Hello everyone, welcome to the New Jersey Nets debate. We'll continue the first round, with the following members, "Master Shake", "$wish", and "Umair". This debate will begin once the first reply is submitted and will last approximately 48 hours. Here is a couple of rules to remember: 1. No one other than the people participating in this debate, can post in this thread. 2. Form your own opinion about the topic your discussing, don't steal material. 3. Keep it clean and intelligent. And the question is: How has Vince Carter changed since his years in Toronto? Why did that change occur? Should he make the Hall-of-Fame if his career ended today? <font size=""1"">-Props to Voodoo Child.</font>
Vince has changed from his last year in Toronto to his now years in NJ. When Vince Carter was drafted he was ready to be a leader and win. When he was traded for Antawn Jamison Raptor fans were ready to see what he could do. He didn't fall in love with the Jumper, and was full of plays no one could do. Then after that heart breaking lose to the 76ers, things went down hill. He started to get injured and lost his touch over time. Soon it become so bad, that he was booed on occasion. Then with the drafting of Chris Bosh, things looked better, but even Carter didn't think so. He decided that he didn't want to play in Toronto anymore, and was traded for peanuts. NJ got the better end of that deal for sure. When he came to the Nets he had an amazing PG, and a steady team around him. A great coach and a team making the playoffs no problem. In his next season with the Nets he didn't miss a game and was not the first option but a 2nd or 3rd with Richard Jefferson, which was fine with him. He was scoring again and was happy. He was injured way less and was winning more. However, he still lost some of his explosiveness to his early years, but is still a major star in the NBA. This changed occurred mainly because of the on going problems with the Raptor organization. With problems with Sam Mitchell and teammates, things were getting out of hand. There came a time when the Raptors were losing and he told Bosh "Don't worry it will soon be over" Or the allegations of when he told a player on the Sonics the play the Raptors where going to run. It was to much. When he got to NJ, virtually no problems. He was surrounded by great teammates and a coach he had respect for. His numbers went up also. Career Season Averages Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PPG 98-99 TOR 50 49 35.2 0.450 0.288 0.761 1.9 3.8 5.7 3.0 1.1 1.5 2.20 18.3 99-00 TOR 82 82 38.1 0.465 0.403 0.791 1.8 4.0 5.8 3.9 1.3 1.1 2.17 25.7 00-01 TOR 75 75 39.7 0.460 0.408 0.765 2.3 3.2 5.5 3.9 1.5 1.1 2.23 27.6 01-02 TOR 60 60 39.8 0.428 0.387 0.798 2.3 2.9 5.2 4.0 1.6 0.7 2.57 24.7 02-03 TOR 43 42 34.2 0.467 0.344 0.806 1.4 3.0 4.4 3.3 1.1 0.9 1.72 20.6 03-04 TOR 73 73 38.2 0.417 0.383 0.806 1.3 3.5 4.8 4.8 1.2 0.9 3.05 22.5 04-05 TOR 20 20 30.4 0.411 0.322 0.694 1.4 1.9 3.3 3.1 1.2 0.8 1.10 15.9 04-05 NJN 57 56 38.9 0.462 0.425 0.817 1.4 4.5 5.9 4.7 1.5 0.6 2.56 27.5 05-06 NJN 79 79 36.8 0.430 0.341 0.799 1.7 4.1 5.8 4.3 1.2 0.7 2.70 24.2 06-07 NJN 82 38.1 0.454 0.357 0.802 1.4 4.6 6.0 4.8 1.0 0.4 2.65 25.2 From the time he was traded from Toronto he averaged 15.9PPG to 27.5PPG, a 12 point increase. This showed a change from his teammates, and coach. His games per season also went up from 57 to 75 to a full season last year. This was a great change from the 20 before he was traded and injury prone. To me, speaking as a Basketball fan overall, not a Raptor fan, he should make the Hall of Fame. He was/is an exciting player, who consistently put up great numbers, in the regular season and playoffs. To put it into perspective. Guys like Jason Kidd, Kevin Garnett and Allen Iverson, Grant Hill might never win championships, but they should be in the Hall of Fame for what they have done and what they will continue to do. I believe Vince Carter will win a championship with the Nets because he has changed his attitude, playing style and plays every game. That to me, is a player with dedication, caring and knowledge of the game and should be in the HOF if his career ended today.
<div class="quote_poster">Master Shake Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">To me, speaking as a Basketball fan overall, not a Raptor fan, he should make the Hall of Fame. He was/is an exciting player, who consistently put up great numbers, in the regular season and playoffs. To put it into perspective. Guys like Jason Kidd, Kevin Garnett and Allen Iverson, Grant Hill might never win championships, but they should be in the Hall of Fame for what they have done and what they will continue to do. I believe Vince Carter will win a championship with the Nets because he has changed his attitude, playing style and plays every game. That to me, is a player with dedication, caring and knowledge of the game and should be in the HOF if his career ended today.</div> What? Are you crazy? You really think Nets have enough firepower to go past Detroit, Cavs, and Heat? Heck even Magics are loaded this year. The East has been pretty weak in the past decade but this year it's pretty strong. Well thats not the point, the point is Vince Carter cannot lead a team to the championship. The guy was a superstar in Toronto and his game has changed signficantly. In Toronto, he was the #1 option of the team and still is in New Jersey but in New Jersey the team has more options. He is surrounded by better players here including RJ, Kristic (back from injury), and obviously one of the best Point Guards in Kidd. There is no way Vince Carter is going to win a championship. Heck, even if his career ended today I wouldn't put him in the Hall of Fame. Considering he has never reached the Finals, I would never put him in the Hall of Fame. The guy is a higlight reel. He is not a proven winner, therefore I would never put him in the Hall of Fame. Now, he did change a lot from his years in Toronto to the years in Nets. He never really had a solid team in Toronto that could win a championship or even get to the Eastern Conference Finals. The team usually depended on him to do most of the work. There was one year where they got close to the Finals but got beat by the Sixers. Now in 2004-2005, when he got traded to the Nets, he had more options on the team than the years before. He had more go to players. He didn't have that much pressure on him. His game has dropped considering the pressure on him. Again, I would never put him in the Hall of Fame. He hasn't done anything special do deserve that position. Heck, if guys like Iverson, Kidd, and Garnett deserve being in the Hall of Fame, why not put all the all-stars in the Hall of Fame for that matter. Hall of Fame should be someone who accomplished a life long goal; winning a championship. Till Vince Carters wins a championship, I'll say no to the championship. But if his career ended today, I'd say "hell no" in putting him in the Hall of Fame.
Sorry it took me awhile to respond guys, I've been sick and sleeping all day which explains why I'm up at 2:30 making my first post in this thread. Have no fear though, "$wish" is here. This is a pretty simple question that has been debated a lot here on JustBBall. It's obvious Vince Carter has changed since his days in Toronto but what surprised me with Master Shake's answer was that you think Carter has changed for the better while I think he's changed for the worse. When Vince was in Toronto, he was a global superstar. He was the type of player who appeared in commercials, was a household name, and a perennial All-Star starter because the fans loved him and his amazing dunks. He was the leader of the Raptors and at the time, a huge fan favorite because he was so exciting to watch. He was one of the most athletic players to ever step onto a basketball court and watching him do some of the things he did was just phenominal. Nowadays, Vince is older and has his fair share of injuries throughout his career. While he may throw down some nice dunks now and then, he is nowhere near the athlete he was in Toronto. He heavily relies on his jump shot far to much and he is extremely consistent (something that miffed the Nets fans in this very forum throughout the 2007 season). In fact, this past year Vince barely made the All-Star game (he was a reserve) and had less votes than his former teammate, forward Chris Bosh. Carter logged just over 16 minutes in last year's All-Star game. Only Caron Butler and Richard Hamilton played less on the Eastern Conference team. That's right, the fan favorite superstar who once dazzled amazed audiences at the All-Star game was watching from the bench. His athleticism is down, his consistency is down, his popularity is down, and some of his biggest fans from his Raptor days have now turned their back on the man who was once their idol. Doesn't sound like positive change to me. I'm not just going to use the All-Star game as my main argument though because we all know that's just a bunch of rich men running around and playing little or no defense. Let's talk about how he has performed since becoming a Net. The main knock I have on Vince is his inconsistency. He would disappear some stretches during last season and he would jack up jump shots like crazy. I even remember someone posting a fake article about Vince being afraid to touch people because he wouldn't draw contact in the paint anymore. In the Random Thought Thread the other day we were all just talking about how much we miss the old VC. He was crazy before and his game has dropped off some since being traded. He used to be a superstar but at this point in his career I consider him just a star. I don't think you can build a team around him and the Nets even tried to rebuild this year at the trade deadline because they realized that. After the deadline passed, a report was made that Carter was offered to Orlando for Hedo Turkoglu, Darko Milicic, and a pick but the Magic declined. If it hadn't been for Otis Smith stopping that trade (thank God he stopped, NOBODY in the Magic forum wanted Carter in Orlando for all the reasons I've mentioned) he wouldn't even be a Net right now. Granted, they just signed him to a huge extension but even some of the Nets fans in this forum were weary about the deal and they weren't sure if he deserved max money. To me, Vince is still an alright player but compared to the old VC, he's changed drastically for the worse. Do I think he should make the Hall of Fame? Yes but not after his first year on the ballot. He was a great scorer and one of the best dunkers ever so I think he belongs but he should have to wait a year or two before making it in since he hasn't had great success in the playoffs and has never one any great awards. He'll be in there but I think someone like Artis Gilmore (top 25 scorer, top ten in rebounds, blocked shots, games, and minutes played) who still hasn't been inducted, deserves to be in there ahead of him. Master Shake, you can say his points per game jumped 12 points after being traded but the year he averaged 15 PPG he was injured which is why he only played 20 games. You can't really make an accurate point comparing two years when a player is injured and then when a player is healthy. That's why the year before that when Vince played 73 games, his points per game was above 22. A fairer statement would be comparing those two years because he was healthy and both. I'm just trying to say that Vince didn't become this prolific scorer when he landed in New Jersey, he had always been good at getting to the basket (except for last year when he went on chucking sprees behind the three point line) and he really only averaged a couple more points per game after being traded. Also, you failed to mention what happened this past year, his points per game dropped again to 24 PPG, which is similar to what he averaged in Toronto. If you're going to base your entire argument on that he's a better scorer in New Jersey, then I want to see his numbers consistently rising and rising hiring than just a couple points. Also, you can't say that coming to New Jersey made him injury free. His attitude could change by switching teams but unless there is something special in that New Jersey water, switching cities wouldn't make him less prone to injuries. Umair, if you think that players like Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, and Jason Kidd don't belong in the Hall Of Fame, I don't even know what to say to you. Jason Kidd is one of the greatest point guards ever (going back to the last debate in this tournament ), Allen Iverson is one of the greatest scorers in the game, and Kevin Garnett is arguably one of the best power forwards of All-Time. It's not always the players fault if they don't win a championship either. Take Garnett for example. He plays with more passion than any player I know but he has a dumbass running the franchise in Kevin McHale who doesn't know how to surround him with talent. Is that his fault? No. All of those players deserve to be in the Hall, as well as Vince Carter just not as a first ballot Hall of Famer. Also, I have to ask you this question. Do you think Tracy McGrady belongs in the Hall of Fame? You're a big T-Mac fan but based on your credentials, McGrady would be even more of a HELL NO than Vince when Hall of Fame voting roles around. Tracy also has never won a championship (or a playoff series for that matter...) and must just be "highlight reel and not a proven winner" as well. And as far as Carter winning a championship, I wouldn't count it out just yet. While it's not very likely, I consider New Jersey a contender with Kidd, Carter, Jefferson, Krstic, and Magloire. That's a good lineup in the East and with Shaq and all of the Pistons' starters getting older, LeBron getting lonely without any help, and the Magic still a few years away from contending, I don't think it's completely out of the question.
To Umair <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What? Are you crazy? You really think Nets have enough firepower to go past Detroit, Cavs, and Heat? Heck even Magics are loaded this year. The East has been pretty weak in the past decade but this year it's pretty strong. Well thats not the point, the point is Vince Carter cannot lead a team to the championship. </div> I never said he would lead his team. I said he was dedicated and ready to play. He scores 20 points as easy as anyone in the game. He has just started to fall in love with his jumper. Enough fire power? If the Cavs got to the finals, the Nets could to. LeBron is a different story, but the Nets can compete with anyone in the East. Vince Carter doesn't need to lead a team, when you have Jason Kidd. Vince isn't just going to come in and take over when a vet and the team Capitan, Jason Kidd, is their. He is however, most likely a voice in the locker room, and you cannot say he doesn't help the Nets, he is a very useful piece who they got for almost peanuts. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The guy was a superstar in Toronto and his game has changed significantly. In Toronto, he was the #1 option of the team and still is in New Jersey but in New Jersey the team has more options. He is surrounded by better players here including RJ, Kristic (back from injury), and obviously one of the best Point Guards in Kidd. There is no way Vince Carter is going to win a championship. </div> I don't get what you are saying? You are praising the Nets, saying he is the number 1 option then you swing to "No he will never win a championship." The team around him is strong. You think with all these young teams that the Nets are done. They will need to get younger, but as proven in the 1st round, a young team was beat by a experienced team. Sure the Magic have Dwight & Lewis, but Lewis is not going to win them a championship. He is a piece "Around" Howard. I bet if you where to put Howard on the Nets, they would go to the finals, because they need that one good centre, which they might find in Jamaal, but you never know. In my mind, Carter is the second option to Kidd. Even though Kidd distributes, he is still first. Carter and Jefferson split those option duties per say, but still both get involved. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Heck, even if his career ended today I wouldn't put him in the Hall of Fame. Considering he has never reached the Finals, I would never put him in the Hall of Fame. The guy is a highlight reel. He is not a proven winner, therefore I would never put him in the Hall of Fame.</div> Um, should I name some guys who have never been to the finals or won a championship, and you still think they shouldn't be in the HOF? -Kevin Garnett -Grant Hill -Charles Barkley Those are a couple of big ones. I think if KG's career ended today, he should be in the HOF because he is one of the greatest PF of all time. What is the problem with being a highlight reel. You bust his balls because he is spectacular. Why do you think he was drafted? Because he can shut down the other teams best player? NO! He has amazing athleticism. Not since Jordan and North Carolina had they seen a player with such great potential. He could create his own shot, get the the basket with ease, he was energetic. He was so spectacular. Why take away from his game because he is an amazing athlete. Not a Proven winner? when you play on an expansion team for 6-7 years, and you lead them to the playoffs a couple of years into your rookie season, is not bad. What does not a proven winner mean? He hasn't won a championship? or awards. He is a winner, he works hard, but to be a number 1 option on a team with Jason Kidd, is hard. Kidd is so respected, why should Carter take away from his game. He is a second option who still scores over 20 per and helps the Nets win. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now, he did change a lot from his years in Toronto to the years in Nets. He never really had a solid team in Toronto that could win a championship or even get to the Eastern Conference Finals. The team usually depended on him to do most of the work.</div> On a solid team standpoint, no he never really had one. The year when he went to play the Sixers was as close as he got as a Raptor. He had some amazing games. Him against Iverson was so entertaining. Both with over 40 point games, trying to win it all. Iverson got the upper hand because his team was so much better. He was the face of the Raptors, they needed him. To do all that work shows he is a winner, because for the first 4-5 years he thrived for that. Wanting it more then anyone. He was a "WINNER" <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There was one year where they got close to the Finals but got beat by the Sixers. Now in 2004-2005, when he got traded to the Nets, he had more options on the team than the years before. He had more go to players. He didn't have that much pressure on him. His game has dropped considering the pressure on him. </div> His job on the Nets was not to distribute. They had Kidd for that. He still Had about 5 assets per game, but he was a scoring option. You say his game has dropped but with guys like Jefferson and Kristic, this year with Moore, Carter was an option but Jefferson was a better one. To compare Carter and Jefferson is like this Carter>Jefferson, but Jefferson was a solid all around player and Carter knew that. I think if Carter was the only potion he would score close to 28,29 PPG but with Jefferson and Kristic, now Jamaal and Sean Williams, there is more to get involved and Carter will still score his 20 plus, but will be most likely winning more because he doesn't need that pressure anymore. He isn't the face of the Nets, Kidd is. Pressure wise, yes he has dropped slightly, but like I said before, with more options, why does he need to score 30 when the team around him scores also, and they win a lot more. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, I would never put him in the Hall of Fame. He hasn't done anything special do deserve that position. Heck, if guys like Iverson, Kidd, and Garnett deserve being in the Hall of Fame, why not put all the all-stars in the Hall of Fame for that matter. Hall of Fame should be someone who accomplished a life long goal; winning a championship. Till Vince Carters wins a championship, I'll say no to the championship. But if his career ended today, I'd say "hell no" in putting him in the Hall of Fame.</div> Okay. lets get something clear. The Hall of Fame is for the best ever in the basketball world. For different things. Coaches, Players and guys who helped build the game. Coach K from Duke is in the HOF, he hasn't coached a game in the NBA, but he is in there for his work with team USA. Guys like Jerry Colangelo and soon to be Brian Colangelo for being guys who work hard and manage their teams are in there. Barkley, in the Finals, never one a championship, in the HOF. All-Stars are voted by fans, the players in the HOF are great players from their day. Carter, Iverson, KG are great players from their day. They will be in the HOF. Carter again today, I might put him in because he has had a solid career so far. The HOF isn't all about if you have 300 championships or 3, it is about how you played in your career and how you changed the game. To $wish <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is a pretty simple question that has been debated a lot here on JustBBall. It's obvious Vince Carter has changed since his days in Toronto but what surprised me with Master Shake's answer was that you think Carter has changed for the better while I think he's changed for the worse. </div> Now when I said he has changed better, I didn't use his whole Toronto career. If I did use that, then yes, he has changed worse, but not "worse" is a strong word. I don't mean to over use stats but almost all his stats went up when he got to NJ including more assists (5) and rebounds (4) and points which is hard in a sense. When you have a guy like Kidd who gives you the ball anywhere you think he would score 30-35. He could. He doesn't. He has Jefferson too. Who scores about 20 PPG (19.7 if you want to get in depth ). So him and Carter combined score about 50 PPG, with Kidd distributing. So while you think he went from being a global superstar to not being a superstar, I still think he wins and gets the job done without having to score 30-35, being able to pass, and rebound and knowing when he sits on the bench, that the team falls apart and loses. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When Vince was in Toronto, he was a global superstar. He was the type of player who appeared in commercials, was a household name, and a perennial All-Star starter because the fans loved him and his amazing dunks. He was the leader of the Raptors and at the time, a huge fan favorite because he was so exciting to watch. He was one of the most athletic players to ever step onto a basketball court and watching him do some of the things he did was just phenomenal. </div> This is a very true statement. It is hard to argue a fact. I remember him jumping out the gym and being spectacular, even though the Raptors were still losing. He was the leader and was always ready to play. I think now though, even though his athleticism has gone down a bit with age, he is still a phenomenal player who can do some spectacular things. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nowadays, Vince is older and has his fair share of injuries throughout his career. While he may throw down some nice dunks now and then, he is nowhere near the athlete he was in Toronto. He heavily relies on his jump shot far to much and he is extremely consistent (something that miffed the Nets fans in this very forum throughout the 2007 season). In fact, this past year Vince barely made the All-Star game (he was a reserve) and had less votes than his former teammate, forward Chris Bosh. Carter logged just over 16 minutes in last year's All-Star game. Only Caron Butler and Richard Hamilton played less on the Eastern Conference team.</div> Is Steve Francis near the athlete he was in Orlando or early Houston? No. It happens and I know you know that. He has a good jumper, it is just used more then needed. I also think you mean inconsistent, but if you do mean consistent then what is wrong with the Jumper. He still scores and gets to the basket. I'm not going to bust you for the All-Star thing because you said it isn't a good comparison, but since you brought it up. He is competing behind guys who are younger and more favored at his position like Dwyane Wade, Joe Johnson, Gilbert and Billiups. Guys like Wade are more favored because he just won a championship and is way more liked. Carter is getting older, like you said, so he isn't what the fans want to see I guess. I remember last year, off the back board dunk? He was great last year. It is just how the fans like the players, and who Jordan played. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's right, the fan favorite superstar who once dazzled amazed audiences at the All-Star game was watching from the bench. His athleticism is down, his consistency is down, his popularity is down, and some of his biggest fans from his Raptor days have now turned their back on the man who was once their idol. Doesn't sound like positive change to me.</div> Turned our back? If one day in the middle of his career, Howard started to bitch and whine and ask for trades and not play, get in to with with his coach, would you not be mad? Ask any Raptor fan, it is the way Carter left. He left like a disgruntled super star who had no care for his team and wanted out. He is now on a team, no problems, plays hard and doesn't complain. Morris Peterson left because BC didn't have room for him. When he comes to play, he will be applauded. He left like a man, he didn't complain or ask for anything. He played it out and gave it all for his team, unlike Like Carter. Carter now puts it all out there on most nights and plays hard. He wants to win and I can see him ending his career in New Jersey. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Let's talk about how he has performed since becoming a Net. The main knock I have on Vince is his inconsistency. He would disappear some stretches during last season and he would jack up jump shots like crazy. I even remember someone posting a fake article about Vince being afraid to touch people because he wouldn't draw contact in the paint anymore. In the Random Thought Thread the other day we were all just talking about how much we miss the old VC. He was crazy before and his game has dropped off some since being traded. He used to be a superstar but at this point in his career I consider him just a star. I don't think you can build a team around him and the Nets even tried to rebuild this year at the trade deadline because they realized that.</div> He wasn't brought in to be built around. He isn't LeBron or Howard or Wade or Bosh. He isn't a second year player. He is a piece they needed at the SG position that they got for nothing. I miss the old VC too. He has lost some of his game, but is still a top player. He is again, like I said a 2/3 option with RJ. If Rod Thorn brought in Carter to build around, he is not very smart. Carter is older, not to old, but right now he is getting to the age where he becomes the piece around a player. Some players drop off after traded. But when you mean drop off, I think of off ESPN Top 10's. Yes, he shoots bad shots, and disappears some game. But he still puts up good numbers and has a team around him to pick him up if he falls. Not like he had in Toronto. Francis was crazy too, but maybe now in Houston (I doubt it) Francis can be good again. Same with Carter, He is a star yes, for sure. He is no super star because he is not a number 1 option. He knows that, and he still puts up super star numbers. His inconsistency is a problem, but it happens. LeBron in the finals, ring a bell? He still scores and still helps the Nets win, that is what is important. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">After the deadline passed, a report was made that Carter was offered to Orlando for Hedo Turkoglu, Darko Milicic, and a pick but the Magic declined. If it hadn't been for Otis Smith stopping that trade (thank God he stopped, NOBODY in the Magic forum wanted Carter in Orlando for all the reasons I've mentioned) he wouldn't even be a Net right now. Granted, they just signed him to a huge extension but even some of the Nets fans in this forum were weary about the deal and they weren't sure if he deserved max money. </div> There was no need for Carter in Orlando. Otis did a smart thing, yes I agree with you. That trade would of hurt Orlando because they lost their starting PF and SF a pick for an SG. even though he put up good numbers, he wasn't a good fit for the Magic. Now with his deal, isn't almost every player over paid to some extent. LaFrentz, Moore with the Kings for his good year with Kidd, and another player...what was his name...OH YEA!!! RASHARD LEWIS! 126 Million over 7 years? C'mon I know you're with me on that. Carter was over paid to some extent, but he wasn't way overpaid. He puts up good numbers, and helps the Nets win. They can live with his inconsistent when on most nights he plays well. He isn't the Nets only option. With Jefferson and Jamaal. Sean Williams now. They are going to get better. The money he got should of been 5 mill less so maybe they could of got a back-up SF, but they are still going to be a team to compete with in the East. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">To me, Vince is still an alright player but compared to the old VC, he's changed drastically for the worse. Do I think he should make the Hall of Fame? Yes but not after his first year on the ballot. He was a great scorer and one of the best dunker's ever so I think he belongs but he should have to wait a year or two before making it in since he hasn't had great success in the playoffs and has never one any great awards. He'll be in there but I think someone like Artis Gilmore (top 25 scorer, top ten in rebounds, blocked shots, games, and minutes played) who still hasn't been inducted, deserves to be in there ahead of him.</div> He should be in the HOF. A first ballot would be a long shot, but he will get in. There are quite a few players who haven't be inducted yet who deserve it. Guys in modern time who deserve it are guys like Kidd, Hill, KG, Iverson who should go in ahead of him, but even if Carter never wins a championship. He has done great things, been a star, super star and has always put up good numbers. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Master Shake, you can say his points per game jumped 12 points after being traded but the year he averaged 15 PPG he was injured which is why he only played 20 games. You can't really make an accurate point comparing two years when a player is injured and then when a player is healthy. That's why the year before that when Vince played 73 games, his points per game was above 22. A fairer statement would be comparing those two years because he was healthy and both. I'm just trying to say that Vince didn't become this prolific scorer when he landed in New Jersey, he had always been good at getting to the basket (except for last year when he went on chucking sprees behind the three point line) and he really only averaged a couple more points per game after being traded.</div> I used that year to show that it was also the year he whined and complained. I wanted to show that other then scoring his other stats like assists and rebounds were better. He was also winning a lot more. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, you failed to mention what happened this past year, his points per game dropped again to 24 PPG, which is similar to what he averaged in Toronto. If you're going to base your entire argument on that he's a better scorer in New Jersey, then I want to see his numbers consistently rising and rising hiring than just a couple points. Also, you can't say that coming to New Jersey made him injury free. His attitude could change by switching teams but unless there is something special in that New Jersey water, switching cities wouldn't make him less prone to injuries.</div> I'm not trying to base my argument entirely on numbers. It was an example to show how in NJ his stats went up because of the team around him. Also by showing that he scored less, his team still won. I think even if it i a couple of points, it is still an upgrade because he is winning. By less injury prone he is playing almost all the games. I'm saying that funny in Toronto in his last years he is injured, but in NJ he is healthy and always ready to play. His attitude shows that he like NJ better and he wants to so much more in NJ then he did nearing his time in Toronto. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">While it's not very likely, I consider New Jersey a contender with Kidd, Carter, Jefferson, Krstic, and Magloire. That's a good lineup in the East and with Shaq and all of the Pistons' starters getting older, LeBron getting lonely without any help, and the Magic still a few years away from contending, I don't think it's completely out of the question.</div> Contenders is right. They have a good lineup, but there are more then those team. The Raptors, Bulls and possibly Celtics making upgrade could help them. The Knicks need more help, and even the Celtics aren't amazing now, but still. The Nets are a Vet East team in a younger group and could help them sooner rather then later.
To Master Shake <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Now when I said he has changed better, I didn't use his whole Toronto career. If I did use that, then yes, he has changed worse, but not "worse" is a strong word. I don't mean to over use stats but almost all his stats went up when he got to NJ including more assists (5) and rebounds (4) and points which is hard in a sense. When you have a guy like Kidd who gives you the ball anywhere you think he would score 30-35. He could. He doesn't. He has Jefferson too. Who scores about 20 PPG (19.7 if you want to get in depth ). So him and Carter combined score about 50 PPG, with Kidd distributing. So while you think he went from being a global superstar to not being a superstar, I still think he wins and gets the job done without having to score 30-35, being able to pass, and rebound and knowing when he sits on the bench, that the team falls apart and loses.</div> Once again, you're using his stats from the injury plagued 04-05 season which is misleading. If you look before that, Vince's number are very similar to his numbers in his first year in New Jersey. And just because he has other people on that team that can score isn't what has reduced him to just a star rather than global superstar. His fan base is smaller, his popularity among casual fans is down, and he is nowhere near the icon he was several years ago. Why is this? I believe it's because his game has changed and he is simply not as exciting anymore. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is a very true statement. It is hard to argue a fact. I remember him jumping out the gym and being spectacular, even though the Raptors were still losing. He was the leader and was always ready to play. I think now though, even though his athleticism has gone down a bit with age, he is still a phenomenal player who can do some spectacular things.</div> He pulls a spectacular thing out of his bag once in awhile but the old Vince used to have one or two insane highlight dunks per week. I remember watching ESPNEWS and it didn't seem like any Raptors highlight was complete until they showed Vince doing some amazing dunk. Also, I don't consider Carter a phenomenal player anymore. He's good, don't get me wrong, anyone who can average 20 points in an NBA season is still valuable to teams but I don't think he's still considered phenomenal. To me, phenomenal is the Kobe's, LeBron's, Duncan's, etc. Vince isn't a first tier superstar anymore, he's just a star more on the level of guys like Baron Davis. Good players but not phenomenal. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Is Steve Francis near the athlete he was in Orlando or early Houston? No. It happens and I know you know that. He has a good jumper, it is just used more then needed. I also think you mean inconsistent, but if you do mean consistent then what is wrong with the Jumper. He still scores and gets to the basket. I'm not going to bust you for the All-Star thing because you said it isn't a good comparison, but since you brought it up. He is competing behind guys who are younger and more favored at his position like Dwyane Wade, Joe Johnson, Gilbert and Billiups. Guys like Wade are more favored because he just won a championship and is way more liked. Carter is getting older, like you said, so he isn't what the fans want to see I guess. I remember last year, off the back board dunk? He was great last year. It is just how the fans like the players, and who Jordan played.</div> Yes, I meant inconsistent but I was out of it last night. Thanks for pointing that out. No, Steve Francis isn't the same athlete as he used to be and look where he is now, signing a small contract in Houston after both the Knicks and Blazers rid themselves of him as quick as they could. If anything you're helping me prove my point because players get worse and less talented as they get older, Francis being another example. And about the All-Star thing, Vince used to be one of the leading vote getters because he had a huge fan base and he was exciting. The fact that he was a reserve this year speaks volumes about his popularity among casual fans. Even they know he has dropped off significantly. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Turned our back? If one day in the middle of his career, Howard started to bitch and whine and ask for trades and not play, get in to with with his coach, would you not be mad? Ask any Raptor fan, it is the way Carter left. He left like a disgruntled super star who had no care for his team and wanted out. He is now on a team, no problems, plays hard and doesn't complain. Morris Peterson left because BC didn't have room for him. When he comes to play, he will be applauded. He left like a man, he didn't complain or ask for anything. He played it out and gave it all for his team, unlike Like Carter. Carter now puts it all out there on most nights and plays hard. He wants to win and I can see him ending his career in New Jersey.</div> When I said Toronto fans turned their back on Vince, I wasn't attacking you or any of the Raptors fan. I would have hated him too since he didn't try and he was a baby about the whole situation. I guess I should have added "deservingly so" to the end of that statement, my bad. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He wasn't brought in to be built around. He isn't LeBron or Howard or Wade or Bosh. He isn't a second year player. He is a piece they needed at the SG position that they got for nothing. I miss the old VC too. He has lost some of his game, but is still a top player. He is again, like I said a 2/3 option with RJ. If Rod Thorn brought in Carter to build around, he is not very smart. Carter is older, not to old, but right now he is getting to the age where he becomes the piece around a player. Some players drop off after traded. But when you mean drop off, I think of off ESPN Top 10's. Yes, he shoots bad shots, and disappears some game. But he still puts up good numbers and has a team around him to pick him up if he falls. Not like he had in Toronto. Francis was crazy too, but maybe now in Houston (I doubt it) Francis can be good again. Same with Carter, He is a star yes, for sure. He is no super star because he is not a number 1 option. He knows that, and he still puts up super star numbers. His inconsistency is a problem, but it happens. LeBron in the finals, ring a bell? He still scores and still helps the Nets win, that is what is important.</div> I think you just said everything that I've been saying this entire time. Toronto VC = Superstar. New Jersey VC = Star. Toronto VC = Franchise player, built around. New Jersey VC = Just another piece of the puzzle. His game has declined as well as his image. Also, you admitted that Carter shoots bad shots and disappears in some games. How are any of the things I just mentioned above changing for the better? The point that I've been trying to make since my first post was that Carter has declined in almost every aspect. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There was no need for Carter in Orlando. Otis did a smart thing, yes I agree with you. That trade would of hurt Orlando because they lost their starting PF and SF a pick for an SG. even though he put up good numbers, he wasn't a good fit for the Magic. Now with his deal, isn't almost every player over paid to some extent. LaFrentz, Moore with the Kings for his good year with Kidd, and another player...what was his name...OH YEA!!! RASHARD LEWIS! 126 Million over 7 years? C'mon I know you're with me on that. Carter was over paid to some extent, but he wasn't way overpaid. He puts up good numbers, and helps the Nets win. They can live with his inconsistent when on most nights he plays well. He isn't the Nets only option. With Jefferson and Jamaal. Sean Williams now. They are going to get better. The money he got should of been 5 mill less so maybe they could of got a back-up SF, but they are still going to be a team to compete with in the East.</div> Carter wasn't needed in Orlando? Our wings were our biggest holes last year and is even worse this year now that Hill has left. A scoring wing was definitely needed (cue Rashard Lewis) but Otis didn't see Vince as the answer. There were rumors that we'd pursue him but at the start of this offseason our priority list had Shard on top. And yes, Shard was overpaid but unlike Carter, he had a career year last year. His addition puts the Magic in good position to contend in a couple years. Yes, New Jersey will also compete in the East but I just don't think Carter was worth the money that he once was. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He should be in the HOF. A first ballot would be a long shot, but he will get in. There are quite a few players who haven't be inducted yet who deserve it. Guys in modern time who deserve it are guys like Kidd, Hill, KG, Iverson who should go in ahead of him, but even if Carter never wins a championship. He has done great things, been a star, super star and has always put up good numbers.</div> Agreed. I think Kidd, Garnett, and Iverson are locks for the Hall of Fame. Carter will probably get in but I just can't see him being a first ballot guy. He has done a lot but the panel may not think it's been enough.
To Swish <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Once again, you're using his stats from the injury plagued 04-05 season which is misleading. If you look before that, Vince's number are very similar to his numbers in his first year in New Jersey. And just because he has other people on that team that can score isn't what has reduced him to just a star rather than global superstar. His fan base is smaller, his popularity among casual fans is down, and he is nowhere near the icon he was several years ago. Why is this? I believe it's because his game has changed and he is simply not as exciting anymore.</div> I understand that stats from that year are bad. I think right now Carter doesn't need to be exciting. He needs to win. He isn't a rookie trying to get a deal or endorsement. He just wants to win. To me he has changed because he shows he doesn't need to be an icon. Why? When there is LeBron and Wade and Durant. Carter is becoming a vet, who wants to win and exciting or not he has changed for the better because his attitude, style of play and mind is right for his career. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He pulls a spectacular thing out of his bag once in awhile but the old Vince used to have one or two insane highlight dunks per week. I remember watching ESPNEWS and it didn't seem like any Raptors highlight was complete until they showed Vince doing some amazing dunk. Also, I don't consider Carter a phenomenal player anymore. He's good, don't get me wrong, anyone who can average 20 points in an NBA season is still valuable to teams but I don't think he's still considered phenomenal. To me, phenomenal is the Kobe's, LeBron's, Duncan's, etc. Vince isn't a first tier superstar anymore, he's just a star more on the level of guys like Baron Davis. Good players but not phenomenal.</div> I'm with you on that. I can remember his highlights too. But that to me is old news. When I describe him as phenomenal, this is what I'm thinking: <font color=""Red"">phe</font><font color=""Blue"">nom</font><font color=""Red"">e</font><font color=""Blue"">nal </font> [fi-nom-uh-nl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation 1. highly extraordinary or prodigious; exceptional: phenomenal speed. Online Dictionary Vince Carter to me is an exceptional. He is extraordinary to a point where it boggles the mind. He should be up there with the Kobe's, LeBron's and Duncan's. He is just jump shot happy. He can score with ease. I think in some senses more so then LeBron because Carter has better athletics, better air-artistry then LeBron and is all around a great player. He is by no means one of the best in the league among super-stars. But he is a star, like you have said, and I agree with you. He is still a phenomenal player where I just wish he could go out and just average 30 per so people can understand he still has it in him. I know that it is not needed, and might not prove anything, but I'm tired of people questioning him that because he can't dunk like he used to, he isn't a super-star. To me he isn't a super-star because he doesn't demand the ball, doesn't live for the pressure and is not the first option on his team. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, I meant inconsistent but I was out of it last night. Thanks for pointing that out.</div> No problem <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, Steve Francis isn't the same athlete as he used to be and look where he is now, signing a small contract in Houston after both the Knicks and Blazers rid themselves of him as quick as they could. If anything you're helping me prove my point because players get worse and less talented as they get older, Francis being another example. And about the All-Star thing, Vince used to be one of the leading vote getters because he had a huge fan base and he was exciting. The fact that he was a reserve this year speaks volumes about his popularity among casual fans. Even they know he has dropped off significantly. </div> When I used Francis, I didn't mean to make Carter sound like a old useless player. If you look at a guy like Shaq, he isn't a lot worse, but he didn't get better. From now until the end of Carter's career, I think he will stay the same. Average over 20 per, be an all-star and a star. Francis lost it completely. Carter however, still has it. I just used him to show that it happens, in some cases it is more severe then others. His popularity is down for sure, no doubt but that is because of the Wade's and LeBron's. Dwyane is exciting still and people like him. Like I said before in this post, Carter doesn't want nor does he need to be on ESPN every night. He comes out, scores his 20-25, rebounds, passes, plays hard and gets votes because he is an All-Star. Casual fans don't hear about Carter because he is older and not what young fans want to hear about. Carter is a great player. He can shoot, pass, slash, almost everything that young guys should look up to (Except for not great defense, but that was always an issue). Don't get me wrong, Dwyane Wade is great, but Carter is still holding his own. To him, he should care less about what some casual fan thinks about him. That isn't how he gets his contracts. He has proven himself and people know what he is capable of. I think the lack of his dunks which is all people think about, like you are saying, is a small part of his game. Anyone can dunk, he was just extremely gifted. He used it but know, he doesn't need to be flashy, it is just what you want to see. I want to see it to, but it just isn't part of his game, the 2-4 amazing dunks per week. This is in a sense "With Great power comes great responsibility" Carter came out flashy, athletic, amazing. Now he shots more, doesn't throw down those amazing dunks, and people say. "Naw, he isn't the old VC" Well what do you want. He puts up great numbers and plays his ass off. That is a basketball player. Not some guy who dunks it left and right. Dunking is not just Carter's game. He isn't one dimensional, he is a great player with above-average defense and can play with anyone in the league. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When I said Toronto fans turned their back on Vince, I wasn't attacking you or any of the Raptors fan. I would have hated him too since he didn't try and he was a baby about the whole situation. I guess I should have added "deservingly so" to the end of that statement, my bad. </div> I know you weren't attacking me, the way it was said was just almost to easy . I guess you know about his situation and it should need no more discussing because there is nothing else to say about what he did. It was childish and I'm glad both teams went in better directions. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think you just said everything that I've been saying this entire time. Toronto VC = Superstar. New Jersey VC = Star. Toronto VC = Franchise player, built around. New Jersey VC = Just another piece of the puzzle. His game has declined as well as his image. Also, you admitted that Carter shoots bad shots and disappears in some games. How are any of the things I just mentioned above changing for the better? The point that I've been trying to make since my first post was that Carter has declined in almost every aspect. </div> His shot taking is just something I think he knew he could do more because of the team around him. He has better pieces, so he might assume that he doesn't need to slash every time and he can take some shots. If it is something we both agree on it is his shot taking, I think he needs to take less bad shots, but not shots. Kobe takes lots of shots, but most of them are quality ones. Carter I've seen take bad ones, which needs to stop. He is starting to pass it out more, but that is on him. He is a piece to build around someone, but not just any piece. He is a guy who can just explode when he wants almost and can be impossible to guard with his athleticism and speed. Yes, he is no global superstar. It is hard to keep that when you aren't on an expansion team and playing with one of the best PG's of all time in Jason Kidd. Declined is not entirely true. He has become a better distributor, he doesn't always demand the ball and understand that Jason Kidd runs the team, which is great about Carter is that he understands that and knows him and RJ will get the ball often and both will score and win. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Carter wasn't needed in Orlando? Our wings were our biggest holes last year and is even worse this year now that Hill has left. A scoring wing was definitely needed (cue Rashard Lewis) but Otis didn't see Vince as the answer. There were rumors that we'd pursue him but at the start of this off season our priority list had Shard on top. And yes, Shard was overpaid but unlike Carter, he had a career year last year. His addition puts the Magic in good position to contend in a couple years. Yes, New Jersey will also compete in the East but I just don't think Carter was worth the money that he once was.</div> I'm not going to get into what wing players you need because you are a magic fan and that I would surely not win. Lewis had a career year because of 2 things: 1. No Ray Allen. He had no help. He had to score. He was the number 1,2 and 3 option on the team. He shot 3's and was the one winning the sonics games. He kept them in games and lost them games. He did what a leader of a team had to to win 2. Can you say....Contract Year? It is like god shined a light on Lewis. No Allen, he gets all the praise and scores when he wants. His agent was probably buying new things before last season ended. They both knew he was going to leave and they would get a huge contract. Which, on the dumbness of Otis Smith, he got. I guess he had 126 million reasons to play well last year. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Agreed. I think Kidd, Garnett, and Iverson are locks for the Hall of Fame. Carter will probably get in but I just can't see him being a first ballot guy. He has done a lot but the panel may not think it's been enough.</div> Again, we both have the mind scheme on this. We know he will be in, just not first ballot like KG, Iverson or Kidd. The Panel, I think to put Carter on the first ballot, they would need to see him win a championship.
Master, I am not going to go into long debates and stuff, but answer my question: Why do you think Vince Carter should be in the HOF if his career ended today? Tell me something special he did to deserve that?
<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Master, I am not going to go into long debates and stuff, but answer my question: Why do you think Vince Carter should be in the HOF if his career ended today? Tell me something special he did to deserve that?</div> First of all, this is a debate tourney, so you should, but alright Second of all, are you not Reading my posts. Carter is a star, and all star and has had a good career, starting on a bad team. Iverson has had a good career too, just he was Lucky enough to be on a team that went to the finals. As Swish and I were saying, Carter would be a 2nd ballot type of guy because yes, he hasn't done anything "special" by your standards, but is still a career 20PPG guy with about 5 assists per and 4 rebounds. He works hard, has been on I think 5 or 6 all star teams and is clutch. Invalid Video Link He is clutch here. I could post tons of videos on how amazing he is/was and how he is a highlight reel. He is always playing his ass off, and will be in the HOF. Your standards would mean only every person who has won a championship would get in, which is not right at all. I will repeat my self once again. The Hall of Fame is for players, coach and contributors to the game of basketball. Carter is one of the best SG in the game today and era. He will be in the HOF. Invalid Video Link For Umair, nothing special? For Swish, Saying he feel off a bit? Not as much as you think I don't want to turn this into a video debate, but these are just some examples. Umair I don't understand what you have against Carter in the HOF. He is a great player who deserves some praise. Sure he has never won a championship, but so many great player's haven't either. Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley. These guys should are in the HOF because of how great they were/ I know Carter hasn't put up record numbers, but his number are still Top 10 in the league since he came in. The only time he dropped was his 20 injury season. So to say Carter doesn't deserve to be in the Hall is stupid. He is a second/third ballot guy who can light it up and is a 1st or 2nd option for any team.
Like you said earlier, HOF is to the people who make a difference in the game. What difference has Carter made to deserve being in the HOF. I know championships dont matter that much, but common, the guy hasn't been on a real good team and will likely not win a championship when he retires. The question is if he retires today, should he win a championship. You're saying yes. Now let me get more into this. You said Carter is clutch, averages 20 5, and 4, right? Now, if by your standards, Carter should go into the HOF because he averaged 20, 5, and 4 and is clutch do you believe other guards like McGrady, Pierce, and Allen should be in HOF since they all average 20, 5, and 5 and are clutch? Your standards of someone going to the HOF are averaging those stats I mentioned and being an All Star. Then why shouldn't we just send about every All Star to the HOF for that matter? I am not saying send everyone, of course. But, if you think that Carter should be in HOF because of those stats, then do you also think McGrady, Allen, and Pierce should be in HOF also if their careers ended today? <div class="quote_poster">Swish Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Umair, if you think that players like Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, and Jason Kidd don't belong in the Hall Of Fame, I don't even know what to say to you. Jason Kidd is one of the greatest point guards ever (going back to the last debate in this tournament ), Allen Iverson is one of the greatest scorers in the game, and Kevin Garnett is arguably one of the best power forwards of All-Time. It's not always the players fault if they don't win a championship either. Take Garnett for example.</div> Now I never said Iverson, Garnett, and Kidd shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. Master's analogy towards someone being in the HOF is that they should have good stats an be clutch. What I was saying is that if a lot of guards like Mac, Pierce, and Allen can do that then we'd sending just about every all-star guard to the HOF. That is taking the point of HOF away. Like he said before, it should be give to someone who made a difference to the game, what difference if not major then minor difference has Carter made to the game. Just because he averaged good stats and is clutch doesn't mean he deserves a spot in the HOF. Again, I never said Kidd, AI, and Garnett don't deserve HOF.
Umair: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like you said earlier, HOF is to the people who make a difference in the game. What difference has Carter made to deserve being in the HOF. I know championships dont matter that much, but common, the guy hasn't been on a real good team and will likely not win a championship when he retires. </div> If you think logically, yes most likely Carter will not win a championship, but to say he hasn't been on a good team is untrue. The Nets are a good team, missing that good front court. When you have Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson, how can you not be on a good team. With Magloire and Krstic back, they are going to be a lot better then last year in the young and up-coming East. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The question is if he retires today, should he win a championship. You're saying yes. Now let me get more into this. You said Carter is clutch, averages 20 5, and 4, right?</div> Carter is a clutch player. He thrives for that moment. That is what I mean by clutch. When the game is on the line, he doesn't shy away, he wants that last shot. I use stats because it is a small way of proving my argument. I'm not basing his whole career on that. If he did retire today, I think he should get in because he has done some great things and is an exciting player and was the face of an expansion franchise for many years. He made losing fun less paniful because people would come to see Carter. I think if he wasn't drafted, the Raptors might have gone bankrupt because he brought in so much money because of what he could do. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now, if by your standards, Carter should go into the HOF because he averaged 20, 5, and 4 and is clutch do you believe other guards like McGrady, Pierce, and Allen should be in HOF since they all average 20, 5, and 5 and are clutch?</div> You said before Carter shouldn't be in the HOF because he hasn't done anything. He has done way more then McGrady, Pierce and Allen combined. McGrady came out and was a good player. Playing with his cousin in Toronto is not what he needed. He left and got better. He has yet to lead his team past the first round. Even with Yao, a great defender in Shane and the PG you all seem to love Rafer Alston. Pierce was no magician. He is a great player, but to me has not become what he could have. He isn't turning heads like Carter used to and still does from time to time, and now maybe with Allen can turn things around. You are taking what I'm saying and mixing it around. I use stats because they say a little about the player. I think that a player who averages 5 PPG, 2RPG can get in, if he is a solid player who brings something to the table. I'm not naming All-Stars to go in but if you think about it, most of these All-Stars will get in. Guys like Kidd, Shaq, Kobe,Billiups,Parker, most likely Howard, Bosh, LeBron, Wade & Carmelo. These are the face of their franchise. Carter was that for many years. I understand so was McGrady and Pierce. Allen had Lewis, so their was some help. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Your standards of someone going to the HOF are averaging those stats I mentioned and being an All Star. Then why shouldn't we just send about every All Star to the HOF for that matter? I am not saying send everyone, of course. But, if you think that Carter should be in HOF because of those stats, then do you also think McGrady, Allen, and Pierce should be in HOF also if their careers ended today?</div> I think that McGrady, Pierce and Allen would be on the ballot if that is how it worked, because these are stars of this era. They have scored big and are well known. You are basing you argument mostly on HOF. You beef with Carter astounds me. He is a great player who has done some amazing things. He is spectacular more so then McGrady, Pierce and Allen. He can jump out the gym. Win with a team on his shoulders and be the best in the game. I think McGrady can too. Not so much for Pierce and Allen, but that is a different story. Carter is deserving, he took an expansion franchise, made it his own, turned a city onto basketball and helped Toronto become what it is now in terms of ball. He is a human highlight reel and can thrive in any environment.
