Welcome to S2 FOMW.</p> </p> One of the problems is that people have short memories. Its that what you have done for me lately attitude that is keeping people from remembering his good outings back in december/january.</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW)</div><div class='quotemain'> I predict Marcus will have a huge season and will be one of the major reasons that the Nets win 50+ games this year. I strenuously disagree with the naysayers and the typically hyperbolic cpawfan. The kid sees the court as well as anyone playing the game today (Kidd included) and is as good as Stockton or anyone else I've ever seen at passing off the dribble, one-handed, all in one motion. And he can throw any kind of pass that way: bounce, chest, lob, you name it. He has a deft handle and a wonderful change-of-pace control of the ball that will always keep defenders guessing. And, although very streaky, he already shows a great jumper with range.</p> Defense is a problem, and perhaps he will never be a good individual defender, although it's too early to say even that. I think he will be adequate. For matchups that give him fits, that's what team defense is for. It certainly won't be any worse than the Nets having to play 4 on 5 offensively every minute Collins is on the floor. </p> He's in a much different position than a Chris Paul or Deron Williams, who know they're getting the minutes (even under Sloan) no matter what. They know they can play through mistakes. Marcus, both because of the nature of his coach, the age of his teammates, and the guy he's playing behind, does not have that psychological luxury. That's a HUGE difference in terms of what it can do to or for your confidence. </p></div> </p> definitely agree with you there. that's why it'd be impossible to compare deron to marcus. </p> great to have you here, FOMW. </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'> Deron is a year and a half older than Marcus. 18 months! As a rookie, he played roughly 1,000 more minutes--2300 to 1300--that's over 75% more minutes than Marcus! Yet as a rookie, Deron scored just 10.8 points a game, on 42% shooting, with 4.5 assists per game and 1.8 turnovers per game.</p> marcus scored 6.8 points per game and averaged 3.3 assists. At the same rate, had he played the same number of minutes as a rookie as Deron did, he would have scored 12.0 points per game and dished out 5.8 assists. He shot slightly lower from the field (39%) but MUCH higher from the line (84%). Yes, Marcus is bad on defense--according toDean Oliver's defensive rating calculation, he comes out at 109, when the league average is 106 (lower is better). But Deron is just as bad--his rating each ofhis first two years was 110 (this stat, by the way, incorporates a number of assumptions, and I'm not convinced that it is entirely valid, but it seems to do a reasonable job separating defenders into discrete categories).</p> Deron made a huge jump his second year. Marcus could, too. But remember, he is still YOUNGER than Deron was when he was a rookie. Give the kid some slack.</p> Some of you hate Marcus and think he won't amount to anything. We get it. I prefer to wait and see.</div> </p> In a radio interview last year, Thorn was asked what he thought Williams could do as a starter in the league...now. He was succinct and quite specific, which for him was surprising: He said he figured about 14 ppg and top five in assists. Of course, he would have to be playing for a team for whom defense didnt matter, like the Hawks.</p> Last year, at thistime, first reports of Nachbar's improvement began to filter out of the practice facility. Virtually no one thought he would be a key player. He was Bernard Robinson with a jump shot. Maybe Williams is this year'sNachbar. (And do note that Dave D'Alessandro is not a big fan of Williams. His guy was Hassan Adams.) </p> </p> </p> </p> </p>
The result of fantasy drafts by fans have no bearing on anyone's skills. </p> I mean really. </p> The kid is 21 years old. Last year, he was the youngest Net in the last 25 years. (By the way, the second youngest Net in the last 25 years is Sean Williams who just turned 21 last week.) Physically, as well as emotionally, he was immature. But one positive sign in his growth is that he admitted it. He said he was surprised at the toll 100 games had taken on him and he said that his confidence was shot. No false bravado. </p> I don't know what Jason Kidd was like emotionally his rookie year when he was 21 and thrown into a starting job for a mediocre team. I do know that Williams averaged more points per 48 minutes (19.7)than Kidd (16.6)and almost as many assists (10.9 to 9.5) per 48 in their rookie years. Williams wasn't even that far behindyoung Kidd in rebounding. Kidd averaged 7.7 per 48, Williams 6.0. Moreover, I know that in terms of turnovers, Williams averaged 5.1 per 48 minutes, Kidd 4.5, not much of a difference. I also know their shooting percentages were very equivalent...both shot less than40% overall and less than 30% from beyond the arc. Williams shot 39.5% overall, Kidd 38.5%. Williams shot 28.2% from beyond the arc, Kidd 27.2%</p> Kidd, like Deron Williams anda LOT of other point guards, made great strides his second year. You guys expected too much from Williams last year. Prepare to be surprised. </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'> In a radio interview last year, Thorn was asked what he thought Williams could do as a starter in the league...now. He was succinct and quite specific, which for him was surprising: He said he figured about 14 ppg and top five in assists.</div></p> I agree with this, but it doesn't change my opinion that I'd rather have someone else.</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'> In a radio interview last year, Thorn was asked what he thought Williams could do as a starter in the league...now. He was succinct and quite specific, which for him was surprising: He said he figured about 14 ppg and top five in assists.</div></p> I agree with this, but it doesn't change my opinion that I'd rather have someone else. </p> </p> </div></p> "Someone else" sounds remarkably like the mythical "power forward". No name, just a concept.</p> At the time the Nets picked, they had a choice of FIVE pg's: Williams, Lowry, Rodrigez, Farmar and Collins, all of whom were sitting there. With the Nets in need of someone to back up Kidd long term as well as short term, I still think Williams was--and is--the best choice. Lowry is too short. Rodriguez has potential but cant play defense and his offense reminds one of White Chocolate. Farmar...maybe. I would have been happy with him, but he had an opportunity and didnt do that well. As for Mardy Collins, he did better than expected at the end of year, being in superb condition other than some splinters. </p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'> In a radio interview last year, Thorn was asked what he thought Williams could do as a starter in the league...now. He was succinct and quite specific, which for him was surprising: He said he figured about 14 ppg and top five in assists.</div></p> I agree with this, but it doesn't change my opinion that I'd rather have someone else. </p> </p> </div></p> "Someone else" sounds remarkably like the mythical "power forward". No name, just a concept. </p> At the time the Nets picked, they had a choice of FIVE pg's: Williams, Lowry, Rodrigez, Farmar and Collins, all of whom were sitting there. With the Nets in need of someone to back up Kidd long term as well as short term, I still think Williams was--and is--the best choice. Lowry is too short. Rodriguez has potential but cant play defense and his offense reminds one of White Chocolate. Farmar...maybe. I would have been happy with him, but he had an opportunity and didnt do that well. As for Mardy Collins, he did better than expected at the end of year, being in superb condition other than some splinters. </p> </div></p> I don't love any of them as an NBA starter.</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW)</div><div class='quotemain'> I predict Marcus will have a huge season and will be one of the major reasons that the Nets win 50+ games this year. I strenuously disagree with the naysayers and the typically hyperbolic cpawfan. The kid sees the court as well as anyone playing the game today (Kidd included) and is as good as Stockton or anyone else I've ever seen at passing off the dribble, one-handed, all in one motion. And he can throw any kind of pass that way: bounce, chest, lob, you name it. He has a deft handle and a wonderful change-of-pace control of the ball that will always keep defenders guessing. And, although very streaky, he already shows a great jumper with range.</p> Defense is a problem, and perhaps he will never be a good individual defender, although it's too early to say even that. I think he will be adequate. For matchups that give him fits, that's what team defense is for. It certainly won't be any worse than the Nets having to play 4 on 5 offensively every minute Collins is on the floor. </p> He's in a much different position than a Chris Paul or Deron Williams, who know they're getting the minutes (even under Sloan) no matter what. They know they can play through mistakes. Marcus, both because of the nature of his coach, the age of his teammates, and the guy he's playing behind, does not have that psychological luxury. That's a HUGE difference in terms of what it can do to or for your confidence. </p></div> Nice to have you here, FOMW. Can't wait to read more of your posts. They're always in-depth. </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'> "Someone else" sounds remarkably like the mythical "power forward". No name, just a concept. </p> At the time the Nets picked, they had a choice of FIVE pg's: Williams, Lowry, Rodrigez, Farmar and Collins, all of whom were sitting there. With the Nets in need of someone to back up Kidd long term as well as short term, I still think Williams was--and is--the best choice. Lowry is too short. Rodriguez has potential but cant play defense and his offense reminds one of White Chocolate. Farmar...maybe. I would have been happy with him, but he had an opportunity and didnt do that well. As for Mardy Collins, he did better than expected at the end of year, being in superb condition other than some splinters. </p> </p></div> It is what it is. Sunk cost is sunk cost. ghoti isn't talking about redrafting or changing history, he is purely talking about moving forward. I know how highly ghoti thought of Marcus at draft time in 2006. A move could have been made this summer to obtain another PG.</p> Considering that Frank was very comfortable with Vaughn, the standard for finding a FA PG isn't very high and is pretty easy to fill. </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'> I don't love any of them as an NBA starter.</p> </p></div> Nets don't need a starter. What they need is a quality backup this season.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'> "Someone else" sounds remarkably like the mythical "power forward". No name, just a concept. </p> At the time the Nets picked, they had a choice of FIVE pg's: Williams, Lowry, Rodrigez, Farmar and Collins, all of whom were sitting there. With the Nets in need of someone to back up Kidd long term as well as short term, I still think Williams was--and is--the best choice. Lowry is too short. Rodriguez has potential but cant play defense and his offense reminds one of White Chocolate. Farmar...maybe. I would have been happy with him, but he had an opportunity and didnt do that well. As for Mardy Collins, he did better than expected at the end of year, being in superb condition other than some splinters. </p> </p></div> It is what it is. Sunk cost is sunk cost. ghoti isn't talking about redrafting or changing history, he is purely talking about moving forward. I know how highly ghoti thought of Marcus at draft time in 2006. A move could have been made this summer to obtain another PG.</p> Considering that Frank was very comfortable with Vaughn, the standard for finding a FA PG isn't very high and is pretty easy to fill. </p> </div></p> That's the point I'm apparently not getting across.</p> There's still a lot of things I like about Marcus. I'm simply saying if I were in charge, I would not feel confident going in that direction.</p> I also think he has far too much responsibility heading into this season, which is the #1 problem the Nets have right now, IMO.</p> </p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> "Someone else" sounds remarkably like the mythical "power forward". No name, just a concept.</p> At the time the Nets picked, they had a choice of FIVE pg's: Williams, Lowry, Rodrigez, Farmar and Collins, all of whom were sitting there. With the Nets in need of someone to back up Kidd long term as well as short term, I still think Williams was--and is--the best choice. Lowry is too short. Rodriguez has potential but cant play defense and his offense reminds one of White Chocolate. Farmar...maybe. I would have been happy with him, but he had an opportunity and didnt do that well. As for Mardy Collins, he did better than expected at the end of year, being in superb condition other than some splinters.</p> </p> </div></p> It is what it is. Sunk cost is sunk cost. ghoti isn't talking about redrafting or changing history, he is purely talking about moving forward. I know how highly ghoti thought of Marcus at draft time in 2006. A move could have been made this summer to obtain another PG.</p> Considering that Frank was very comfortable with Vaughn, the standard for finding a FA PG isn't very high and is pretty easy to fill.</p> </div></p> Darrell Armstrong will be free in a week. I think Ilic will be bought out, freeing up a space. The question is whether the Nets will be willing to do for a backup PG like Armstrong what they have not been willing to do for Robert Hite, Malik Allen or Allan Houston: that is, give him a guaranteed deal.</p> </p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> "Someone else" sounds remarkably like the mythical "power forward". No name, just a concept.</p> At the time the Nets picked, they had a choice of FIVE pg's: Williams, Lowry, Rodrigez, Farmar and Collins, all of whom were sitting there. With the Nets in need of someone to back up Kidd long term as well as short term, I still think Williams was--and is--the best choice. Lowry is too short. Rodriguez has potential but cant play defense and his offense reminds one of White Chocolate. Farmar...maybe. I would have been happy with him, but he had an opportunity and didnt do that well. As for Mardy Collins, he did better than expected at the end of year, being in superb condition other than some splinters.</p> </p> </div></p> It is what it is. Sunk cost is sunk cost. ghoti isn't talking about redrafting or changing history, he is purely talking about moving forward. I know how highly ghoti thought of Marcus at draft time in 2006. A move could have been made this summer to obtain another PG.</p> Considering that Frank was very comfortable with Vaughn, the standard for finding a FA PG isn't very high and is pretty easy to fill.</p> </div></p> That's the point I'm apparently not getting across.</p> There's still a lot of things I like about Marcus. I'm simply saying if I were in charge, I would not feel confident going in that direction.</p> I also think he has far too much responsibility heading into this season, which is the #1 problem the Nets have right now, IMO.</p> </p> </p> </div></p> I will reiterate what Dave Dalessandro said of him at the end of last year and during the summer...</p> "Broken record alert, because you've heard me say this 1,000 times: You never judge a point guard after only one season. It takes two or three years for most of them to figure it out, and half the development is between the ears."</p> I simply do not understand how anyone can make a judgment about Williams after seeing him play one year. And do not forget, in spite of his issues, in spite of Kidd's big minutes, Marcus Williams was second in assists among back up point guards last year, after Jose Calderon.</p> </p> </p>
I'm ready to see Williams this year. I mean, it HAS to be tough on you mentally knowing that expectations are so high (I mean, which backup expecations wouldn't be high especially if you're playing with Kidd? ) Some rookies have a rougher transition than others- and his wasn't even that bad. What it really comes down to is one of two things: Williams buckles up and proves critics wrong who doubt him, or he straps down and has a slightly better season this year. I think he's going to go with the former.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Darrell Armstrong will be free in a week. I think Ilic will be bought out, freeing up a space. The question is whether the Nets will be willing to do for a backup PG like Armstrong what they have not been willing to do for Robert Hite, Malik Allen or Allan Houston: that is, give him a guaranteed deal.</p> </div></p> Damon Stoudamire may be free also. Which would you rather have?</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Darrell Armstrong will be free in a week. I think Ilic will be bought out, freeing up a space. The question is whether the Nets will be willing to do for a backup PG like Armstrong what they have not been willing to do for Robert Hite, Malik Allen or Allan Houston: that is, give him a guaranteed deal.</p> </div></p> Damon Stoudamire may be free also. Which would you rather have?</p> </p> </div></p> Armstrong. by a mile.</p> Keep Stoudamire the hell away from Marcus Williams.</p> </p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Darrell Armstrong will be free in a week. I think Ilic will be bought out, freeing up a space. The question is whether the Nets will be willing to do for a backup PG like Armstrong what they have not been willing to do for Robert Hite, Malik Allen or Allan Houston: that is, give him a guaranteed deal.</p> </div></p> Damon Stoudamire may be free also. Which would you rather have?</p> </p> </div></p> Armstrong. by a mile.</p> Keep Stoudamire the hell away from Marcus Williams.</p> </div></p> </p> Definitely agree. Stoudamire is exactly the type of player we don't want Marcus becoming.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Maybe we can grab Jason Hart in the midseason Utah trade...</p> </div></p> don't even get my hopes up, haha.</p> </p>
