"Danny Ainge is the chief reason for the turnaround"

Gorman enjoying ride with Celtics

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Gorman said Danny Ainge is the chief reason for the turnaround because he followed a definite plan.

"<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">I thought Danny was always very consistent all along, but people didn't want to hear it," said Gorman. "What he kept saying was, 'I'm going to gather here as many good young players as I can and one of two things is going to happen - either they're going to come together and jell, or I'll be able to use them as chips to get veteran players to become a better team that way</span>.' "</div>

I did not write the article. I am not Gorman. But I certainly agree - and have been saying this all along! Thanks Mike!

 

Yes, he's the best.

Kevin McHale being a complete idiot and Danny's friend had nothing to do with it.

 

Kevin McHale is part of the Sonics organization? Kevin McHale helped the Celtics decide who to trade and who to draft over the years? Kevin McHale helped Ainge acquire the young players necessary for all this to happen? That's news to me.

And if you look at the Wolves - I actually think they are in pretty good shape for the future.

 

The fundamental flaw with the quote in the original post is that Ainge did a poor job of collecting young talent. After all of his drafting and dealing, he had 3 trading chips at the end of last season, Paul Pierce, Al Jefferson and the lottery pick.

If Sam Presti wasn't given orders to make the Sonics suck so that they would be easier to move the team out of Seattle, Ray wouldn't be a Celtic and therefore KG wouldn't be a Celtic.

Danny Ainge is an incompetent buffoon that got lucky.

 

and of course there are those people who, for whatever reason, will never give Ainge credit for the Celtics current good fortune.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ainge did a poor job of collecting young talent. After all of his drafting and dealing, he had 3 trading chips at the end of last season, Paul Pierce, Al Jefferson and the lottery pick.</div>

Completely false.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Causeway @ Dec 21 2007, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kevin McHale is part of the Sonics organization? Kevin McHale helped the Celtics decide who to trade and who to draft over the years? Kevin McHale helped Ainge acquire the young players necessary for all this to happen? That's news to me.

And if you look at the Wolves - I actually think they are in pretty good shape for the future.</div>

So basically, you are giving Ainge credit for the one year they sucked bad enough to draft Al Jefferson? Great job, then.

And the Wolves are possibly the most colossal NBA failure of all time. Who cares if they are a playoff team in 2010? The damage has already been done.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Causeway @ Dec 21 2007, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> and of course there are those people who, for whatever reason, will never give Ainge credit for the Celtics current good fortune.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ainge did a poor job of collecting young talent. After all of his drafting and dealing, he had 3 trading chips at the end of last season, Paul Pierce, Al Jefferson and the lottery pick.</div>

Completely false.
</div>

Please oh please tell me the other trading chips that had value to other teams in the NBA.

Please oh please tell me the young talent that he collected and how it was better than the talent he passed over

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Dec 21 2007, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So basically, you are giving Ainge credit for the one year they sucked bad enough to draft Al Jefferson? Great job, then.</div>

What's that supposed to mean? You're talking as though we sucked bad enough that we were awarded one of the top picks and were guaranteed a sure-fire star. Al Jefferson was the 15th pick in the draft and was highly doubted by many people. Some people thought it was a terrible pick and that Big Al was going to be a bust... a lot of people. So, you're comment here makes no sense.

Gerald Green at 18 was phenomenal as well. Has he panned out? No, but based on his value at the time, that was an absolute steal. Ryan Gomes at 50? How about Tony Allen at 25? Before that torn ACL, TA was playing serious ball and showing that he was a real steal in the draft. Then you've got Rajon Rondo at 21... he had Rondo rated as one of the top players in the draft. He saw that one coming as well.

Danny Ainge is one of the better scouts out there. Question some of the moves he has made in the past, but not his ability to evaluate talent. Saying that everything that has happened is "luck" is a complete joke.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Dec 21 2007, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Causeway @ Dec 21 2007, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kevin McHale is part of the Sonics organization? Kevin McHale helped the Celtics decide who to trade and who to draft over the years? Kevin McHale helped Ainge acquire the young players necessary for all this to happen? That's news to me.

And if you look at the Wolves - I actually think they are in pretty good shape for the future.</div>

So basically, you are giving Ainge credit for the one year they sucked bad enough to draft Al Jefferson? Great job, then.


</div>

Delonte West
Tony Allen
Gerald Green
Ryan Gomes
Kendrick Perkins
Rondo
Glen Davis
etc...

I am not at all only giving Ainge credit for Big Al, although clearly in some twisted "logic" you are. He was drafted at #15 by the way, never a sure thing at 15.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And the Wolves are possibly the most colossal NBA failure of all time. Who cares if they are a playoff team in 2010? The damage has already been done.</div>

I'd say Wolves fans for one will care. And I'd start with the current Knicks on my list of colossal NBA failures of all time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Causeway)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'>And the Wolves are possibly the most colossal NBA failure of all time. Who cares if they are a playoff team in 2010? The damage has already been done.</div>

I'd say Wolves fans for one will care. And I'd start with the current Knicks on my list of colossal NBA failures of all time.
</div>

The T-Wolves are a far bigger disaster than the Knicks. The Knicks didn't throw away a legendary player's career.

T-Wolves fans are going to view thier first round exit in 2010 as a good thing after watching Garnett play in the playoffs for the Celtics for the next few years? Haha. No.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Dec 21 2007, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Causeway @ Dec 21 2007, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> and of course there are those people who, for whatever reason, will never give Ainge credit for the Celtics current good fortune.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ainge did a poor job of collecting young talent. After all of his drafting and dealing, he had 3 trading chips at the end of last season, Paul Pierce, Al Jefferson and the lottery pick.</div>

Completely false.
</div>

Please oh please tell me the other trading chips that had value to other teams in the NBA.

Please oh please tell me the young talent that he collected and how it was better than the talent he passed over
</div>

Delonte West had some value around the league. He's no star, but he is a very solid role player. Theo Ratliff's contract had a lot of value, and people are too afraid to look outside the box to realize that the trade in 2006 was NOT centered around Sebastian Telfair. Danny Ainge made that deal because he was not infatuated with anybody at the top of the draft and he wanted some financial flexibility to work with in order to make something big happen in the future. Telfair was a throw-in, someone worth taking a flyer on (especially since we didn't have Rondo at the time and we needed a point guard).

Gerald Green's potential factor had a lot of value around the league. He has been a disappointment this year, but he certainly was highly thought of around the league and is a guy we could have put in a package last year to bring in a real player. I'm glad that didn't happen, or we'd be the Denver Nuggets without a real center like Camby.

Tony Allen did have value before he tore his ACL.

Players had some trade value, it wasn't all Al Jefferson and it wasn't "luck."

 

I'm sorry, but Al Jefferson is not a franchise player, and that was the chip that Ainge dealt to his buddy McHale to land Garnett.

Garnett being available in the first place is incredible luck, being able to acquire him at this point for that price is stupid luck, and having McHale being the one in control of him was stupendous luck.

It was the perfect storm of incompetence and good fortune.

 

2003 Draft - at least he ended up with Perkins, but considering that he could have had two of David West, Josh Howard and Leandro Barbosa that was a poor job

2004 Draft - While Delonte West and Tony Allen are decent, he passed on Kevin Martin and Anderson Varejao

2006 Draft - Trading away the #7 pick for Telfair was tremendous failure. Could have had either Rudy Gay, Randy Foye or like Portland traded for Brandon Roy

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Dec 21 2007, 12:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm sorry, but Al Jefferson is not a franchise player</div>

Why don't you think Al Jefferson is a franchise player? He isn't an absolute freak such as LeBron or Dwight, but Big Al is one of the best young players in this league and one of the most unique talents in the game. He is certainly somebody you can build around, and I do believe he should be considered a franchise player.

Still... I do not believe for one second that people even understand what Al Jefferson is capable of. They see the numbers and say "good scorer, but he's padding stats on a young team." First of all, no that's not the case. Secondly, it's how how many points he puts up - it's HOW he puts them up. His low-post arsenal is wider than any player in the league not named Tim Duncan. That also is not a homer comment... I am not a delusional homer, that is the truth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Dec 21 2007, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>2003 Draft - at least he ended up with Perkins, but considering that he could have had two of David West, Josh Howard and Leandro Barbosa that was a poor job

2004 Draft - While Delonte West and Tony Allen are decent, he passed on Kevin Martin and Anderson Varejao

2006 Draft - Trading away the #7 pick for Telfair was tremendous failure. Could have had either Rudy Gay, Randy Foye or like Portland traded for Brandon Roy</div>

Once again, the 2006 trade was NOT centered around Sebastian Telfair. Danny Ainge made that deal because he was not infatuated with anybody at the top of the draft and he wanted some financial flexibility to work with in order to make something big happen in the future. Telfair was a throw-in, someone worth taking a flyer on (especially since we didn't have Rondo at the time and we needed a point guard). The trade wasn't "#7 for Telfair" as people think. It was more like "I'm not impressed with many players here, so why add another young player that doesn't fill a need? Let's deal the pick and shave 2 years off of Raef LaFrentz's salary, and make something happen for Paul."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Dec 21 2007, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why don't you think Al Jefferson is a franchise player? He isn't an absolute freak such as LeBron or Dwight, but Big Al is one of the best young players in this league and one of the most unique talents in the game. He is certainly somebody you can build around, and I do believe he should be considered a franchise player.

Still... I do not believe for one second that people even understand what Al Jefferson is capable of. They see the numbers and say "good scorer, but he's padding stats on a young team." First of all, no that's not the case. Secondly, it's how how many points he puts up - it's HOW he puts them up. His low-post arsenal is wider than any player in the league not named Tim Duncan. That also is not a homer comment... I am not a delusional homer, that is the truth.</div>

That's a sunny view of him. I think he's more like a very rich man's Zach Randolph. A valuable piece on a good team or a star on a bad one, but he's not carrying anyone to a title.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Once again, the 2006 trade was NOT centered around Sebastian Telfair. Danny Ainge made that deal because he was not infatuated with anybody at the top of the draft and he wanted some financial flexibility to work with in order to make something big happen in the future. Telfair was a throw-in, someone worth taking a flyer on (especially since we didn't have Rondo at the time and we needed a point guard). The trade wasn't "#7 for Telfair" as people think. It was more like "I'm not impressed with many players here, so why add another young player that doesn't fill a need? Let's deal the pick and shave 2 years off of Raef LaFrentz's salary, and make something happen for Paul."</div>

There's more spinning going on here than at Bally's Total Fitness on January 2nd.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Dec 21 2007, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Dec 21 2007, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why don't you think Al Jefferson is a franchise player? He isn't an absolute freak such as LeBron or Dwight, but Big Al is one of the best young players in this league and one of the most unique talents in the game. He is certainly somebody you can build around, and I do believe he should be considered a franchise player.

Still... I do not believe for one second that people even understand what Al Jefferson is capable of. They see the numbers and say "good scorer, but he's padding stats on a young team." First of all, no that's not the case. Secondly, it's how how many points he puts up - it's HOW he puts them up. His low-post arsenal is wider than any player in the league not named Tim Duncan. That also is not a homer comment... I am not a delusional homer, that is the truth.</div>

That's a sunny view of him. I think he's more like a very rich man's Zach Randolph. A valuable piece on a good team or a star on a bad one, but he's not carrying anyone to a title.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Once again, the 2006 trade was NOT centered around Sebastian Telfair. Danny Ainge made that deal because he was not infatuated with anybody at the top of the draft and he wanted some financial flexibility to work with in order to make something big happen in the future. Telfair was a throw-in, someone worth taking a flyer on (especially since we didn't have Rondo at the time and we needed a point guard). The trade wasn't "#7 for Telfair" as people think. It was more like "I'm not impressed with many players here, so why add another young player that doesn't fill a need? Let's deal the pick and shave 2 years off of Raef LaFrentz's salary, and make something happen for Paul."</div>

There's more spinning going on here than at Bally's Total Fitness on January 2nd.
</div>

You can roll your eyes all you want, it is the truth. That trade was not centered around Telfair, it was a financial move.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Dec 21 2007, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Dec 21 2007, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>

Please oh please tell me the other trading chips that had value to other teams in the NBA.

Please oh please tell me the young talent that he collected and how it was better than the talent he passed over</div>

Delonte West had some value around the league. He's no star, but he is a very solid role player. Theo Ratliff's contract had a lot of value, and people are too afraid to look outside the box to realize that the trade in 2006 was NOT centered around Sebastian Telfair. Danny Ainge made that deal because he was not infatuated with anybody at the top of the draft and he wanted some financial flexibility to work with in order to make something big happen in the future. Telfair was a throw-in, someone worth taking a flyer on (especially since we didn't have Rondo at the time and we needed a point guard).

Gerald Green's potential factor had a lot of value around the league. He has been a disappointment this year, but he certainly was highly thought of around the league and is a guy we could have put in a package last year to bring in a real player. I'm glad that didn't happen, or we'd be the Denver Nuggets without a real center like Camby.

Tony Allen did have value before he tore his ACL.

Players had some trade value, it wasn't all Al Jefferson and it wasn't "luck."
</div>

You are greatly overstating the value of West and Ratliff's deal. West is a nice bench player and the value of expiring contracts has dropped tremendously.

As far as the 2006 Draft, I've always understood the financial aspect that Ainge worked under in attempting to clear room for Pierce's extension. However, the fact that you are clinging onto the statement that Ainge wasn't infatuated with anybody he could have drafted at #7 completely contradicts any attempt to claim that he is a good talent evaluator. Additionally, Telfair wasn't a toss-in into the deal. That is an attempt to re-write history.

Green's potential is vastly overstated. Sure there are some dumb GM's that would have traded for him, but he wasn't nearly as highly thought of as you are attempting to portray it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Dec 21 2007, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Dec 21 2007, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>

There's more spinning going on here than at Bally's Total Fitness on January 2nd. </div>

You can roll your eyes all you want, it is the truth. That trade was not centered around Telfair, it was a financial move.
</div>

It was a cop out. If he is some kind of genius talent evaluator, how come he couldn't find a talent at #7 worth paying? They were there.

 

cpaw, I may not have worded that correctly. It wasn't as though Ainge didn't like anybody at the 7-spot, but rather that we didn't need anybody there. If Danny's plan was to go with a full youth movement, yes, it would have been a no-brainer to add Brandon Roy or Rudy Gay to the puzzle... but that wasn't the plan. The plan was to build around Paul Pierce and cash in the young talent for some serious help. Without Ratliff's contract, the Celtics don't get Kevin Garnett. Minnesota wouldn't have done this deal if it were Raef LaFrentz's deal being sent their way, which has 2 more years on it than Ratliff's. Danny made that move for flexibility. He knew that packaging an $11 million expiring deal with young talent and draft picks could get him somewhere. I'm not saying he planned or counted on Garnett, because that would be impossible, but it all worked out.

And I don't think Green's potential is overstated. Looking back on it now, yeah it looks silly. But his value in his first 2 seasons was pretty high.

Also, Delonte is a nice bench player... but you asked who had some value. Delonte drew some interest around the league.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Dec 21 2007, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Causeway @ Dec 21 2007, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kevin McHale is part of the Sonics organization? Kevin McHale helped the Celtics decide who to trade and who to draft over the years? Kevin McHale helped Ainge acquire the young players necessary for all this to happen? That's news to me.

And if you look at the Wolves - I actually think they are in pretty good shape for the future.</div>

So basically, you are giving Ainge credit for the one year they sucked bad enough to draft Al Jefferson? Great job, then.

And the Wolves are possibly the most colossal NBA failure of all time. Who cares if they are a playoff team in 2010? The damage has already been done.
</div>

Actually they didn't suck, they were just bad and Al fell into their laps.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Dec 21 2007, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Dec 21 2007, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So basically, you are giving Ainge credit for the one year they sucked bad enough to draft Al Jefferson? Great job, then.</div>

What's that supposed to mean? You're talking as though we sucked bad enough that we were awarded one of the top picks and were guaranteed a sure-fire star. Al Jefferson was the 15th pick in the draft and was highly doubted by many people. Some people thought it was a terrible pick and that Big Al was going to be a bust... a lot of people. So, you're comment here makes no sense.

Gerald Green at 18 was phenomenal as well. Has he panned out? No, but based on his value at the time, that was an absolute steal. Ryan Gomes at 50? How about Tony Allen at 25? Before that torn ACL, TA was playing serious ball and showing that he was a real steal in the draft. Then you've got Rajon Rondo at 21... he had Rondo rated as one of the top players in the draft. He saw that one coming as well.

Danny Ainge is one of the better scouts out there. Question some of the moves he has made in the past, but not his ability to evaluate talent. Saying that everything that has happened is "luck" is a complete joke.
</div>

Personally, I think Jefferson @15, Green @18 and especially Ryan Gomes @50 were no-brainers. Jefferson was supposed to be a top 10 pick, Green a top 3, Gomes a top 30.

Perkins, Allen and West were good picks, but they weren't phenomenal.

Brandon Hunter, Justin Reed and Powe were good picks at where they were taken.

Rondo was one hell of a pick, and Davis has shown a lot of positives, too.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Dec 21 2007, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Dec 21 2007, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why don't you think Al Jefferson is a franchise player? He isn't an absolute freak such as LeBron or Dwight, but Big Al is one of the best young players in this league and one of the most unique talents in the game. He is certainly somebody you can build around, and I do believe he should be considered a franchise player.

Still... I do not believe for one second that people even understand what Al Jefferson is capable of. They see the numbers and say "good scorer, but he's padding stats on a young team." First of all, no that's not the case. Secondly, it's how how many points he puts up - it's HOW he puts them up. His low-post arsenal is wider than any player in the league not named Tim Duncan. That also is not a homer comment... I am not a delusional homer, that is the truth.</div>

That's a sunny view of him. I think he's more like a very rich man's Zach Randolph. A valuable piece on a good team or a star on a bad one, but he's not carrying anyone to a title.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Once again, the 2006 trade was NOT centered around Sebastian Telfair. Danny Ainge made that deal because he was not infatuated with anybody at the top of the draft and he wanted some financial flexibility to work with in order to make something big happen in the future. Telfair was a throw-in, someone worth taking a flyer on (especially since we didn't have Rondo at the time and we needed a point guard). The trade wasn't "#7 for Telfair" as people think. It was more like "I'm not impressed with many players here, so why add another young player that doesn't fill a need? Let's deal the pick and shave 2 years off of Raef LaFrentz's salary, and make something happen for Paul."</div>

There's more spinning going on here than at Bally's Total Fitness on January 2nd.
</div>

I do think Al Jefferson is one hell of a player, but I don't believe he has the ability to carry a team.

He's a freak as far as offensive moves are concenred, kid has it all. In his last season as a Celtic, he even developed a nice little jump shot. The guy is very hard to guard! On the other hand, he's not very hard to play against, especially with faster big men.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Dec 21 2007, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>cpaw, I may not have worded that correctly. It wasn't as though Ainge didn't like anybody at the 7-spot, but rather that we didn't need anybody there. If Danny's plan was to go with a full youth movement, yes, it would have been a no-brainer to add Brandon Roy or Rudy Gay to the puzzle... but that wasn't the plan. The plan was to build around Paul Pierce and cash in the young talent for some serious help. Without Ratliff's contract, the Celtics don't get Kevin Garnett. Minnesota wouldn't have done this deal if it were Raef LaFrentz's deal being sent their way, which has 2 more years on it than Ratliff's. Danny made that move for flexibility. He knew that packaging an $11 million expiring deal with young talent and draft picks could get him somewhere. I'm not saying he planned or counted on Garnett, because that would be impossible, but it all worked out.

And I don't think Green's potential is overstated. Looking back on it now, yeah it looks silly. But his value in his first 2 seasons was pretty high.

Also, Delonte is a nice bench player... but you asked who had some value. Delonte drew some interest around the league.</div>

I wouldn't say that was always the plan. This is where I also disagree with Gorman. Danny didn't have one plan. He was ready to deal Paul Pierce for Chris Paul, while also going after Barron Davis and getting Antoine Walker for a playoff push.

I don't see it as a "one way street," all of Danny's seasons here.