan as well (as they did in the 05/06 season when Morey rated Chuck ahead of Juwan and Stromile). In other words, people who study and write about basketball stats for a living would almost universally put Chuck Hayes's season stats ahead of Juwan's. You're out of your element here; I suggest you talk about something other than stats. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">With Bonzi in the rotation.........But that was a JVG decision. </div> So if Bonzi was in the rotation then we could have advanced in the playoffs with Chuck starting. Got it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Both didn't play up to expectations. But considering Juwan had some really CLUTCH plays at the end of game 6 and I believe 4, I'd have to give the nod to Juwan. </div> We lost game 6. And you must be referring to game 5 (easily Juwan's best game of the series), because Juwan went 2-7 in a loss in game 4. The most clutch play in the entire series for the Rockets could very well have been Chuck's drawn charge in game 5. That forced a key turnover in the final seconds of the game to preserve our lead when it looked like Fisher had a clear path to the basket. Chuck was also widely praised in the media (both in Houston and Utah) for his play in game 2, when he was huge in keeping us in the game in the first half. Without his 7 offensive rebounds, we likely would have lost that game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Plus given Hayes' job is to ONLY rebound, how is it we couldn't get one at the end of game 7?</div> If you think his only job was to rebound, then that only shows how ignorant you were about our team. The PF played a crucial team defensive role on our team. As far as rebounding, let's break that down. Chuck entered the game in the 4th quarter at 6:54 left. His defensive assignment was Okur, who was primarily stationed on the perimeter. Because of that assignment, he simply wasn't going to get a lot of defensive boards. That's how the Jazz play. They spread you out on defense to weaken your rebounding position, and it's why they were the best offensive rebounding team in the league. Now, in those last 6:54, the Jazz got 3 offensive rebounds. Two by Carlos Boozer (guarded by Yao Ming), and one by Matt Harpring (guarded by Tracy McGrady or Shane Battier). Can Chuck be blamed primarily for this? Of course not. What about offensive rebounds? In the last 6:54, the Jazz actually only came up with 3 defensive rebounds (Rockets had 2 offensive rebounds). Yes, an extra offensive rebound or two from Chuck could have been huge, but there's no shame in coming empty on 3 offensive rebounding opportunities. To put it in perspective, consider the best offensive rebounder last year -- Reggie Evans. If you subtract away his teammates offensive boards while he was on the court, he grabbed 17.4% of the remaining available boards on the offensive end (the rest defensive rebounded by the opponent). That means that, on average, if his teammate didn't get the offensive board, the opponent would have gotten it 83% of the time. So what are the chances that the opponent would grab 3 defensive boards before Reggie Evans grabbed 1? .83 * .83 * .83 = 56% So you want to blame Chuck for not getting an offensive rebound in the 4th quarter when Utah grabbed 3 defensive rebounds. Guess what? Even for one of the best offensive rebounders in the game -- Reggie Evans -- that's simply a statistical likelihood. That's the pitfall of trying to make basketball arguments based on small samples. You correctly pointed out the problem with small samples at the beginning of last season while defending Juwan Howard, but you consistently have ignored that principle in your criticisms of Chuck Hayes. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I sure was. If not, name ONE person who predicted JVG would be fired in justbball.</div> Name one person who predicted he wouldn't be fired here. Just because people didn't care to voice a prediction one way or the other on this particular board, that doesn't mean it wasn't well known that JVG could very well be fired if he failed to get past the first round. Any semi-knowledgeable Rockets fan could have told you that. All that said, remember JVG probably would not have been fired if he committed right away to coming back to the team. So even your prediction was only partially right.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">...Plus given Hayes' job is to ONLY rebound, how is it we couldn't get one at the end of game 7?...</div> Why would you asked the same question over and over? I answered this about 2.5 months ago (even attached video). This is the end of game 7 you are talking about. I can see that you ignore this video and ask the same question again next season. Anyway, here's the link to the post where I answered you. http://justbball.com/forums/showpost.php?p...27&postcount=98
Wow Rock4life doesn't care about our opinions? Why would he try to stress his own so much unless he cared enough to change ours? Noone here is saying Luis Scola is an immediate star, but given our resources, it's very difficult for us to trade or sign a vet PF who can flourish with our team. Rock4life mentioned gambles earlier on saying that we need to take some to win (in referring to Kenyon Martin). Well Scola is our gamble that can put us past the 1st round of the playoffs. We don't know what we're getting with him in the NBA - and for that I do understand where you're coming from Rock4life... but I believe that Scola as our starter COULD be a winning formula for us. We just need to take a gamble. If not, we have Hayes to take the starting position (which he has proved he can do).. at least until we find a way to get a new PF. My underlying point here is that Scola is a gamble, but based on what I've seen and heard, the odds are in our favour.
Looking at what we got for Scola and Butler, I would have to say the deal went in our favor. Rock4life, surely you will agree that Vspan is not as experienced as Scola because he basically has played no NBA ball sitting on the bench. Scola has more years over seas and is more hyped because of all his accomplishments. On top of that, we got both of them for absolutely nothing. You can make the arguement that Vspan is better like you might be thinking on doing right now (even though he isn't) , BUT let me remind you that Vspan is also basically a foriegn rookie because lack of playing time and might not contribute with playing time. The deal is a good trade for us because we got what we wanted. The question of if Scola can be our starting PF is a hard one because none of us have seen him play in the NBA. That also doesn't mean you can just rule him out as a contributing player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> How quickly we forget. Juwan's crucial shot and late game offensive rebounds kept that series alive. Had you watched the whole game you'd know that. But anyway, there was never a question about who's better between Hayes & Howard. Juwan's the overrall better player, theres no argument. He contributed more last season and was overrall more productive. Do you still stick by YOUR words that Juwan is "washed up"? You arrogantley said that before last season, yet make absolutley no mention of that. You also supported JVG staying, which is why I lost respect for ur posts </div> Durvasa can i please get a stat that shows that Juwan Howard was more productive over last season than Chuck Hayes. When i see the stats then i'll believe it. Also, Rock4life you might be saying "stat sheet doesn't show everything you do on the court. I mean look at Shane Battier." Chuck Hayes does more on the court than what shows on the stat sheet. Period. no arguement. And one last question for Rock4life. Can you provide to me a list of players that is REALISTICLY ATTAINABLE at the PF position that would satisfy you. NOTE: CHRIS WEBBER is not an option because he has expressed that he will only got to either Dallas or Detroit. Kenyon Martin is not an option...no explanation needed. please provide me this list. And I find this extremely funny. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> It's ur opinion.....But going by their season stats, Howard's numbers were better. He averaged 4 more pts, and only one less rebound. He also hit his free throws. I'm suprised by ur bias opinion on Hayes, he's ur favorite Rocket of all time. </div> You can not analyze like that AT ALL. Thats ridiculous. By your logic, If we look at Antwan Jamison and Tim Duncan. Duncan had 20 ppg and 10.6 rebounds and Jamison had 19.8 ppg and 8 rebounds. You can make the arguement that Jamison's numbers in the playoffs are better than Duncans, but that doesn't make him more productive. In the regular season. Jamison averaged more steals, better FT%, and almost the same FG%. With that logic, you have to say Duncan is only slightly more productive than Jamison because he only averages 2 more rebounds and 0.2 more points. You can't do that because it not logical or anything.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, you were the one who disappeared in the beginning of the season, when Juwan was struggling. Most of us were here the whole time, and we gave Juwan due praise in the games he played well. </div> Not true...I defended Juwan during this stretch. You obviously haven't did ur research <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Chuck's "stats" were better according to : NBA.com's EFF rating, Hollinger's PER, Basketball-Reference.com's Win Shares, Dean Oliver's Player Wins/Player Losses, 82games.com's Roland Ratings, David Berri's Wins Produced, ... I can go on. And I guarantee that Morey's statistical methods would rate Chuck higher than Juwan as well (as they did in the 05/06 season when Morey rated Chuck ahead of Juwan and Stromile). </div> No..I haven't looked at ur "alternative" stats yet. It's not rocket science, Juwan averaged about 10pts & 6rebs for us comin off the bench. If you take Udonis Haslem, somebody who you mentioned would be a great fit for us, he averaged 10pts & 8rebs. That's almost identical to Juwan's numbers last year (Howard also played 7 less minutes). I think the majority of this board underestimates Howard's significance for our team last year. Yet, I'm the only one who's defending him again. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">In other words, people who study and write about basketball stats for a living would almost universally put Chuck Hayes's season stats ahead of Juwan's. You're out of your element here; I suggest you talk about something other than stats.</div> I think ur grossly inacurate on this. Since you don't really watch the games as closley, ur able to make sad statements like this one. Put it like this, Hayes's job was to rebound. That's it. He's strictly as hustle player, which explains why he'll never average more than 30mins for a entire season. His role was VERY limited. Juwan had a bigger role on this team, and fully took advantage of it. Without Juwan, we might've not even made the playoffs (considering he stepped his game up when Yao went down). <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The most clutch play in the entire series for the Rockets could very well have been Chuck's drawn charge in game 5. That forced a key turnover in the final seconds of the game to preserve our lead when it looked like Fisher had a clear path to the basket. Chuck was also widely praised in the media (both in Houston and Utah) for his play in game 2, when he was huge in keeping us in the game in the first half. Without his 7 offensive rebounds, we likely would have lost that game.</div> True...I agree. Kudos to Chuck. But you can also argue that his lack of offense allowed Kirilenko to smother Yao but by "drifting" off Chuck. Kirilenko harrassed Yao that whole series. That was a major factor in why we lost.
Rock4life, I'm pretty much at the "agree to disagree" stage with you right now, regarding opinions. I'll dispute anything you say that's blatantly false or contradictory; for everything else knock yourself out. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Not true...I defended Juwan during this stretch. You obviously haven't did ur research</div> Ok. After a little research, I found that between 11/18 and 12/04, you didn't refer to Juwan in a single post in the Rockets forum. A lengthy absence, relative to the rest of the season, but I guess you had better things to do. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No..I haven't looked at ur "alternative" stats yet. It's not rocket science, Juwan averaged about 10pts & 6rebs for us comin off the bench. If you take Udonis Haslem, somebody who you mentioned would be a great fit for us, he averaged 10pts & 8rebs. That's almost identical to Juwan's numbers last year (Howard also played 7 less minutes).</div> You are wrong if you think you can accurately sum up a players contributions by just looking at a couple boxscore categories. That said, NBA.com's EFF rating is actually pretty simplistic and its been around for ages. It simply adds up all the traditional stats you'd find in a box score. That's not "alternative", except to someone who's a complete novice when it comes to basketball statistics. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NBA.com:</div><div class="quote_post"> How do many NBA coaches quickly evaluate a player's game performance? They check his efficiency. NBA.com evaluates all players based on the efficiency formula: ((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)).</div> http://www.nba.com/statistics/efficiency.html <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think ur grossly inacurate on this. Since you don't really watch the games as closley, ur able to make sad statements like this one. Put it like this, Hayes's job was to rebound. That's it.</div> Defense isn't a responsibility any more? I didn't realize that defense stopped being important for our team last year. I guess I really wasn't watching the games! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's strictly as hustle player, which explains why he'll never average more than 30mins for a entire season. His role was VERY limited. Juwan had a bigger role on this team, and fully took advantage of it. Without Juwan, we might've not even made the playoffs (considering he stepped his game up when Yao went down). </div> I agree that Juwan had a bigger role when Yao went down. Everything else is opinion or speculation. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">True...I agree. Kudos to Chuck. But you can also argue that his lack of offense allowed Kirilenko to smother Yao but by "drifting" off Chuck. Kirilenko harrassed Yao that whole series. That was a major factor in why we lost.</div> Okur was guarding Yao. Boozer was guarding Chuck. Kirilenko was assigned to Battier, sometimes Tracy. Kirilenko rarely, if ever, matched up with Chuck in the series because that would have required Boozer to defend our perimeters players. So I'm not understanding how Kirilenko drifting off Chuck defensively could have been a major factor.
