<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Republican @ Jan 23 2008, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Byron scott is prolly laughin' his balls off. </div> his team has the best record in the west and he's done a fabulous job. frank is a pasty white midget who everyone steps on
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SUPERB @ Jan 23 2008, 03:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Byron Scott being fired was one of the worst moves this team could have made. Thats Kidds fault!</div> I think in hindsight the worst move was 2-part. Firing Byron Scott after Eddie Jordan had left the season before for the Washington Wizards.
Frank obviously has a lot of pluses. He almost always diagrams good plays in timeouts for special situations (short shot clock, getting a struggling player a good look). He is extremely well prepared in terms of the opposing team and immediately recognizes what plays they are about to run (and calls out the same to his team). He usually makes good tactical halftime adjustments if an opposing team has been highly successful with a certain strategy (e.g., playing a lot of zone defense, pick and rolls with certain player combinations, etc.). He takes full responsibility for his own mistakes, takes losses deeply personally yet is irrepressible in his attitude that the team can and will improve next time out, is as hardworking as anyone in the game, and is very protective (to a fault) of his players. With the right kind of team, I think he would be a dynamite coach. He also has his areas of substantive weakness, most notably a stubborn adherence to ideas that sound good on paper but fail miserably in practice for one reason or other. This is very related to his often-poor management of both the playing time, self confidence, and egos of young players. It also seems related to the team's miserable excuse for a "motion" offense. The Nets are simply not getting the kinds of shots that a motion offense is ostensibly designed to provide. All too frequently they end up with nothing but long jumpers over active defenders that would have had a better chance of going in had the jumpers come off a simple curl screen catch-and-shoot. Last night, for all the defensive problems, the Nets' half court offense looked better than usual because Frank finally decided to do more pick and rolls with Vince and used less "motion". Overall I'm not sure how much of the Nets atrocious half court offense is due to a poor concept and how much is due to players simply not cutting hard or reading a screen correctly or not timing the movement of the ball with the movement away from the ball. Certainly some of it is due to the fact that the Nets just don't have any GOOD role playing shooters. But it looks pitiful, a whole lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. Even if we assume that the offense is far less Frank's fault than poor execution by his players, he is still not right for THIS team at THIS time. They like him, but they seem not to really respect him. Respect in a quasi-military, male-dominated, hierarchical society like professional team sports is always based in part on fear. At the very least it depends upon there being one alpha male in charge (be it player or coach) whose approval the others seek and whose reprisals or criticisms they fear. Frank can in no way inspire that kind of fear-based or paternalistic respect in these players. He never played at a serious level; is small in stature; is barely older than his oldest player and looks younger than half the team; is sensitive to his players' feelings and would never publicly embarrass them; and, by all accounts, is soft even in his private "castigations" of players. And he's white, which wouldn't matter much if the other factors were different but, added to them, unquestionably discounts his alpha status on a team and in a league that is dominated by black players from mostly poor, urban backgrounds. His shortcomings as a paternal/alpha male figure wouldn't be critical if there were anyone else on this team with the personality and the on-court credibility to fill the void. But there isn't. I concurred with Dumpy long ago that Jason Kidd is a terrible "leader". If he were a real leader, Vince Carter wouldn't have gone through numerous "funks" in his NJ tenure where he was content to blend into the woodwork and watch the game from the perimeter. The team wouldn't for the better part of 2 seasons have come out lethargic and weak-spirited for at least one quarter or one half of nearly every game. It seems abundantly clear to me now that the REAL leader of this team during its heyday was K-Mart. Sure Kidd was by far the best player, but the enforcer -- the alpha male -- was Martin. The closest thing this team has to that is Darrel Armstrong. It's no coincidence that the team has looked its most spirited and committed to winning in the games that he saw a lot of floor time. But at 39, he's just not going to be on court enough to assume that role full time or on a consistent basis. I don't think firing Frank would cure all this team's ills. But I do think that so long as Kidd or Carter remains the team's best/most important player, a different coach is needed.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Belarus @ Jan 23 2008, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>tonight during the game MJ said something like this referring to management "I don't care what you do, but if the team struggles like that, you better do something" Well, we're facing a dilemma: either trade the whole team or change the coach. History shows the latter is easier and more practical.</div> There's a general rule that's been proven true by experience that says when MJ's management sense tells him to do something, the best idea is normally the exact opposite. I mean, we're talking about a guy who was basically fired from being an owner. If he's teaching me how to shoot jumpers or play poker, that's one thing, but MJ's not a very good GM and his infamous lack of patience, which was a virtue as a player, is really his Achilles heel as an executive.
FOMW...wow. Just wow. Beautiful post. Post of the day right there. Really, that perfectly cleared up for me why this isn't the right team for Frank to coach. Not his fault, not the team's fault...it's just the way things are. Frank and this team do not go well together. And to back up your claim on Martin being the leader of the team, I agree 100%. Players on Denver, including AI, said that Martin was the biggest leader on that team. I believe AI said "As he goes, so do we" - something along the lines of that. We need a real team leader. Anyone got any ideas they wanna throw around as to who, player or coach, would fill that void as a vocal team leader?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 23 2008, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Belarus @ Jan 23 2008, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>tonight during the game MJ said something like this referring to management "I don't care what you do, but if the team struggles like that, you better do something" Well, we're facing a dilemma: either trade the whole team or change the coach. History shows the latter is easier and more practical.</div> There's a general rule that's been proven true by experience that says when MJ's management sense tells him to do something, the best idea is normally the exact opposite. I mean, we're talking about a guy who was basically fired from being an owner. If he's teaching me how to shoot jumpers or play poker, that's one thing, but MJ's not a very good GM and his infamous lack of patience, which was a virtue as a player, is really his Achilles heel as an executive. </div> I believe MJ= Mark Jackson, not Michael Jordan.
Anyone who thinks Byron Scott didn't deserve to be fired clearly doesn't remember anything about that team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 23 2008, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Belarus @ Jan 23 2008, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>tonight during the game MJ said something like this referring to management "I don't care what you do, but if the team struggles like that, you better do something" Well, we're facing a dilemma: either trade the whole team or change the coach. History shows the latter is easier and more practical.</div> There's a general rule that's been proven true by experience that says when MJ's management sense tells him to do something, the best idea is normally the exact opposite. I mean, we're talking about a guy who was basically fired from being an owner. If he's teaching me how to shoot jumpers or play poker, that's one thing, but MJ's not a very good GM and his infamous lack of patience, which was a virtue as a player, is really his Achilles heel as an executive. </div> I didn't see the game but i believe he was referring to the Mark Jackson "MJ" who does Nets tv commentating not Michael Jordan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Jan 23 2008, 02:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He also has his areas of substantive weakness, most notably a stubborn adherence to ideas that sound good on paper but fail miserable in practice for one reason or other. This is very related to his often-poor management of both the playing time, self confidence, and egos of young players. It also seems related to the team's miserable excuse for a "motion" offense. The Nets are simply not getting the kinds of shots that a motion offense is ostensibly designed to provide. All too frequently they end up with nothing but long jumpers over active defenders that would have had a better chance of going in had the jumpers come of a simple curl screen catch-and-shoot. Last night, for all the defensive problems, the Nets' half court offense looked better than usual because Frank finally decided to do more pick and rolls with Vince and used less "motion". Overall I'm not sure how much of the Nets atrocious half court offense is due to a poor concept and how much is due to players simply not cutting hard or reading a screen correctly or not timing the movement of the ball with the movement away from the ball. Certainly some of it is due to the fact that the Nets just don't have any GOOD role playing shooters. But it looks pitiful, a whole lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.</div> Good points. I chalk this up to Frank still being a relatively young coach. I'm studying physics in college, and it took me some time to realize that a background in physics is not a background in engineering. He knows how to diagram an effective offense in theory for his theoretical players (this explains his love of Collins, a player who's theoretical is closer to his actual than just about anyone) but understanding that rather than pressing the point of "the offense," he'd be better off trashing it all and just finding anything that works is clearly a concept he finds difficult. That lesson will only come with experience. On the other hand, I think he's improved DRASTICALLY in how he handles young players, and I think he's done a great job this year. His philosophy that if you work hard in practice, you'll eventually get a chance is about as fair as it gets, and it built a lot of much needed character in someone like Boone or Nachbar. I think Sean could use some time on the bench, if only to convince him to keep working hard at learning the fundamentals of defense. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Even if we assume that the offense is far less Frank's fault than poor execution by his players, he is still not right for THIS team at THIS time. They like him, but they seem not to really respect him. Respect in a quasi-military, male-dominated, hierarchical society like professional team sports is always based in part on fear. At the very least it depends upon there being one alpha male in charge (be it player or coach) whose approval the others seek and whose reprisals or criticisms they fear. Frank can in no way inspire that kind of fear-based or paternalistic respect in these players. He never played at a serious level; is small in stature; is barely older than his oldest player and looks younger than half the team; is sensitive to his players feelings and would never publicly embarrass them; and, by all accounts, is soft even in his private "castigations" of players. And he's white, which wouldn't matter much if the other factors were different but, added to them, unquestionably discounts his alpha status on a team and in a league that is dominated by black players from mostly poor, urban backgrounds. His shortcomings as a paternal/alpha male figure wouldn't be critical if there were anyone else on this team with the personality and the on-court credibility to fill the void. But there isn't. I concurred with Dumpy long ago that Jason Kidd is a terrible "leader". If he were a real leader, Vince Carter wouldn't have gone through numerous "funks" in his NJ tenure where he was content to blend into the woodwork and watch the game from the perimeter. The team wouldn't for the better part of 2 seasons have come out lethargic and weak-spirited for at least one quarter or one half of nearly every game. It seems abundantly clear to me now that the REAL leader of this team during its heyday was K-Mart. Sure Kidd was by far the best player, but the enforcer -- the alpha male -- was Martin.</div> I thought this over, and I realize I agree 100%. Kidd IS a terrible leader, because a Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan would never have stood for the crap VC pulls. I presume that when a lot of us posters pine for the days of K-Mart, this is what we feel the team's missing. Someone who would go out there and hold everyone accountable. I don't think you ever get something like this out of the coach. A "loud, fiery coach" without the backing of a strong personality in the locker room is just another Scott Skiles or Larry Brown, a coach who might achieve short term success, but someone with whom players will quickly tire and tune out. It strikes me that Frank is a guy who understands what it takes to win a championship in the NBA. He may not necessarily understand how to execute those plans right now, with this group of players, but he can still learn. And that trait is so rare that I'd rather keep him around than keep trying with this same group of players who, regardless of who is coaching them, are not and never will be championship-level.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Jan 23 2008, 05:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>We need a real team leader. Anyone got any ideas they wanna throw around as to who, player or coach, would fill that void as a vocal team leader?</div> Joakim Noah. Joakim Noah. Joakim Noah. Joakim Noah. Joakim Noah. http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-29-5...in-Chicago.html http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-29-6...hammad-Ali.html
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (razel231 @ Jan 23 2008, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 23 2008, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Belarus @ Jan 23 2008, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>tonight during the game MJ said something like this referring to management "I don't care what you do, but if the team struggles like that, you better do something" Well, we're facing a dilemma: either trade the whole team or change the coach. History shows the latter is easier and more practical.</div> There's a general rule that's been proven true by experience that says when MJ's management sense tells him to do something, the best idea is normally the exact opposite. I mean, we're talking about a guy who was basically fired from being an owner. If he's teaching me how to shoot jumpers or play poker, that's one thing, but MJ's not a very good GM and his infamous lack of patience, which was a virtue as a player, is really his Achilles heel as an executive. </div> I didn't see the game but i believe he was referring to the Mark Jackson "MJ" who does Nets tv commentating not Michael Jordan. </div> You know what? I stand by the statement, even if I got the name wrong. Wouldn't want either of them to be my GM.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 23 2008, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I thought this over, and I realize I agree 100%. Kidd IS a terrible leader, because a Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan would never have stood for the crap VC pulls. I presume that when a lot of us posters pine for the days of K-Mart, this is what we feel the team's missing. Someone who would go out there and hold everyone accountable. I don't think you ever get something like this out of the coach. A "loud, fiery coach" without the backing of a strong personality in the locker room is just another Scott Skiles or Larry Brown, a coach who might achieve short term success, but someone with whom players will quickly tire and tune out. It strikes me that Frank is a guy who understands what it takes to win a championship in the NBA. He may not necessarily understand how to execute those plans right now, with this group of players, but he can still learn. And that trait is so rare that I'd rather keep him around than keep trying with this same group of players who, regardless of who is coaching them, are not and never will be championship-level.</div> I didn't have any intention in participating in this discussion, but I had to chime in and say that this is just an excellent, excellent post. Old age agrees with you! The thought I'd like to add is that Lawrence Frank is the only person in the whole organization that I want representing me as a Nets fan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Jan 23 2008, 02:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He takes full responsibility for his own mistakes, takes losses deeply personally yet is irrepressible in his attitude that the team can and will improve next time out, is as hardworking as anyone in the game, and is very protective (to a fault) of his players. With the right kind of team, I think he would be a dynamite coach.</div> The best solution is to fire the guy who built this team and replace him with someone who will build a team for which the person you described will be a "dynamite coach".
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 23 2008, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Belarus @ Jan 23 2008, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>tonight during the game MJ said something like this referring to management "I don't care what you do, but if the team struggles like that, you better do something" Well, we're facing a dilemma: either trade the whole team or change the coach. History shows the latter is easier and more practical.</div> There's a general rule that's been proven true by experience that says when MJ's management sense tells him to do something, the best idea is normally the exact opposite. I mean, we're talking about a guy who was basically fired from being an owner. If he's teaching me how to shoot jumpers or play poker, that's one thing, but MJ's not a very good GM and his infamous lack of patience, which was a virtue as a player, is really his Achilles heel as an executive. </div> Not that MJ, Mark Jackson
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrandKenyon6 @ Jan 23 2008, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Anyone who thinks Byron Scott didn't deserve to be fired clearly doesn't remember anything about that team.</div> I definitely believe he deserved to fired at that time, He delegated too much of the coaching to his then assitants, He learned from that and I think it's helped him become more of a "real" coach
Wow, it has been almost 5 hours since someone claimed that Kenyon was the real leader of the Nets teams that went to the finals and there hasn't been one post talking about KVH, press conferences or Zo. Somebody is really slipping
Cpaw I know you weren't talking about me, but I've just got 'to be real with it:' fuck alonzo mourning. oh and ly_yng, Joakim Noah is a great emotional player, but a leader? He just got benched by his teammates
Frank isn't the problem. Thorn is. Thorn is good at getting good players. But he's terrible at knowing what players fit together. How the hell are we supposed to have a good offense when we have one offensive big man, who is currently injured, most of our offensive players are wings, our biggest option is a half court guy, and the rest of them are fast break. its amazing that Frank is able to come up with anything that resembles a scheme.
