<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Premier @ Jan 14 2008, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Triple-doubles are not very impressive to me. Assists have zero practical value and contribute very little to the overall team offense. The correlation between assists and passing ability is quite low.</div> That's fine, but the player in question is the best passer I've ever seen.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (speeds @ Jan 15 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Billups and Hinrich are the best defensive point guards in the league.</div> Hinrich has dropped off a bit. Billups, I'll agree with.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jan 15 2008, 03:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182 @ Jan 15 2008, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tradebark @ Jan 14 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Where exactly are you getting that Kidd is a good defender? You realize the bulk of his Defensive 1st team votes come from incumbent status and his defensive rebound numbers? He hasn't been a lockdown defender for years now, and watching him play against any of the true top PG's in the league shows that VERY EASILY. Chris Paul leads the league in steals at nearly 3 per game, if anyone deserves being rated the best defensive PG it's probably him.. and easily the best all-around PG statistically at this point in the season. You talk about Kidd being the best passing PG in the league.. You realize he has lost the ability to run an uptempo offense, right? His nets are 28th in the league in scoring. That's 3rd from last. They also have a -4.2 point differential. So he averages 10 assists a game but his team sits at the bottom of the league with the Clippers and Minnesota for offensive output. Congrats there "best pg in the league" None of the other PG's mentioned can boast that, that's for sure.... lol</div> Aright, this is bothering me. You have to actually consistently watch the Nets play to see how good Kidd is on offense, not just the stats. Stats don't work well in this arguement of defense, sorry. Lemme start out by asking: Who have the Nets had to guard the paint since Kenyon Martin left? Hm...Jason Collins, Nenad Krstic, Clifford Robinson, Mikki Moore, Lamond Murray, Jacque Vaughn, young inexperienced players, yadda yadda. Now, how does that affect Kidd's defense? Well, are any of those players intimidating defenders or shotblockers? Are any of those players up there with the likes of Amare, Marion, Duncan, Biedrins, Chandler, Ben Wallace or Rasheed Wallace on the defensive end, with shotblocking? No sir. This means Kidd must play help defense, collapse, giving many players wide open shots, and easy baskets. So stats provide nothing in this arguement. They lie, in a way. It's more about the other players he's surrounded with. Give him a good, experienced shotblocker, and who knows what could happen. If you've watched a game this season with Kidd, and have had the privilege of being able to see him when he's been given the assignment of holding down the other team's wing player - his defense looks good as ever, even late in the game. I can't recall which game, possibly the Boston game, guarding Pierce - and wow, did he hold him down. When RJ got switched on PP, he'd score. When Kidd was on him, he'd hold his ground, and play solid defense. Well, I guess all I could tell you is to really watch Kidd the next time the Nets are on TV. Really, he's not that bad of a defender. And I'm not sure why you're comparing him to Paul, he's not that much better of a defender than Kidd. In fact, Paul has trouble against bigger PGs, like Kidd. </div> Including Amare as an intimidating defender or shotblocker is kind of funny. Amare has never been known as a tough defender, he usually spends his energy on the offensive end, and then kind of cruises on the defense. He doesn't have a defensive presence of a big center, as he is more of a PF playing the center position, just getting away with it because the mismatch he creates on the offensive end during a running game. I'm surprized Amare is averaging 2.2 bpg this year, but anyway last year he averaged 1.3 bpg in 33 mpg, the year before Amare only played 3 games, the year before Amare averaged 1.6 bpg in 36 mpg. Amare also seems to get into foul trouble. I'd probably say that Jason Collins during some of those previous years had a greater defensive impact, expending his energy on the defensive end than what Amare did. As well, Mentioning Marion is strange, because although he has played a lot of PF, he is really a SF and is a better perimeter defender than a downlow defender. When he played a real PF in the playoffs against Tim Duncan he struggled a lot, and clearly doesn't have anywhere near the shotblocking or "intimidating defense" that an anchor like Tim Duncan, Dikembe, etc. brings. I would agree that he is a good perimeter defender. Al Harrington is a pretty terrible shotblocker and interior defender, who played a bunch of C for GS. Other than that, yes Tim Duncan and Rasho, Nazr/Big Ben and Rasheed, West/Chandler, and Biedrins (since last year when he got minutes) are better than J-Collins, Krstic, and Mikki on the shotblocking aspect. </div> Amare and Shawn Marion are pretty good and able shotblockers, but that team defense isn't all that great, and everyone knows Nash's defense sucks, so that was pretty much a moot point on my part. Same goes for Golden State, even tho Baron Davis is a good defender anyways.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 15 2008, 11:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Premier @ Jan 14 2008, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Triple-doubles are not very impressive to me. Assists have zero practical value and contribute very little to the overall team offense. The correlation between assists and passing ability is quite low.</div> That's fine, but the player in question is the best passer I've ever seen. </div> No doubt. However guys like Andre Miller and Brevin Knight are far worse passers than the assists column indicates.
The nets have Vince, RJ, Boone, and Nachbar.. Not the powerhouse scorers that Nash has certainly, but certainly enough that they should be able to hold their own in the East. I remind you again that the Wizards are without Arenas and are being led by two players that many a Nets fan would argue are not as good as VC, Kidd, or even Jefferson.. A team like the Hawks which is full of extreme youth and inexperience is holding a similar record on the season. While you can excuse the fact that the Nets are underachieving in spite of Kidd's supposed lack of help, how does that also qualify him as one of the best in the league at his position? People mention that he's incredibly good at "getting people into the offense" and "getting the team fired up;" but neither translate into wins, so what value does that really have? The Nets are underachieving for the talent they have. I don't see how this can possibly be argued. That said, I fail to see how the facilitator of an underachieving team can be the best facilitator in the league.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182 @ Jan 15 2008, 01:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jan 15 2008, 03:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182 @ Jan 15 2008, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tradebark @ Jan 14 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Where exactly are you getting that Kidd is a good defender? You realize the bulk of his Defensive 1st team votes come from incumbent status and his defensive rebound numbers? He hasn't been a lockdown defender for years now, and watching him play against any of the true top PG's in the league shows that VERY EASILY. Chris Paul leads the league in steals at nearly 3 per game, if anyone deserves being rated the best defensive PG it's probably him.. and easily the best all-around PG statistically at this point in the season. You talk about Kidd being the best passing PG in the league.. You realize he has lost the ability to run an uptempo offense, right? His nets are 28th in the league in scoring. That's 3rd from last. They also have a -4.2 point differential. So he averages 10 assists a game but his team sits at the bottom of the league with the Clippers and Minnesota for offensive output. Congrats there "best pg in the league" None of the other PG's mentioned can boast that, that's for sure.... lol</div> Aright, this is bothering me. You have to actually consistently watch the Nets play to see how good Kidd is on offense, not just the stats. Stats don't work well in this arguement of defense, sorry. Lemme start out by asking: Who have the Nets had to guard the paint since Kenyon Martin left? Hm...Jason Collins, Nenad Krstic, Clifford Robinson, Mikki Moore, Lamond Murray, Jacque Vaughn, young inexperienced players, yadda yadda. Now, how does that affect Kidd's defense? Well, are any of those players intimidating defenders or shotblockers? Are any of those players up there with the likes of Amare, Marion, Duncan, Biedrins, Chandler, Ben Wallace or Rasheed Wallace on the defensive end, with shotblocking? No sir. This means Kidd must play help defense, collapse, giving many players wide open shots, and easy baskets. So stats provide nothing in this arguement. They lie, in a way. It's more about the other players he's surrounded with. Give him a good, experienced shotblocker, and who knows what could happen. If you've watched a game this season with Kidd, and have had the privilege of being able to see him when he's been given the assignment of holding down the other team's wing player - his defense looks good as ever, even late in the game. I can't recall which game, possibly the Boston game, guarding Pierce - and wow, did he hold him down. When RJ got switched on PP, he'd score. When Kidd was on him, he'd hold his ground, and play solid defense. Well, I guess all I could tell you is to really watch Kidd the next time the Nets are on TV. Really, he's not that bad of a defender. And I'm not sure why you're comparing him to Paul, he's not that much better of a defender than Kidd. In fact, Paul has trouble against bigger PGs, like Kidd. </div> Including Amare as an intimidating defender or shotblocker is kind of funny. Amare has never been known as a tough defender, he usually spends his energy on the offensive end, and then kind of cruises on the defense. He doesn't have a defensive presence of a big center, as he is more of a PF playing the center position, just getting away with it because the mismatch he creates on the offensive end during a running game. I'm surprized Amare is averaging 2.2 bpg this year, but anyway last year he averaged 1.3 bpg in 33 mpg, the year before Amare only played 3 games, the year before Amare averaged 1.6 bpg in 36 mpg. Amare also seems to get into foul trouble. I'd probably say that Jason Collins during some of those previous years had a greater defensive impact, expending his energy on the defensive end than what Amare did. As well, Mentioning Marion is strange, because although he has played a lot of PF, he is really a SF and is a better perimeter defender than a downlow defender. When he played a real PF in the playoffs against Tim Duncan he struggled a lot, and clearly doesn't have anywhere near the shotblocking or "intimidating defense" that an anchor like Tim Duncan, Dikembe, etc. brings. I would agree that he is a good perimeter defender. Al Harrington is a pretty terrible shotblocker and interior defender, who played a bunch of C for GS. Other than that, yes Tim Duncan and Rasho, Nazr/Big Ben and Rasheed, West/Chandler, and Biedrins (since last year when he got minutes) are better than J-Collins, Krstic, and Mikki on the shotblocking aspect. </div> Amare and Shawn Marion are pretty good and able shotblockers, but that team defense isn't all that great, and everyone knows Nash's defense sucks, so that was pretty much a moot point on my part. Same goes for Golden State, even tho Baron Davis is a good defender anyways. </div> Not to drift off topic, but Amare is a not a good or pretty good shotblocker. He'll play good defense 1 in 5 games the rest of the time he's a matador defender. The original question is a bit vague. Are we trying to debate who the best point guard is during the first 1/3 of the season or are we talking about the last couple of seasons? If it's the first 1/3 of the season I think Paul is playing the best right now slightly above Steve Nash.
