http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/col...AllStars-080108 <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Backup guard No. 1: Jose Calderon, Raptors This is probably going to shock some people, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Calderon, right now, is the third-best guard in the East. Go ahead and laugh. Get it out of your system. Done? Good. Now let's look at the numbers. Calderon ranks fourth among Eastern Conference guards in PER; he's a millimeter behind T.J. Ford, who is out indefinitely, and of course trails Wade and Billups. But he's way ahead of the others. Vince Carter, Richard Hamilton and Michael Redd are eating his dust, and no other point guard in the East rates in the top 50 in PER. (If you're looking for Jason Kidd, by the way, there's more on him below.)</div> I think Calderon is doing a great job, especially since TJ Ford went down. But we're putting Calderon in over Kidd based purely on numbers? That's insanity. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Right now Jason Kidd leads the fan voting at guard along with Wade, and the only guy close enough to have a reasonable chance of surpassing him is Ray Allen. While both are generally perceived as big-time stars, each has seen his numbers take a big hit this season. Kidd has produced so many triple-doubles that a lot of people mistakenly think he's playing as well as ever, but this just isn't true. The dude won't shoot the ball anymore and rarely makes the ones he takes. He's at 36.5 percent from the floor and has lost more than two points off his 40-minute scoring average. At the same time, he's seen a massive spike in his turnover ratio, forking it over on 14.3 percent of his possessions. Folks, that's plain terrible. Among point guards who have played at least 500 minutes, only two have a worse turnover ratio than Kidd. Scroll down to the bottom of this page to see what I mean -- it's a bunch of bad point guards and Jason Kidd. Weird, huh? That's why despite his brilliance in the rebound and assist categories his PER is 16.91, well down from his standard of each of the past four seasons and well short of what's typically expected from an All-Star. Look at the player instead of The Legend, people -- he's still good, but he's not one of the 12 best players in the East anymore.</div> So because he doesn't shoot anymore and his shooting percentage is down he doesn't deserve an all-star spot even though he's putting up 11, 8.8, and 10.7? Really? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>So that leaves Jamison, Redd, Carter and Jefferson -- the four remaining East players with a PER in the top 50 who average at least 30 minutes per game. Of the four, Jefferson can't quite hang with this crowd -- even with a PER that's just a whisker short of his career best, he's more than a point shy of the others.</div> What? He's been hanging with everyone in every crowd all-season. This guy takes his biases to a whole different level.
Still more proof that Hollinger's baby, PER, is utter garbage. Give me actual production over supposition and extrapolation any day.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 8 2008, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Still more proof that Hollinger's baby, PER, is utter garbage. Give me actual production over supposition and extrapolation any day.</div> PER isn't garbage. However, the bald stat freak insists on developing new applications for it since he created it. Imagine if you will that you developed a new type of widget that could do the job of three other distinct widgets. The initial sales of your widget do well, but then they start to drop because people don't need to purchase as many now that they have replaced their old widgets. So you decide to start marketing your widget as being able to the do the job of not only the 3 widgets you designed it for but 10 other widgets that are on the market. That in essence is what Hollinger is trying to do. He has a pulpit and he is not only going to preach the gospel of PER but he is going to sell it like a snake oil salesman as a wondercure for everything. I'm now sick at not only defending Hollinger but the analogies I just made.
Yet he also finds a way to insult the Nets while looking to sell his...."widget." That is what annoys most people.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kidd @ Jan 8 2008, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yet he also finds a way to insult the Nets while looking to sell his...."widget." That is what annoys most people.</div> i doubt he does it purposely
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BasX @ Jan 8 2008, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kidd @ Jan 8 2008, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yet he also finds a way to insult the Nets while looking to sell his...."widget." That is what annoys most people.</div> i doubt he does it purposely </div> Believe it or not, but he's always been a Nets hater. He seems to dog us anytime he has the chance -- offseason, regular season, playoffs etc.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 8 2008, 06:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 8 2008, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Still more proof that Hollinger's baby, PER, is utter garbage. Give me actual production over supposition and extrapolation any day.</div> PER isn't garbage. However, the bald stat freak insists on developing new applications for it since he created it. Imagine if you will that you developed a new type of widget that could do the job of three other distinct widgets. The initial sales of your widget do well, but then they start to drop because people don't need to purchase as many now that they have replaced their old widgets. So you decide to start marketing your widget as being able to the do the job of not only the 3 widgets you designed it for but 10 other widgets that are on the market. That in essence is what Hollinger is trying to do. He has a pulpit and he is not only going to preach the gospel of PER but he is going to sell it like a snake oil salesman as a wondercure for everything. I'm now sick at not only defending Hollinger but the analogies I just made. </div> I see your point, but remain unconvinced that it ever actually did the work of any combination of widgets. My analogy would be replacing statistical evidence of occurrences with an unholy combination of facts and projections, then claiming it to be superior - and all-applicable. Snake oil salesman is pretty accurate.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kidd @ Jan 8 2008, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BasX @ Jan 8 2008, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kidd @ Jan 8 2008, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yet he also finds a way to insult the Nets while looking to sell his...."widget." That is what annoys most people.</div> i doubt he does it purposely </div> Believe it or not, but he's always been a Nets hater. He seems to dog us anytime he has the chance -- offseason, regular season, playoffs etc. </div> hmmm, atleast hes nice to the raptors, unlike alot of our fans ahaha, mood changes deluxe
So, what Hollinger is trying to say is that a very good BACKUP point guard is better than the finals MVP of two years ago? Uhhhhh, ......., yup still confused.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kidd @ Jan 8 2008, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BasX @ Jan 8 2008, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kidd @ Jan 8 2008, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yet he also finds a way to insult the Nets while looking to sell his...."widget." That is what annoys most people.</div> i doubt he does it purposely </div> Believe it or not, but he's always been a Nets hater. He seems to dog us anytime he has the chance -- offseason, regular season, playoffs etc. </div> He isn't a hater, rather he isn't a Nets believer. As big of a fool as I find Hollinger to be, I'm convinced he hates everyone equally. Damn, that is the second time I've defended Hollinger in this thread
Hollinger makes a decent point about Kidd's turnover rate. And his shooting has been pretty horrid this year... It makes sense that Kidd would underrate Kidd though - PER doesn't tend to pick-up defense, and that's an area where Kidd's influence is often misunderstood. Jefferson also got screwed because of his good defense - he's clearly a better defender than Jamison, Redd or Carter.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BasX @ Jan 8 2008, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jose can't play D Kidd's better all around, except for jump shot</div> let me add this actually Jason is not better all around Calderon 51% shooting Kidd 37% shooting 6.3:1 assist to turnover ratio for Calderon 2.8:1 for Kidd
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 8 2008, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hollinger makes a decent point about Kidd's turnover rate. And his shooting has been pretty horrid this year... It makes sense that Kidd would underrate Kidd though - PER doesn't tend to pick-up defense, and that's an area where Kidd's influence is often misunderstood. Jefferson also got screwed because of his good defense - he's clearly a better defender than Jamison, Redd or Carter.</div> exactly, i posted stats above this to prove your first point
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BasX @ Jan 8 2008, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BasX @ Jan 8 2008, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jose can't play D Kidd's better all around, except for jump shot</div> let me add this actually Jason is not better all around Calderon 51% shooting Kidd 37% shooting 6.3:1 assist to turnover ratio for Calderon 2.8:1 for Kidd </div> One question. You have one year to win, and salary and the future don't matter at all. Who do you take, Calderon or Kidd?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MyNetsForLife @ Jan 8 2008, 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BasX @ Jan 8 2008, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BasX @ Jan 8 2008, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jose can't play D Kidd's better all around, except for jump shot</div> let me add this actually Jason is not better all around Calderon 51% shooting Kidd 37% shooting 6.3:1 assist to turnover ratio for Calderon 2.8:1 for Kidd </div> One question. You have one year to win, and salary and the future don't matter at all. Who do you take, Calderon or Kidd? </div> Kidd obviously, but you better have other guys on the team who protect the ball well with Kidd. Kidd's an amazing player just low shooting % and turnovers hurt
