<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Republican @ Jan 12 2008, 09:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kidd..Hands down Parker is not even the 3rd best PG in the West </div> Yeah, he's 4th at most...probably 5th.
I posted about this in a thread on the Hornets board.. http://sportstwo.com/forums/rank-Chris-Paul-NBA-t108946.html I basically don't see how Kidd can rank in the top 5 when his team is struggling to stay at .500 in the east. The same conference where the Wizards lost their best player and are above .500 ;[ He still manages to fill a stat sheet but he has a solid supporting cast and there is NO WAY his team can possibly win the title this year. Kidd was an elite PG back in the K-mart days and back to back finals appearances but how he manages to get so much love today is beyond me. Him having gaudy rebound stats doesn't make up for the fact that he still can't shoot and he can't make his team win anymore.
"but triple doubles are cool and helps us forget our team isn't going anywhere." You know what's impressive? Winning.
Triple-doubles are not very impressive to me. Assists have zero practical value and contribute very little to the overall team offense. The correlation between assists and passing ability is quite low.
Scoring: Nash Shooting: Billups Passing: Kidd Defense: Kidd Rebounding: Kidd Clutch: Baron Davis Drive: Parker/Davis
You know what else is pretty impressive? Literacy. We're talking about the best point guard in the league. That would be an individual, whomever that may be.
Where exactly are you getting that Kidd is a good defender? You realize the bulk of his Defensive 1st team votes come from incumbent status and his defensive rebound numbers? He hasn't been a lockdown defender for years now, and watching him play against any of the true top PG's in the league shows that VERY EASILY. Chris Paul leads the league in steals at nearly 3 per game, if anyone deserves being rated the best defensive PG it's probably him.. and easily the best all-around PG statistically at this point in the season. You talk about Kidd being the best passing PG in the league.. You realize he has lost the ability to run an uptempo offense, right? His nets are 28th in the league in scoring. That's 3rd from last. They also have a -4.2 point differential. So he averages 10 assists a game but his team sits at the bottom of the league with the Clippers and Minnesota for offensive output. Congrats there "best pg in the league" None of the other PG's mentioned can boast that, that's for sure.... lol
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You talk about Kidd being the best passing PG in the league.. You realize he has lost the ability to run an uptempo offense, right? His nets are 28th in the league in scoring. That's 3rd from last. They also have a -4.2 point differential.</div> The current Nets team is different from the one in the Finals era. Kidd hasn't lose the ability to run an uptempo offense; the Nets simply aren't a fastbreak team anymore. Other than Jefferson, none of the players really look out to run. They much rather prefer to settle into a halfcourt offense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kidd @ Jan 14 2008, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You talk about Kidd being the best passing PG in the league.. You realize he has lost the ability to run an uptempo offense, right? His nets are 28th in the league in scoring. That's 3rd from last. They also have a -4.2 point differential.</div> The current Nets team is different from the one in the Finals era. Kidd hasn't lose the ability to run an uptempo offense; the Nets simply aren't a fastbreak team anymore. Other than Jefferson, none of the players really look out to run. They much rather prefer to settle into a halfcourt offense. </div> I'm not going to argue that, because you're probably right. However my point stands about him not being as good of a facilitator as his raw stats would suggest. What good is 10 assists per game after all, if it doesn't result in big offensive output? His defense certainly doesnt make up for the fact that he is not a scorer either. Kidd has 2 very good wing players and a plethora of young talent that is more than able to score if given the opportunity, but his team can't even make it's mark in an extremely weak conference. That falls on him :/
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>What good is 10 assists per game after all, if it doesn't result in big offensive output? His defense certainly doesnt make up for the fact that he is not a scorer either. Kidd has 2 very good wing players and a plethora of young talent that is more than able to score if given the opportunity, but his team can't even make it's mark in an extremely weak conference. That falls on him :/</div> The fact that he still manages to get 10 asts is amazing because the Nets are pretty dismal offensive team. Jefferson and Carter are pretty good halfcourt players, but when they are struggling to make shots; it's Kidd who sets them up for easier jumpers and layups. However, I can say that they are less dependent on him because they can score on their own, but Kidd does tend to get them into a flow of things early on or late in the game. That's important enough already. Not to mention Jefferson wouldn't be getting a lot less fastbreak points if it wasn't for Kidd's outlet passes. And as far as the young talent, I have to fully disagree with you. Sean Williams is really dependent on Kidd, because that's where a chunk of his points come from. Who do you think sets him up for alleyoops and open dunks? Then you have Wright? Absolutely terrible when it comes to scoring. Set him up for an open shot, and he'll likely brick it. Nachbar? VERY streaky to the point where you don't when he's going to show up. Collins? Allen? Magloire? I'm sure I don't have to mention those guys. My point is that the Nets don't fully utilize Kidd's strengths. The main factors being, two winger players who prefer to create their own offense majority of the time, and role players who struggle to make an open shot. Looking away from stats though, you really have to look at what Kidd brings to the game everywhere. He sets the tempo, gets everybody fired up, and none of that is measured in stats.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tradebark @ Jan 14 2008, 10:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kidd @ Jan 14 2008, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You talk about Kidd being the best passing PG in the league.. You realize he has lost the ability to run an uptempo offense, right? His nets are 28th in the league in scoring. That's 3rd from last. They also have a -4.2 point differential.</div> The current Nets team is different from the one in the Finals era. Kidd hasn't lose the ability to run an uptempo offense; the Nets simply aren't a fastbreak team anymore. Other than Jefferson, none of the players really look out to run. They much rather prefer to settle into a halfcourt offense. </div> I'm not going to argue that, because you're probably right. However my point stands about him not being as good of a facilitator as his raw stats would suggest. What good is 10 assists per game after all, if it doesn't result in big offensive output? His defense certainly doesnt make up for the fact that he is not a scorer either. Kidd has 2 very good wing players and a plethora of young talent that is more than able to score if given the opportunity, but his team can't even make it's mark in an extremely weak conference. That falls on him :/ </div> I just want to clear something up: You think the dismal offense is Kidd's fault? That if we were to replace him with, say, Baron Davis, the Nets would be contenders in the East?
The defensive side I don't like about Chris Paul is that he can be bullied. Guys like Baron Davis use size against him which counters against his speed. Still, he's one of the better defensive point gaurds in the league.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MyNetsForLife @ Jan 14 2008, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I just want to clear something up: You think the dismal offense is Kidd's fault? That if we were to replace him with, say, Baron Davis, the Nets would be contenders in the East?</div> Answer to the 2nd question is yes. They'd certainly be a lot better team. It depends on the makeup of the team. The Nets have a tough go of it with so many lineup slots used by players who don't contribute much on offense. Kidd's passing and other PG skills would be better suited to a team with 4 other players on the court who can score.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tradebark @ Jan 14 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Where exactly are you getting that Kidd is a good defender? You realize the bulk of his Defensive 1st team votes come from incumbent status and his defensive rebound numbers? He hasn't been a lockdown defender for years now, and watching him play against any of the true top PG's in the league shows that VERY EASILY. Chris Paul leads the league in steals at nearly 3 per game, if anyone deserves being rated the best defensive PG it's probably him.. and easily the best all-around PG statistically at this point in the season. You talk about Kidd being the best passing PG in the league.. You realize he has lost the ability to run an uptempo offense, right? His nets are 28th in the league in scoring. That's 3rd from last. They also have a -4.2 point differential. So he averages 10 assists a game but his team sits at the bottom of the league with the Clippers and Minnesota for offensive output. Congrats there "best pg in the league" None of the other PG's mentioned can boast that, that's for sure.... lol</div> Aright, this is bothering me. You have to actually consistently watch the Nets play to see how good Kidd is on offense, not just the stats. Stats don't work well in this arguement of defense, sorry. Lemme start out by asking: Who have the Nets had to guard the paint since Kenyon Martin left? Hm...Jason Collins, Nenad Krstic, Clifford Robinson, Mikki Moore, Lamond Murray, Jacque Vaughn, young inexperienced players, yadda yadda. Now, how does that affect Kidd's defense? Well, are any of those players intimidating defenders or shotblockers? Are any of those players up there with the likes of Amare, Marion, Duncan, Biedrins, Chandler, Ben Wallace or Rasheed Wallace on the defensive end, with shotblocking? No sir. This means Kidd must play help defense, collapse, giving many players wide open shots, and easy baskets. So stats provide nothing in this arguement. They lie, in a way. It's more about the other players he's surrounded with. Give him a good, experienced shotblocker, and who knows what could happen. If you've watched a game this season with Kidd, and have had the privilege of being able to see him when he's been given the assignment of holding down the other team's wing player - his defense looks good as ever, even late in the game. I can't recall which game, possibly the Boston game, guarding Pierce - and wow, did he hold him down. When RJ got switched on PP, he'd score. When Kidd was on him, he'd hold his ground, and play solid defense. Well, I guess all I could tell you is to really watch Kidd the next time the Nets are on TV. Really, he's not that bad of a defender. And I'm not sure why you're comparing him to Paul, he's not that much better of a defender than Kidd. In fact, Paul has trouble against bigger PGs, like Kidd.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Jan 14 2008, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You know what else is pretty impressive? Literacy. We're talking about the best point guard in the league. That would be an individual, whomever that may be.</div> You seem to be a bit hostile. The thread prominently included a discussion with regard to triple-doubles, which are generally related to assists and I stated that assists have little practical value, thus, triple-doubles are not the best statistical measure. It is quite related to the topic. In addition, I like to view myself as literate. At least I hope I am.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182 @ Jan 15 2008, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tradebark @ Jan 14 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Where exactly are you getting that Kidd is a good defender? You realize the bulk of his Defensive 1st team votes come from incumbent status and his defensive rebound numbers? He hasn't been a lockdown defender for years now, and watching him play against any of the true top PG's in the league shows that VERY EASILY. Chris Paul leads the league in steals at nearly 3 per game, if anyone deserves being rated the best defensive PG it's probably him.. and easily the best all-around PG statistically at this point in the season. You talk about Kidd being the best passing PG in the league.. You realize he has lost the ability to run an uptempo offense, right? His nets are 28th in the league in scoring. That's 3rd from last. They also have a -4.2 point differential. So he averages 10 assists a game but his team sits at the bottom of the league with the Clippers and Minnesota for offensive output. Congrats there "best pg in the league" None of the other PG's mentioned can boast that, that's for sure.... lol</div> Aright, this is bothering me. You have to actually consistently watch the Nets play to see how good Kidd is on offense, not just the stats. Stats don't work well in this arguement of defense, sorry. Lemme start out by asking: Who have the Nets had to guard the paint since Kenyon Martin left? Hm...Jason Collins, Nenad Krstic, Clifford Robinson, Mikki Moore, Lamond Murray, Jacque Vaughn, young inexperienced players, yadda yadda. Now, how does that affect Kidd's defense? Well, are any of those players intimidating defenders or shotblockers? Are any of those players up there with the likes of Amare, Marion, Duncan, Biedrins, Chandler, Ben Wallace or Rasheed Wallace on the defensive end, with shotblocking? No sir. This means Kidd must play help defense, collapse, giving many players wide open shots, and easy baskets. So stats provide nothing in this arguement. They lie, in a way. It's more about the other players he's surrounded with. Give him a good, experienced shotblocker, and who knows what could happen. If you've watched a game this season with Kidd, and have had the privilege of being able to see him when he's been given the assignment of holding down the other team's wing player - his defense looks good as ever, even late in the game. I can't recall which game, possibly the Boston game, guarding Pierce - and wow, did he hold him down. When RJ got switched on PP, he'd score. When Kidd was on him, he'd hold his ground, and play solid defense. Well, I guess all I could tell you is to really watch Kidd the next time the Nets are on TV. Really, he's not that bad of a defender. And I'm not sure why you're comparing him to Paul, he's not that much better of a defender than Kidd. In fact, Paul has trouble against bigger PGs, like Kidd. </div> Including Amare as an intimidating defender or shotblocker is kind of funny. Amare has never been known as a tough defender, he usually spends his energy on the offensive end, and then kind of cruises on the defense. He doesn't have a defensive presence of a big center, as he is more of a PF playing the center position, just getting away with it because the mismatch he creates on the offensive end during a running game. I'm surprized Amare is averaging 2.2 bpg this year, but anyway last year he averaged 1.3 bpg in 33 mpg, the year before Amare only played 3 games, the year before Amare averaged 1.6 bpg in 36 mpg. Amare also seems to get into foul trouble. I'd probably say that Jason Collins during some of those previous years had a greater defensive impact, expending his energy on the defensive end than what Amare did. As well, Mentioning Marion is strange, because although he has played a lot of PF, he is really a SF and is a better perimeter defender than a downlow defender. When he played a real PF in the playoffs against Tim Duncan he struggled a lot, and clearly doesn't have anywhere near the shotblocking or "intimidating defense" that an anchor like Tim Duncan, Dikembe, etc. brings. I would agree that he is a good perimeter defender. Al Harrington is a pretty terrible shotblocker and interior defender, who played a bunch of C for GS. Other than that, yes Tim Duncan and Rasho, Nazr/Big Ben and Rasheed, West/Chandler, and Biedrins (since last year when he got minutes) are better than J-Collins, Krstic, and Mikki on the shotblocking aspect.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kidd has 2 very good wing players and a plethora of young talent that is more than able to score if given the opportunity, but his team can't even make it's mark in an extremely weak conference. That falls on him :/</div> Can you name these people? A plethora should equal at least three, I challenge you to name one.
