<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phoenixmolochia89)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> </p> defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p> </div></p> And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p> </div></p> Again, I've never argued that Collins is the best thing since sliced bread, but just that he can mesh wellwith the other personnel. I think that demoting Collins to the second unit would be a disaster. I think the starting unit would be marginally better, if at all, and the reserve unit would be much worse. My position is that, if Collins is on the team (which I accept as a given), he should play with the starters, and that should include Sean instead of Krstic. I've made no mystery of it, and no one has ever explained why I'm wrong about this other than to type "Collins sucks."</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phoenixmolochia89)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> </p> defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p> </div></p> And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p> </div></p> Again, I've never argued that Collins is the best thing since sliced bread, but just that he can mesh wellwith the other personnel. I think that demoting Collins to the second unit would be a disaster. I think the starting unit would be marginally better, if at all, and the reserve unit would be much worse. My position is that, if Collins is on the team (which I accept as a given), he should play with the starters, and that should include Sean instead of Krstic. I've made no mystery of it, and no one has ever explained why I'm wrong about this other than to type "Collins sucks."</p> </div></p> Thing is with Collins, you know what you have. I think that many of us are coming at from the pov that if you try somebody else (giving him the same minutes and the same stable role; a legitimate shot), you may come out with someone that helps the team better. Nothing to do with starting. Just the minutes. Williams is sure looking good. Next, why not give a big chunk of defined minutes to Magloire, yes, even Boone. Starting Magloire one game and benching him the next ain't a legit opportunity. Playing Boonie 2 minutes here and there ain't either. Nobody (at least me) is saying these guys are the best thing since sliced bread either. But we know what we have with Collins on a consistent basis now for years. The other guys, we don't. Magloire may come around and cash the Kidd Dividend. Boonie can rebound, he *should* be able to play some D and get a few points. Or not. Try things for a 15 games or so. If it don't work; go back.</p> For me, I'd be aiming at 80 to 90 minutes from Krstic, Magloire and Williams. OK Krystic's situation kind of nullifies that to a large degree. Magloire may not pan out and the idea may go south. But until proven wrong, I'm not seeing any reason, really, why we automaticallly have to pencil in that many minutes for Collins as a given.</p> And yes...saying "Collins sucks" doesn't add much to a discussion but stuff like that, on the other other hand is just part of being a sports fan. Who ever goes to a game and yells "Hey ref, you may have missed a call there but overall I think you're really trying and like everyone you have your strong points!!".?</p> </p>
the fewer minutes Collins plays this season, the fewer triple doubles Kidd will have, he'll be shy a rebound or two.
I think The Nets need the W, not the number of triple double.</p> Just like yesterday against the Magic, I am not happy at all while Kidd is 11 points 19 rebounds 10 assists.</p>
Only let Collins start from the bench would motivate him.</p> He finally made a shot tonight, this is what we need.</p> He can play in some minutes, but hell, not asa starter.</p> Yeah,someone said Collins helped us to score well in the offensive end, but in the first quarter against the Heat,</p> we have almost a perfect offense even without Carter.</p> Keep Doing this, Frank. Until Carter is back, this team will be so strong.</p>
I was watching jurrasic park the other day and i think i saw a JAMAAL MAGLOIRASAURUS in the background. Seriously, guys like him are extinct in the NBA and i dont think there are more than 5 teams he can match up with, IF that. Collins shouldnt be starting either, but hell, i dont even know what to do with this team anymore.</p>
[quote name='Teaneck_Armory_Guy']</p> [quote name='Dumpy']</p> [quote name='phoenixmolochia89']</p> [quote name='Dumpy']</p> </p> defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p> [/QUOTE]</p> And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p> [/QUOTE]</p> Again, I've never argued that Collins is the best thing since sliced bread, but just that he can mesh wellwith the other personnel. I think that demoting Collins to the second unit would be a disaster. I think the starting unit would be marginally better, if at all, and the reserve unit would be much worse. My position is that, if Collins is on the team (which I accept as a given), he should play with the starters, and that should include Sean instead of Krstic. I've made no mystery of it, and no one has ever explained why I'm wrong about this other than to type "Collins sucks."</p> [/QUOTE]</p> Thing is with Collins, you know what you have. I think that many of us are coming at from the pov that if you try somebody else (giving him the same minutes and the same stable role; a legitimate shot), you may come out with someone that helps the team better. Nothing to do with starting. Just the minutes. Williams is sure looking good. Next, why not give a big chunk of defined minutes to Magloire, yes, even Boone. Starting Magloire one game and benching him the next ain't a legit opportunity. Playing Boonie 2 minutes here and there ain't either. Nobody (at least me) is saying these guys are the best thing since sliced bread either. But we know what we have with Collins on a consistent basis now for years. The other guys, we don't. Magloire may come around and cash the Kidd Dividend. Boonie can rebound, he *should* be able to play some D and get a few points. Or not. Try things for a 15 games or so. If it don't work; go back.</p> For me, I'd be aiming at 80 to 90 minutes from Krstic, Magloire and Williams. OK Krystic's situation kind of nullifies that to a large degree. Magloire may not pan out and the idea may go south. But until proven wrong, I'm not seeing any reason, really, why we automaticallly have to pencil in that many minutes for Collins as a given.</p> And yes...saying "Collins sucks" doesn't add much to a discussion but stuff like that, on the other other hand is just part of being a sports fan. Who ever goes to a game and yells "Hey ref, you may have missed a call there but overall I think you're really trying and like everyone you have your strong points!!".?</p> </p> [/QUOTE]</p> </p> Watching you two have a discussion is one of the most entertaining things I have ever read. The only thing that would make this better is to have FOMW join in. Please continue, I love the points you guys are making!</p>
Ya know. Truth be known, I get a lot out of Dumpy's posts. I misunderstood some of the things he was saying at first, what with posts all over the place to sort thru. Don't always agree with him, but he challenges you and makes you think.</p>
that's why I was calling Williams 3000 last night. Yes, due to the resemeblence of Andre 3000 of Outkast, but also because, damn, this dude's from the year 3000! The way of the future!
Too late.</p> It took five years to find Sean Williams - who is not the second coming of Bill Russell - just a good athlete who can play around the rim.</p> </p> </p>
I read somewhere a while back that Collins was a Mark Madsen type player; On a winning team his strengths and abilities are able to be utilized without having his weaknesses exposed, but when his role is too large due to the personel around him, his team will struggle.</p> As much as I really do not enjoy what he does, his specific strengths are impressive, however what we ask of him every night is far beyond what he is able to do and still win the game. I just think he is a poor fit with this team but we are stuck with him due to his large contract.</p> Seems we just have to shut up and deal.</p>
[quote name='Teaneck_Armory_Guy']</p> [quote name='Dumpy']</p> [quote name='phoenixmolochia89']</p> [quote name='Dumpy']</p> </p> defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p> [/QUOTE]</p> And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p> [/QUOTE]</p> Again, I've never argued that Collins is the best thing since sliced bread, but just that he can mesh wellwith the other personnel. I think that demoting Collins to the second unit would be a disaster. I think the starting unit would be marginally better, if at all, and the reserve unit would be much worse. My position is that, if Collins is on the team (which I accept as a given), he should play with the starters, and that should include Sean instead of Krstic. I've made no mystery of it, and no one has ever explained why I'm wrong about this other than to type "Collins sucks."</p> [/QUOTE]</p> Thing is with Collins, you know what you have. I think that many of us are coming at from the pov that if you try somebody else (giving him the same minutes and the same stable role; a legitimate shot), you may come out with someone that helps the team better. Nothing to do with starting. Just the minutes. Williams is sure looking good. Next, why not give a big chunk of defined minutes to Magloire, yes, even Boone. Starting Magloire one game and benching him the next ain't a legit opportunity. Playing Boonie 2 minutes here and there ain't either. Nobody (at least me) is saying these guys are the best thing since sliced bread either. But we know what we have with Collins on a consistent basis now for years. The other guys, we don't. Magloire may come around and cash the Kidd Dividend. Boonie can rebound, he *should* be able to play some D and get a few points. Or not. Try things for a 15 games or so. If it don't work; go back.</p> For me, I'd be aiming at 80 to 90 minutes from Krstic, Magloire and Williams. OK Krystic's situation kind of nullifies that to a large degree. Magloire may not pan out and the idea may go south. But until proven wrong, I'm not seeing any reason, really, why we automaticallly have to pencil in that many minutes for Collins as a given.</p> And yes...saying "Collins sucks" doesn't add much to a discussion but stuff like that, on the other other hand is just part of being a sports fan. Who ever goes to a game and yells "Hey ref, you may have missed a call there but overall I think you're really trying and like everyone you have your strong points!!".?</p> [/QUOTE]</p> </p> If that's your position, I have no problem with it. I am working with a different set of assumptions, though, which are that Collins will be part of the rotation, and play some consisitent number of minutes. The question I'm trying to answer is: How to best use him, with his skills and weaknesses, to give the team the best chance to win? I have MY answer, but I'll never know if I'm right or not, because I doubt it will ever happen. As for Magoire: I suspect that, all in all, he won't be any better, because he just doesn't do very much right. This is his fourth team in the last four years, since his rookie deal expired, and there has to be a reason for that. Everyone knows I'd love to see Boone step up, because I think he could succeed here, but something is going on with him and because we don't see the practices we don't really know what he is struggling with.</p> See, I'd have a rotation something like this (making this up as I go along)</p> Starters: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Sean, Collins.</p> at 4:00 mark (counting down): Take out RJ, Collins. Now have Kidd, Wright, Carter, Sean, Krstic</p> 2nd period: Marcus, Wright, RJ, Krstic, Magloire.</p> mid-second period: Kidd, Carter,Wright, Magloire, Krstic.</p> late second quarter: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Nachbar, Krstic/Sean</p> Third period: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Sean, Collins.</p> etc.</p> I really think this is better than putting Krstic in the starting lineup and Collins with one of the reserve combinations. It is more balanced. Obviously, Krstic would play more than Collins, but he'd play when one or more of Kidd, Carter, and RJ are out of the game, and they run more set plays for him against mostly a backup center.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Jason Kidd wants Collins in the game, so Collins is in the game.</p> </div></p> A few days ago I read somewhere that Kidd prefers Sean Williams in the game.</p> </p>
[quote name='Dumpy']</p> [quote name='Teaneck_Armory_Guy']</p> [quote name='Dumpy']</p> [quote name='phoenixmolochia89']</p> [quote name='Dumpy']</p> </p> defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p> [/QUOTE]</p> And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p> [/QUOTE]</p> Again, I've never argued that Collins is the best thing since sliced bread, but just that he can mesh wellwith the other personnel. I think that demoting Collins to the second unit would be a disaster. I think the starting unit would be marginally better, if at all, and the reserve unit would be much worse. My position is that, if Collins is on the team (which I accept as a given), he should play with the starters, and that should include Sean instead of Krstic. I've made no mystery of it, and no one has ever explained why I'm wrong about this other than to type "Collins sucks."</p> [/QUOTE]</p> Thing is with Collins, you know what you have. I think that many of us are coming at from the pov that if you try somebody else (giving him the same minutes and the same stable role; a legitimate shot), you may come out with someone that helps the team better. Nothing to do with starting. Just the minutes. Williams is sure looking good. Next, why not give a big chunk of defined minutes to Magloire, yes, even Boone. Starting Magloire one game and benching him the next ain't a legit opportunity. Playing Boonie 2 minutes here and there ain't either. Nobody (at least me) is saying these guys are the best thing since sliced bread either. But we know what we have with Collins on a consistent basis now for years. The other guys, we don't. Magloire may come around and cash the Kidd Dividend. Boonie can rebound, he *should* be able to play some D and get a few points. Or not. Try things for a 15 games or so. If it don't work; go back.</p> For me, I'd be aiming at 80 to 90 minutes from Krstic, Magloire and Williams. OK Krystic's situation kind of nullifies that to a large degree. Magloire may not pan out and the idea may go south. But until proven wrong, I'm not seeing any reason, really, why we automaticallly have to pencil in that many minutes for Collins as a given.</p> And yes...saying "Collins sucks" doesn't add much to a discussion but stuff like that, on the other other hand is just part of being a sports fan. Who ever goes to a game and yells "Hey ref, you may have missed a call there but overall I think you're really trying and like everyone you have your strong points!!".?</p> [/QUOTE]</p> </p> If that's your position, I have no problem with it. I am working with a different set of assumptions, though, which are that Collins will be part of the rotation, and play some consisitent number of minutes. The question I'm trying to answer is: How to best use him, with his skills and weaknesses, to give the team the best chance to win? I have MY answer, but I'll never know if I'm right or not, because I doubt it will ever happen. As for Magoire: I suspect that, all in all, he won't be any better, because he just doesn't do very much right. This is his fourth team in the last four years, since his rookie deal expired, and there has to be a reason for that. Everyone knows I'd love to see Boone step up, because I think he could succeed here, but something is going on with him and because we don't see the practices we don't really know what he is struggling with.</p> See, I'd have a rotation something like this (making this up as I go along)</p> Starters: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Sean, Collins.</p> at 4:00 mark (counting down): Take out RJ, Collins. Now have Kidd, Wright, Carter, Sean, Krstic</p> 2nd period: Marcus, Wright, RJ, Krstic, Magloire.</p> mid-second period: Kidd, Carter,Wright, Magloire, Krstic.</p> late second quarter: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Nachbar, Krstic/Sean</p> Third period: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Sean, Collins.</p> etc.</p> I really think this is better than putting Krstic in the starting lineup and Collins with one of the reserve combinations. It is more balanced. Obviously, Krstic would play more than Collins, but he'd play when one or more of Kidd, Carter, and RJ are out of the game, and they run more set plays for him against mostly a backup center.</p> [/QUOTE]</p> </p> I wish we can send this post to Frank....</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Jason Kidd wants Collins in the game, so Collins is in the game.</p> </div></p> </p> </p> Where'd you hear that?</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Jason Kidd wants Collins in the game, so Collins is in the game.</p> </div></p> </p> </p> Where'd you hear that?</p> </div></p> Are you serious?</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> I wish we can send this post to Frank....</p> </div></p> </p> He already uses Collins mostly the way I would use him . . . with just the starting unit . . . I think he is right on with that. My only real change would be to let Krstic play with the reserves--that is, when one or more of Kidd, Carter, and RJ are not in the game--and play Sean with Collins in the starting unit. Krstic would be a force off the bench against backup centers, and would prevent offensive lulls in the second qaurter.</p>
at least, Frank is showing he can tweak te starting lineup. Moreover, the team is looking to be less reliant on Collins.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'>As for Magoire: I suspect that, all in all, he won't be any better, because he just doesn't do very much right. This is his fourth team in the last four years, since his rookie deal expired, and there has to be a reason for that.</div></p> </p> On that, there are a list of sensible reasons as to why Magloire has been with four teams in the last four years.</p> With New Orleans, there was some success there, they got to the playoffs, but eventually they just wanted to blow it all up. They got rid of Magloire and Davis.</p> With his next team, the Bucks, they already had Gadzuric, Bogut, and eventually Villanueva. He got minutes, produced well, but there wasn't really room for him. So off he goes, to Portland.</p> In Portland, there was already a glut of big men. Randolph, Aldridge, Przybilla demanded alot of minutes. Still, Magloire got some minutes, and produced...but there wasn't really a need for him in Portland.</p> Now, with him "not being any better", history(in Portland at least) says that basically, Magloire sucks at the beginning of the season, and really starts playing by mid-season. What I'm basically saying with that is don't completely give up on him...we could see improvement by mid-season. If we don't, then I guess that'd mean he sucks now.</p>
