<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Jan 25 2008, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 25 2008, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Of course the legs are gone, they disappeared last season if anyone was watching - he just shot the jumper extremely well last year.</div> No way. You obviously missed incredible dunks against the likes of Atlanta, Chicago, and Toronto. The reverse alley oop in game 3 of the Raptors series was one for the ages (and is part of YES' Nets promotionals). His head wal literally in the net at one point, just a few inches below rim. That's what's remarkable about this decline: the suddenness of it. </div> A couple of nice dunks, big deal, he used to have a highlight dunk every other game. The dunks over Zo were his last truly amazing dunks. The legs started going last year. He had 1 dunk in the 6 game series vs. the Cavs. I remember, because I kept saying, I can't believe Vince has 1 dunk this whole freakin' series.
The $60 million question is whether his (lack of) performance is the result of some permanent physical deterioration, or whether he is suffering from an injury that will improve through extended rest. As someone pointed out, RJ had no explosion last year before he underwent surgery and had the chance to rest this past summer. Magic is speculating that it is the former, but only Vince and his family and teammates know the truth. Assuming he isn't traded, we'll know the answer next November 20, after the nets have played roughly 10% of their schedule.
And it's not all about getting highlights all season long, but the intensity and fire that VC would bring each and every game. The Nets are missing that kind of energy.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 25 2008, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>A couple of nice dunks, big deal, he used to have a highlight dunk every other game. The dunks over Zo were his last truly amazing dunks. The legs started going last year. He had 1 dunk in the 6 game series vs. the Cavs. I remember, because I kept saying, I can't believe Vince has 1 dunk this whole freakin' series.</div> It was more than a "couple", and you seem to overlook the obvious: if his legs were "gone" last year, he would have had ZERO. What we're talking about here is not some transient disability that comes and goes with the wind but a permanent impairment of something -- tendons, ligaments, composition of muscle fibre (fast vs. slow twitch), etc. If it's gone, it's gone and doesn't miraculously appear on occasion. And he certainly wouldn't be compiling one of the best dunks of his career against Toronto and unable to get off the floor against Cleveland (as you imply) with only days in between unless something happened in that interim. There were reports out later that summer that indicated Vince was suffering from knee tendenitis during the Cleveland series, which may indicate that was the real start of this decline and accounts for why he was so passive and ineffectual in that series. Many people thought he'd suffered something like this toward the end of his tenure in Toronto because dunks became extremely rare. But the falloff was 90% due to just a lack of motivation and aggressiveness, which his many hilight reel dunks in New Jersey and All Star games since demonstrate. I think he was never quite as athletically superb as he was his first 3 seasons in the league (and he did have the first of a couple of knee surgeries at the end of that time frame), but he wasn't as good a basketball player then as he was for his first 18 months+ in New Jersey. Bottom line is he still has plenty enough athleticism to be a very, very effective scorer when his engine is actually revving. As always, that's the variable that determines how well he's playing.
I think Richard Jefferson's injury is bothering him more than people are noticing (probably because the spotlight's on Vince). Our wing players are all injury-prone players who attempt to play with injuries and end up simply hurting their team defensively. And it sucks big ones, and really pisses me off when one of em gets beat because they can't move fast enough to stay with their man.
I agree with Magic's assessment. Carter is still a scorer and can hit some tough shots but you can see that he can't get by defenders as easily anymore and once he's by the rim, it's a layup and not a dunk. Some layups go in, others roll out. The part i'm worried about is 3 or 4 years from now. I can see him being what Michael Finley is now. Decent scorer but obviously not a 20 pt per game player he used to be. is that the type of player we want to be paying 15+mil for? I think Kidd can be effective until he's 40 but I would trade Carter for something now while he maybe has some value.
Even if Vince's knees are gone (I don't agree), with a proper off-season program he could get a significant amount of explosiveness. The only NBA player to play after having microfracture surgery on both knees now has the same explosiveness as he did in 2002.
Im sick of all these people bashing dude even when he has a good game. I hope he gets traded (like everyone around here wants), to a team like the CAVS imagine Vince and Lebron on a team. WOW
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 25 2008, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Even if Vince's knees are gone (I don't agree), with a proper off-season program he could get a significant amount of explosiveness. The only NBA player to play after having microfracture surgery on both knees now has the same explosiveness as he did in 2002.</div> Even assuming you weren't implying that microfracture surgery is appropriate for Vince, this is as speculative as Magic Johnson's assessment. If it is something in the knees, we have no idea what it is or that it would in the least be comparable to the experiences of someone deemed a candidate for or recovering from microfracture surgery.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Jan 25 2008, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 25 2008, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Even if Vince's knees are gone (I don't agree), with a proper off-season program he could get a significant amount of explosiveness. The only NBA player to play after having microfracture surgery on both knees now has the same explosiveness as he did in 2002.</div> Even assuming you weren't implying that microfracture surgery is appropriate for Vince, this is as speculative as Magic Johnson's assessment. If it is something in the knees, we have no idea what it is or that it would in the least be comparable to the experiences of someone deemed a candidate for or recovering from microfracture surgery. </div> Wow, you completely missed the point. I was in no way implying that Vince needed microfracture surgery. Rather my point is that even for someone coming back from the most debilitating knee surgery, it is possible to rehab back explosiveness. As I said, I don't believe Vince's knees are shot; however, I do believe that he needs a summer of intensive rehab to recondition himself. He can jump just fine on occasion, but he isn't comfortable doing it all the time. He's a multi-year NBA player that use to jump a lot. It is time for him to change his conditioning program.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Joker @ Jan 25 2008, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The legs are gone. <div><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3zIULG3IbiE&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3zIULG3IbiE&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" /></embed></object></div> -MaxaMillion711 (s2's own...I believe?) You might say that he's more of a complete player now, but he can't do the things he did in Toronto. Normally on a fastbreak he would throw it down and now he just settles. (hence why he passed on the ball to Wright during a fastbreak yesterday.)</div> there really is something bothering him physically...vc, even with his lack of aggressiveness, would dunk that given he had a clear lane and is not that stupid to do that head-scratcher of a pass to antoine wright who can rarely finish anything near the rim...
FWIW, I thought VC's knees were basically gone after he got hurt while playing for Toronto. He's not at all been the same player since. If his knees weren't gone, then he was scared of another injury and played like they were...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 25 2008, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, you completely missed the point. I was in no way implying that Vince needed microfracture surgery. Rather my point is that even for someone coming back from the most debilitating knee surgery, it is possible to rehab back explosiveness. As I said, I don't believe Vince's knees are shot; however, I do believe that he needs a summer of intensive rehab to recondition himself. He can jump just fine on occasion, but he isn't comfortable doing it all the time. He's a multi-year NBA player that use to jump a lot. It is time for him to change his conditioning program.</div> No, as usual you try to blame others for your poor communication and reasoning. Microfracture surgery is used to rehabilitate a very narrow category of knee problem: limited degeneration/loss of cartilage. The fact that microfracture surgery followed by rehab can -- for SOME -- result in enough regenerated (if different) cartilage to eliminate pain and permit more explosive use of the thigh muscles and stress on the joint may or may not have anything to do with Vince's knee problems, assuming he has any in the first place. That's my point. You are purely speculating when you state that offseason conditioning has any hope of reversing his "condition". If he does have a knee issue, it could very well be chronic tendonitis, which is simply not something that will ever go away for a professional athlete and is certainly the last kind of condition you would want to "treat" by intensively using the inflamed tissues during the only time of year the athlete really has to rest.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jan 25 2008, 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Magic's a dumbass... </div> Haha, well done sir. This was the post everyone was waiting for. -Petey
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Jan 25 2008, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 25 2008, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, you completely missed the point. I was in no way implying that Vince needed microfracture surgery. Rather my point is that even for someone coming back from the most debilitating knee surgery, it is possible to rehab back explosiveness. As I said, I don't believe Vince's knees are shot; however, I do believe that he needs a summer of intensive rehab to recondition himself. He can jump just fine on occasion, but he isn't comfortable doing it all the time. He's a multi-year NBA player that use to jump a lot. It is time for him to change his conditioning program.</div> No, as usual you try to blame others for your poor communication and reasoning. Microfracture surgery is used to rehabilitate a very narrow category of knee problem: limited degeneration/loss of cartilage. The fact that microfracture surgery followed by rehab can -- for SOME -- result in enough regenerated (if different) cartilage to eliminate pain and permit more explosive use of the thigh muscles and stress on the joint may or may not have anything to do with Vince's knee problems, assuming he has any in the first place. That's my point. You are purely speculating when you state that offseason conditioning has any hope of reversing his "condition". If he does have a knee issue, it could very well be chronic tendonitis, which is simply not something that will ever go away for a professional athlete and is certainly the last kind of condition you would want to "treat" by intensively using the inflamed tissues during the only time of year the athlete really has to rest. </div> I've never seen such verbose childishness in my life. Congratulations on topping yourself. I expect Jizzy to pick fights with me for no reason, but you are a grown woman. Quit looking for insults to Vince that don't exist. Microfracture surgery is a surgery of last resort. Just a few seasons ago it was considered a virtual death sentence for NBA players. A professional athlete rehabbing themselves back to pre-injury athleticism is an extremely new phenomena. NBA players coming back from the worst of the worst is a comment to provide hope to fans that are overly worried about this. As far as speculating, that is what everyone in this thread is doing, including yourself. My speculation is that I don't believe there is anything wrong with his knees. If it was tendinitis, I have no doubt that we would have heard that diagnosis publicly. Plus, if the Nets did diagnose him with tendinitis, I'd be very worried since they have misdiagnosed that in the past by missing a more serious condition and calling it tendinitis.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Joker @ Jan 25 2008, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The legs are gone. <div><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3zIULG3IbiE&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3zIULG3IbiE&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" /></embed></object></div> -MaxaMillion711 (s2's own...I believe?) You might say that he's more of a complete player now, but he can't do the things he did in Toronto. Normally on a fastbreak he would throw it down and now he just settles. (hence why he passed on the ball to Wright during a fastbreak yesterday.)</div> Wow, Vince makes windmills look so easy. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jan 25 2008, 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Magic's a dumbass... </div> Lol, that totally cracked me up.
I think Last Nights half time report was way over the top for Magic to come out like that about Vince was unnecessary. I think we all know how Chuck feels about Vince, but the halftime show and the commentating during the game especially by Reggie was ridiculous, Bashing Vince is getting a bit tired. If you don't like watching Vince then don't watch him
