<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 10 2008, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 10 2008, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But the time to use him to retool was before signing him to a contract no one wants. As for using him on the court, that's not the way to rebuild. First you build the core, then you add the pieces around it. Maybe Vince could be one of those useful pieces if there was a rebuilding process underway right now, but there isn't. The Nets are years away. They don't have a single player on the roster to build around. Commit to him at this price for no reason and hope to build a team around players the Nets don't even have yet with whom he could theoretically fit in several years from now - that plan sounds great.</div> I'm not talking about keeping Carter around in a rebuilding process where you are trying to build through draft picks and develop a young core and dump long term contracts. I'm talking about retooling the team with Carter and as an example use the pieces from a possible Kidd trade to do it. If they want to completely rebuild and can find expiring contracts and some young prospects and/or draft picks for Kidd, Carter and maybe Jefferson then thats one direction to go in. But there is also the other direction I mentioned about retooling the roster by getting some assets and using them later on to land a marquee player to add to Jefferson, Carter, Krstic and whatever else. </div> What kind of star players are they going to add to Carter and Jefferson that will lead to the Nets being championship contenders? What assets will they use to acquire these players? </div> What percentage of the time does a complete rebuild a la Minnesota actually result in the team eventually becoming contenders? Usually, they peak at mediocre. I think you have a better chance of eventually contending if you keep half your core intact. For one thing, it gives you the flexibility to make in immediately splash like Boston did. </div> The immediate core is Kidd. They don't have Paul Pierce and they DEFINITELY don't have Al Jefferson. If you recall, I posted many times that rebuilding sucks and a smart GM could have fixed this at any point down the line including this past offseason. Guess what? It's too late. There wasn't enough urgency. It's time to reload and put someone in charge who is qualified to do that. Thorn is qualified to go to hell.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 10 2008, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 10 2008, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But the time to use him to retool was before signing him to a contract no one wants. As for using him on the court, that's not the way to rebuild. First you build the core, then you add the pieces around it. Maybe Vince could be one of those useful pieces if there was a rebuilding process underway right now, but there isn't. The Nets are years away. They don't have a single player on the roster to build around. Commit to him at this price for no reason and hope to build a team around players the Nets don't even have yet with whom he could theoretically fit in several years from now - that plan sounds great.</div> I'm not talking about keeping Carter around in a rebuilding process where you are trying to build through draft picks and develop a young core and dump long term contracts. I'm talking about retooling the team with Carter and as an example use the pieces from a possible Kidd trade to do it. If they want to completely rebuild and can find expiring contracts and some young prospects and/or draft picks for Kidd, Carter and maybe Jefferson then thats one direction to go in. But there is also the other direction I mentioned about retooling the roster by getting some assets and using them later on to land a marquee player to add to Jefferson, Carter, Krstic and whatever else. </div> What kind of star players are they going to add to Carter and Jefferson that will lead to the Nets being championship contenders? What assets will they use to acquire these players? </div> What percentage of the time does a complete rebuild a la Minnesota actually result in the team eventually becoming contenders? Usually, they peak at mediocre. I think you have a better chance of eventually contending if you keep half your core intact. For one thing, it gives you the flexibility to make in immediately splash like Boston did. </div> The immediate core is Kidd. They don't have Paul Pierce and they DEFINITELY don't have Al Jefferson. If you recall, I posted many times that rebuilding sucks and a smart GM could have fixed this at any point down the line including this past offseason. Guess what? It's too late. There wasn't enough urgency. <span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">It's time to reload and put someone in charge who is qualified to do that. Thorn is qualified to go to hell.</span> </div> I nearly spit out my coke reading this. This is one of many why Ghoti is one of my fav posters.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 10 2008, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 10 2008, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But the time to use him to retool was before signing him to a contract no one wants. As for using him on the court, that's not the way to rebuild. First you build the core, then you add the pieces around it. Maybe Vince could be one of those useful pieces if there was a rebuilding process underway right now, but there isn't. The Nets are years away. They don't have a single player on the roster to build around. Commit to him at this price for no reason and hope to build a team around players the Nets don't even have yet with whom he could theoretically fit in several years from now - that plan sounds great.</div> I'm not talking about keeping Carter around in a rebuilding process where you are trying to build through draft picks and develop a young core and dump long term contracts. I'm talking about retooling the team with Carter and as an example use the pieces from a possible Kidd trade to do it. If they want to completely rebuild and can find expiring contracts and some young prospects and/or draft picks for Kidd, Carter and maybe Jefferson then thats one direction to go in. But there is also the other direction I mentioned about retooling the roster by getting some assets and using them later on to land a marquee player to add to Jefferson, Carter, Krstic and whatever else. </div> What kind of star players are they going to add to Carter and Jefferson that will lead to the Nets being championship contenders? What assets will they use to acquire these players? </div> What percentage of the time does a complete rebuild a la Minnesota actually result in the team eventually becoming contenders? Usually, they peak at mediocre. I think you have a better chance of eventually contending if you keep half your core intact. For one thing, it gives you the flexibility to make in immediately splash like Boston did. </div> The immediate core is Kidd. They don't have Paul Pierce and they DEFINITELY don't have Al Jefferson. If you recall, I posted many times that rebuilding sucks and a smart GM could have fixed this at any point down the line including this past offseason. Guess what? It's too late. There wasn't enough urgency. It's time to reload and put someone in charge who is qualified to do that. Thorn is qualified to go to hell. </div> go ghoti! It's your birthday!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Feb 10 2008, 07:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 10 2008, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 10 2008, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But the time to use him to retool was before signing him to a contract no one wants. As for using him on the court, that's not the way to rebuild. First you build the core, then you add the pieces around it. Maybe Vince could be one of those useful pieces if there was a rebuilding process underway right now, but there isn't. The Nets are years away. They don't have a single player on the roster to build around. Commit to him at this price for no reason and hope to build a team around players the Nets don't even have yet with whom he could theoretically fit in several years from now - that plan sounds great.</div> I'm not talking about keeping Carter around in a rebuilding process where you are trying to build through draft picks and develop a young core and dump long term contracts. I'm talking about retooling the team with Carter and as an example use the pieces from a possible Kidd trade to do it. If they want to completely rebuild and can find expiring contracts and some young prospects and/or draft picks for Kidd, Carter and maybe Jefferson then thats one direction to go in. But there is also the other direction I mentioned about retooling the roster by getting some assets and using them later on to land a marquee player to add to Jefferson, Carter, Krstic and whatever else. </div> What kind of star players are they going to add to Carter and Jefferson that will lead to the Nets being championship contenders? What assets will they use to acquire these players? </div> What percentage of the time does a complete rebuild a la Minnesota actually result in the team eventually becoming contenders? Usually, they peak at mediocre. I think you have a better chance of eventually contending if you keep half your core intact. For one thing, it gives you the flexibility to make in immediately splash like Boston did. </div> The immediate core is Kidd. They don't have Paul Pierce and they DEFINITELY don't have Al Jefferson. If you recall, I posted many times that rebuilding sucks and a smart GM could have fixed this at any point down the line including this past offseason. Guess what? It's too late. There wasn't enough urgency. It's time to reload and put someone in charge who is qualified to do that. Thorn is qualified to go to hell. </div> go ghoti! It's your birthday! </div> My birthday is May 31. Somebody tell that woman in Indiana.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 10 2008, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I have no problem with the Carter signing, to tell you the truth. The guy just came off the two best offensive seasons in Nets history. He's hurt right now. If healthy, he might not be a bargain, but he'd be worth every penny.</div> If Carter was signed at market value, then how come no-one wants him in a trade? Or, conversely, if no-one wants him in a trade, how come he was signed for so much? Isn't that the definition of market value?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Feb 10 2008, 10:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 10 2008, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I have no problem with the Carter signing, to tell you the truth. The guy just came off the two best offensive seasons in Nets history. He's hurt right now. If healthy, he might not be a bargain, but he'd be worth every penny.</div> If Carter was signed at market value, then how come no-one wants him in a trade? Or, conversely, if no-one wants him in a trade, how come he was signed for so much? Isn't that the definition of market value? </div> Not really. For one thing, many teams have a player just as valuable at his position, so they would be unlikely to want to acquire him. Second, one reason why no one wants him right now is because he is playing poorly, as the result of his injury. The extent of the injury is unclear. Will it last all season? Will he need surgery? There are just too many unknowns right now, which is why I think it is foolish for the Nets to think about trading him. If he doesn't recover his explosiveness, then he'll have the same market value he has now next year. If he does improve, then he'll be more valuable.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 10 2008, 11:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Not really. For one thing, many teams have a player just as valuable at his position, so they would be unlikely to want to acquire him. Second, one reason why no one wants him right now is because he is playing poorly, as the result of his injury. The extent of the injury is unclear. Will it last all season? Will he need surgery? There are just too many unknowns right now, which is why I think it is foolish for the Nets to think about trading him. If he doesn't recover his explosiveness, then he'll have the same market value he has now next year. If he does improve, then he'll be more valuable.</div> Buy low, sell high. Trading Carter right now would make zero sense. If Carter does not get any better, then the Nets are no worse off then their current situation. If he gets better, then either the Nets win more or have a better bargaining position.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 9 2008, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If Ratner made him sign Carter, Thorn should have showed some integrity and resigned. If Ratner had nothing to do with it, Thorn should be immediately fired.</div> Why do you believe Thorn has integrity? Why do you believe Ratner or Thorn care about winning? Why do you believe that Ratner spends any moment judging Thorn based upon the Win-Loss record of the Nets? Furthermore, why do you believe the Nets front office cares about the opinions of the die-hard Nets fans?
I posted this elsewhere. It comes down to timing. Carter had a great year last season. The Nets (and by Nets that included Ratner & Thorn) would had looked like idiots letting him go. On another note if he had his type of season in his option year, he would be in Grizzles jersey right now. Won't have opted out, and would had been the expiring contract the Grizzles were looking for, for Gasol. Could had seen a: Carter Collins Boki Drafts picks / or Marcus / or whomever For: Gasol Swift Miller. -Petey
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Feb 11 2008, 12:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 9 2008, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If Ratner made him sign Carter, Thorn should have showed some integrity and resigned. If Ratner had nothing to do with it, Thorn should be immediately fired.</div> Why do you believe Thorn has integrity? Why do you believe Ratner or Thorn care about winning? Why do you believe that Ratner spends any moment judging Thorn based upon the Win-Loss record of the Nets? Furthermore, why do you believe the Nets front office cares about the opinions of the die-hard Nets fans? </div> The only response in this thread that shows an understanding about why people who care about the Nets should be despondent right now. Winning isn't a priority to those running the franchise. I think most people here still view things with the expectation that Nets management thinks like the fans do and they are just doing the wrong things. I started this thread because I think people should realize that the investment they are making as a Nets fan, both emotionally and financially, is not shared by those in charge of the team. The team was purchased for the sole purpose of providing a tenant for the arena in the Atlantic Yards. Yormark was hired to keep the franchise financially solvent and keep the people of New Jersey engaged enough to make the wait to move to Brooklyn as palatable as possible for the owners. When decisions have to be made where the long-term success of the team on the court clashes with what is best for the owners and their main impetus, the latter will prevail every time. That's why I get upset when people criticize Lawrence Frank. He's not a bagman like Thorn or a greedy businessman like Ratner. He is the only management person in the franchise that actually cares about the product on the court. Thorn doesn't fire him because he's one of the reasons Rod can sleep at night. Thorn can't feel like a complete sellout while employing a coach that works as hard and cares as much as Frank, even if he isn't perfect. Look, I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally trying to lose. I believe everyone does what they can to win as long as it's in their best interests. But there are plenty of teams not operating under that handicap, and those are the ones that will win titles. The Nets won't win anything unless their sole commitment is to winning. That's been proven over the last five years. The Nets had the core personnel and the opportunity to be a real, legitimate contender - but to get there would have required them to make winning their #1 priority, and that was just not reality. If anyone goes to that bullshit meeting and shares any of these views, please feel free to convey them. You won't get an honest answer, but maybe they will at least feel guilty for five minutes. At least they will know that we still care about winning, even if it's only incidental to them.
I'm just mesmerized by your use of several multiple-sentence paragraphs in the same post. What's up with that?
