<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Daily Herald - Nothing appears serious right now, but sources say the Bulls are said to be testing the market for Ben Gordon. Because Gordon will be a restricted free agent and is likely to sign their qualifying offer to become an unrestricted free agent in 2009, the Bulls may feel inclined to deal him now.</div> Source
They should have felt inclined to deal him a couple years back when Minnesota was shopping their pick in and ended up taking Randy Foye.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Feb 19 2008, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>They should have felt inclined to deal him a couple years back when Minnesota was shopping their pick in and ended up taking Randy Foye.</div> No shock. He's not worth more than they already offered him. When Paxson picked Gordon, it was a bit of a head scratcher. 6'2" SG with the #3 pick? OK, maybe he's special like Iverson (nope) OK, maybe he can play PG (nope) OK, so now we have a slightly above average yet undersized SG. What the heck do you do with that when he wants big bucks? Pairing him w/ Hinrich just brings up too many problems. I know many thought he could play PG, but we have not seen it yet. Its a shame, b/c he turned out to be about what would be expected out of a 6'2" non-Iverson like SG. But, we can't really pay him the big bucks to be our 6th man (since all the other salary is being soaked up by guys like Wallace, Nocioni, Smith, etc).
They could have had Pau Gasol this time last year for Ben Gordon and other pieces but they said that Gordon was their "franchise guy." Gordon certainly has some value but I don't think there's enough time between now and the deadline to make a deal unless something spectacular comes up in the next 48 hours. He could be certainly be a draft-day mover though if they are really serious about moving him.
At least statistically, I'm pretty surprised Gordon hasn't been better as a PG. I spent some time looking at the guys I think he's pretty comparable to, and it still seems to me he could be used as a PG if we wanted to: Compared to Jason Terry and Mo Williams, Gordon was used just as much as a PG as they were in college and generated about the same AS/TO ratio there. Terry was 1.6 (1.8 minus his last year at UNLV when he was really chucking the ball), Williams and Gordon both 1.4. 82Games breaks down turnovers by type. I took at look at this per 48 minutes and was surprised to see that Gordon's TO rates weren't much different than those guys even though they're used as PGs more (and thus generate more assists). TOs = Total turnovers BP = Bad Passes BH = Ball Handling OT = Other (stuff like 3 seconds in the lane) <pre> Assists TOs OF BP BH OT J. Terry 3.8 1.5 0.1 1.0 0.4 M. Wil 6.2 2.7 0.2 1.5 1.0 B. Gordon 2.9 2.3 0.2 1.2 1.0 </pre> As you can see, in terms of his rates of ball handling errors and bad passes, it seems like he doesn't make many more errors than these other guys. What's different is he's asked to do it less than these guys because he very rarely plays the PG role in the Bulls' offense. I guess this doesn't solve the problem at the end, because one could always say that if you start playing him more at PG his TO rates would go up, but I don't see any reason to assume that would happen. I think it's very possible that if we put the ball in his hands and told him to run the show more, we might get more "PG-like" stats from him. In other words, why not stick him next to Thabo and see how things work out?
The thing about sticking him next to Thabo is ... what about Hinrich? Still sounds like a 6th man to me. Hinrich / Thabo starting I don't like much either. Perhaps with Deng at the 3 and if Thabo can improve his shot. Argh.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Feb 19 2008, 12:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>At least statistically, I'm pretty surprised Gordon hasn't been better as a PG. I spent some time looking at the guys I think he's pretty comparable to, and it still seems to me he could be used as a PG if we wanted to: Compared to Jason Terry and Mo Williams, Gordon was used just as much as a PG as they were in college and generated about the same AS/TO ratio there. Terry was 1.6 (1.8 minus his last year at UNLV when he was really chucking the ball), Williams and Gordon both 1.4. 82Games breaks down turnovers by type. I took at look at this per 48 minutes and was surprised to see that Gordon's TO rates weren't much different than those guys even though they're used as PGs more (and thus generate more assists). TOs = Total turnovers BP = Bad Passes BH = Ball Handling OT = Other (stuff like 3 seconds in the lane) <pre> Assists TOs OF BP BH OT J. Terry 3.8 1.5 0.1 1.0 0.4 M. Wil 6.2 2.7 0.2 1.5 1.0 B. Gordon 2.9 2.3 0.2 1.2 1.0 </pre> As you can see, in terms of his rates of ball handling errors and bad passes, it seems like he doesn't make many more errors than these other guys. What's different is he's asked to do it less than these guys because he very rarely plays the PG role in the Bulls' offense. I guess this doesn't solve the problem at the end, because one could always say that if you start playing him more at PG his TO rates would go up, but I don't see any reason to assume that would happen. I think it's very possible that if we put the ball in his hands and told him to run the show more, we might get more "PG-like" stats from him. In other words, why not stick him next to Thabo and see how things work out?</div> I looked at Gordon's ballhandling stats in college vs. Hinrich's. Both played a lot of off guard and some PG. They were quite similar, numbers-wise. I don't know that Gordon would ever be a Chris Paul type of PG, but I've always thought his upside was something like Baron Davis. Gordon did average 3.6 APG last season from the SG spot, which is a remarkably strong number relative to other SGs. It's also remarkable in that Gordon doesn't dominate the ball for much of the shot clock (that'd be Hinrich). Gordon's actually played a lot more PG this season than in any of the previous years with the Bulls. I think he looks fine, but looks more like Duhon than Baron. He doesn't handle the ball much, but rather passes it ASAP, which may be a sign of trust in his teammates. His assist numbers are way down this season (almost 1/game), IMO, because the guys he's passing to don't make their shots much, or the passes are so good the guys get hammered/fouled.
Thabo will; never be a great shooter, he is just a great off the bench guy and the Bulls need to realize that. Honestly, I think they should ahve dealt Deng when he was being rated to hell and back.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kukoc4ever @ Feb 19 2008, 05:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The thing about sticking him next to Thabo is ... what about Hinrich? Still sounds like a 6th man to me. Hinrich / Thabo starting I don't like much either. Perhaps with Deng at the 3 and if Thabo can improve his shot. Argh.</div> Hinrich sounds like a 6th man or Gordon? I guess my point is that with Gordon I think the statistical evidence suggests his ball handling skills are just as good as the other guys I've mentioned. They're just not on display because he's pigeon-holed as a scorer for the Bulls. Especially if you're sticking him next to Thabo, an actual big guard who can sometimes bring the ball up the floor, it just seems like the Bulls should give it a shot. Then you've got a starting combo of Gordon and Thabo. I know it's a crazy idea to actually start your most threatening, impressive lineup, but I like the potential of Gordon/Thabo better than Kirk/Thabo. Given a bit of work, I could see Gordon/Thabo working out pretty nicely. You pair up your big slashing to the basket guy with a good handle (think of Thabo as a poor-man's Andre Iguadala) and your sweet-shooting PG with a good handle. In theory at least, and in the limited practice I've seen, those two made for a pretty nice combination on the floor. Hinrich doesn't seem to bring quite the advantages to pairing with either of those guys that they bring when pairing to each other. That being said, he has always struck me as the more natural 6th man, since, despite not being top notch, he could come off the bench and be above average in either role.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Feb 20 2008, 10:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hinrich sounds like a 6th man or Gordon?</div> I was referring to Gordon, but I can see Hinrich as more of a 6th man as well. I think Hinrich is a better PG than Gordon. I like looking at assist ratio and PPR. Duhon PPR: 6.5 Ast Ratio: 36.1 Hinrich PPR: 4.6 Ast Ratio: 27.4 Gordon PPR: -1.2 Ast Ratio: 11.8 These numbers back up what my eyeballs have always told be about the guy, that he's not shown that he's good at running an offense / creating for others. He's an OK ball handler, but I don't think he's a PG. I agree about Hinrich as well, there is no ideal place to put him either. But, I'd rather have him at the 1 than Gordon at this point. That being said, perhaps its just the role Gordon has been asked to play and that's the reason he does not set other people up. Gordon / Thabo seems like a 1 and a 2 who are not good at creating for others. That could be trouble. Heck, its worth a shot before giving up on the guy though. We have nothing to lose. If he can focus on and get better at creating for others I’d rather see his scoring prowess at the 1 alongside Thabo.
Yeah. :| I guess I just haven't seen quite enough to say for certain Gordon at the one ain't gonna work. I'll concede that in contrast to the stats, my on-court sense of things is that he'd have a hard time of it. I guess the reason I really want to give it a shot is that, unless he can prove capable of it, I just don't see how he can fit in the long-run, whereas I can see Kirk starting next to a traditional high quality SG and doing pretty well.
You're comparing stats of PGs vs. the stats of an SG. If you look at Gordon's 82games.com numbers at PG, they're amazing.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Feb 20 2008, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're comparing stats of PGs vs. the stats of an SG. If you look at Gordon's 82games.com numbers at PG, they're amazing.</div> OK, let's just look at assist ratio. Here's a list ranked by all the heavier minute players in the NBA. http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/jh_ALL_AST.htm Gordon is 119 in assist ratio. Guys like Shawn Marion, Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol all are better rated in assist ratio. Like I said, assist ratio is just a number I like to look at. I'd like to see the 82 games stats that paint Gordon in a positve light as well, are those on his 82games player page?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kukoc4ever @ Feb 20 2008, 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Feb 20 2008, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're comparing stats of PGs vs. the stats of an SG. If you look at Gordon's 82games.com numbers at PG, they're amazing.</div> OK, let's just look at assist ratio. Here's a list ranked by all the heavier minute players in the NBA. http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/jh_ALL_AST.htm Gordon is 119 in assist ratio. Guys like Shawn Marion, Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol all are better rated in assist ratio. Like I said, assist ratio is just a number I like to look at. I'd like to see the 82 games stats that paint Gordon in a positve light as well, are those on his 82games player page? </div> This is Gordon's By-position page this season. http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI3C.HTM Gordon has not been nearly as impressive at PG. However, last year was a different case and is what Denny was referring to. http://www.82games.com/0607/06CHI4C.HTM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Feb 20 2008, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kukoc4ever @ Feb 20 2008, 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Feb 20 2008, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're comparing stats of PGs vs. the stats of an SG. If you look at Gordon's 82games.com numbers at PG, they're amazing.</div> OK, let's just look at assist ratio. Here's a list ranked by all the heavier minute players in the NBA. http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/jh_ALL_AST.htm Gordon is 119 in assist ratio. Guys like Shawn Marion, Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol all are better rated in assist ratio. Like I said, assist ratio is just a number I like to look at. I'd like to see the 82 games stats that paint Gordon in a positve light as well, are those on his 82games player page? </div> This is Gordon's By-position page this season. http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI3C.HTM Gordon has not been nearly as impressive at PG. However, last year was a different case and is what Denny was referring to. http://www.82games.com/0607/06CHI4C.HTM </div> Ah, OK. I was looking at his current player page and it showed that he's really been struggling at PG this season. Wow, a 30+ PER last year. Only 5% of the team minutes played were by Gordan at PG though. He played the same % of minutes at SF with a PER of around 22. I don't hear people clamoring for Gordon at SF though! Anyway, I'd like to see him play some heavy minutes at PG with the direction to play like a PG and see what he can do. Certainly a better option than just doing the seemingly inevitable Paxson/Uncle Jerry dump job we can all see coming without knowing a little more.
He didn't play minutes at SF. 82games.com doesn't deal with 3 guard sets very well. 5% of the minutes is a little over 4 games worth of minutes. In one game he played at PG full-time last season, he scored 37 or 39 points with 10 assists. It was a game that Hinrich missed.
I agree with k4e. Gordon's TOs aren't the main obstacle to him playing PG. His TO-ratio is very okay. The problem is that he doesn't generate enough opportunities for other players. One thing I've noticed is that he almost never gives the ball up on a pick and roll. Partly, I think, because he doesn't see the passing opportunities, and partly because he correctly decides that a jumpshot by him is a better shot than a jumpshot by Wallace or Joe Smith or whomever. It's possible if that if he had the ball in his hands more often he would be a more willing passer, but who knows? That he struggles as a starter trying to balance scoring/passing suggests that he wouldn't be great at PG regardless. I also think his fantastic stats at PG have come mostly against very poor defensive teams. Milwaukee, Miami... I'm willing to try it, but I can see the other side of the argument. There is the concern that if BG takes too many shots, then the offense stagnates, off the ball movement stops, and the rest of the team might become displeased with their roles.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kukoc4ever @ Feb 20 2008, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Anyway, I'd like to see him play some heavy minutes at PG with the direction to play like a PG and see what he can do. Certainly a better option than just doing the seemingly inevitable Paxson/Uncle Jerry dump job we can all see coming without knowing a little more.</div> His trade value would be through the roof if the organization did this. Instead of being a poor man's Ellis and Arenas, he would be right there with them.
