Five Things You Thought You Thought About The Kidd Trade

I don't want to turn this into a "bash Kidd" thread. He's a great player. Yes, he's a selfish prima donna, but in most cases that's necessary to BE a great NBA player--you need to be cocky and self absorbed, even arrogant. See, for instance, James, LeBron. Obviously that statement is overbroad and not true in all cases, but it's interesting that some players that lack that arrogance are criticised for not having a "killer instinct" and "winner's mentality"--like Vince, for instance.

However, on top of that, I just don't think that Jason Kidd is much of a leader. Although he helps his teammates play better on the court, he doesn't help them play HARDER consistently. Even before this year, it seemed like he would go entire quarters, halves, even games where he would just go through the motions--and his teammates would then do the same. He'd talk about how the team "took the game off," but I see him as one of the primary culprits for that. There's no question that when he is focused and driven, he can be a dominant player. But can he still do that for a three-month stretch? We haven't seen it.

I understand that you are just thrilled with geting Kidd on your favorite team. But if he is so great, and such a leader, why have the Nets been a .500 team for the last two years? Why are they five or eight games under .500 this year? It's easy to blame injuries, or the talent level of the players on the team, but other teams have injuries and can still win if they have leaders--look at Washington this year, for instance, or Houston last year when Yao was injured. If Kidd was such a great leader, why had he become a cancer in the locker room? Why was he getting to the foul line the fewest number of times in his career? Why is he taking the fewest shots in his career, with the lowest field goal percentage? Either he is proving that he is not a leader, or his skills ahev declined. There is no other possible answer. A leader LEADS, he doesn't go through the motions or is satisfied with a half-assed effort.

Who is the real Jason Kidd? I don't know. As I said earlier, I suspect that, like has happened with each team he has been on, he'll be focused and play well for the rest of this year and probably next year, but after that you'll start to see him take games off and come up with some random excuse about how "it wasn't their game." Ask yourself if Kevin Garnett or Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan would do that.

In this case, as was confirmed in an article today, Kidd decided he wanted to be traded over a year ago and just didn't want to play for the Nets any more, which is a damning statement, and insulting to both his teamamtes and the organization. At first, Kidd said that he wanted to play with an athletic big man who could finish--and now the Nets have THREE of them, so that wasn't the problem. I SUSPECT--although don't know for sure--that he just wanted to get away because of things that were going on in his personal life, but we'll never know for sure.

Kidd right now is half a player. His defense is overrated--on yesterday's Orlando Magic broadcast they mentioned how much Jameer Nelson--JAMEER NELSON, THE WORST STARTING PG IN THE LEAGUE--will miss Kidd, because Kidd couldn't contain him. He doesn't shoot, and when he does take a shot, there is a 2/3 chance he'll miss, anyway. He doesn't get to the line. His rebounds are overrated, because 90% of them are on the defensive end, and if he didn't get them, there's around an 85% chance that one of his teammates would. In other words, I figure he adds at most around one rebound per game over a lineup with a typically-rebounding PG. All that's left is his passing ability, and I'm not sure how much that's worth in comparison to those other skills. It's possible taht all those skills will improve now that he's focused--he definitely has been getting more steals than before, so it seems like his intensity is up--but that just brings us back to the leadership issue.

Anyway, just to finish, Jason was a great player for the Nets, and I loved to watch him--but I hated to root for him, because, as I said at the start of this, he's a selfish prima donna who resorts to sleazy behavior at times--lying about making a trade demand, pressuring the front office to make certain moves, and the personal stuff like the allegations in the divorce proceeding and the allegation that he groped a woman at a bar.

If you can ignore all that, all the more power to you, and you'll enjoy watching him play even more. I prefer to root for nice, introspective guys. Like Antoine Wright, who was one of my favorite players, even though he was terrified whenever he had the ball in his hands.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 27 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't want to turn this into a "bash Kidd" thread. He's a great player. Yes, he's a selfish prima donna, but in most cases that's necessary to BE a great NBA player--you need to be cocky and self absorbed, even arrogant. See, for instance, James, LeBron. Obviously that statement is overbroad and not true in all cases, but it's interesting that some players that lack that arrogance are criticised for not having a "killer instinct" and "winner's mentality"--like Vince, for instance.

However, on top of that, I just don't think that Jason Kidd is much of a leader. Although he helps his teammates play better on the court, he doesn't help them play HARDER consistently. Even before this year, it seemed like he would go entire quarters, halves, even games where he would just go through the motions--and his teammates would then do the same. He'd talk about how the team "took the game off," but I see him as one of the primary culprits for that. There's no question that when he is focused and driven, he can be a dominant player. But can he still do that for a three-month stretch? We haven't seen it.

I understand that you are just thrilled with geting Kidd on your favorite team. But if he is so great, and such a leader, why have the Nets been a .500 team for the last two years? Why are they five or eight games under .500 this year? It's easy to blame injuries, or the talent level of the players on the team, but other teams have injuries and can still win if they have leaders--look at Washington this year, for instance, or Houston last year when Yao was injured. If Kidd was such a great leader, why had he become a cancer in the locker room? Why was he getting to the foul line the fewest number of times in his career? Why is he taking the fewest shots in his career, with the lowest field goal percentage? Either he is proving that he is not a leader, or his skills ahev declined. There is no other possible answer. A leader LEADS, he doesn't go through the motions or is satisfied with a half-assed effort.

Who is the real Jason Kidd? I don't know. As I said earlier, I suspect that, like has happened with each team he has been on, he'll be focused and play well for the rest of this year and probably next year, but after that you'll start to see him take games off and come up with some random excuse about how "it wasn't their game." Ask yourself if Kevin Garnett or Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan would do that.

In this case, as was confirmed in an article today, Kidd decided he wanted to be traded over a year ago and just didn't want to play for the Nets any more, which is a damning statement, and insulting to both his teamamtes and the organization. At first, Kidd said that he wanted to play with an athletic big man who could finish--and now the Nets have THREE of them, so that wasn't the problem. I SUSPECT--although don't know for sure--that he just wanted to get away because of things that were going on in his personal life, but we'll never know for sure.

Kidd right now is half a player. His defense is overrated--on yesterday's Orlando Magic broadcast they mentioned how much Jameer Nelson--JAMEER NELSON, THE WORST STARTING PG IN THE LEAGUE--will miss Kidd, because Kidd couldn't contain him. He doesn't shoot, and when he does take a shot, there is a 2/3 chance he'll miss, anyway. He doesn't get to the line. His rebounds are overrated, because 90% of them are on the defensive end, and if he didn't get them, there's around an 85% chance that one of his teammates would. In other words, I figure he adds at most around one rebound per game over a lineup with a typically-rebounding PG. All that's left is his passing ability, and I'm not sure how much that's worth in comparison to those other skills. It's possible taht all those skills will improve now that he's focused--he definitely has been getting more steals than before, so it seems like his intensity is up--but that just brings us back to the leadership issue.

Anyway, just to finish, Jason was a great player for the Nets, and I loved to watch him--but I hated to root for him, because, as I said at the start of this, he's a selfish prima donna who resorts to sleazy behavior at times--lying about making a trade demand, pressuring the front office to make certain moves, and the personal stuff like the allegations in the divorce proceeding and the allegation that he groped a woman at a bar.

If you can ignore all that, all the more power to you, and you'll enjoy watching him play even more. I prefer to root for nice, introspective guys. Like Antoine Wright, who was one of my favorite players, even though he was terrified whenever he had the ball in his hands.</div>

Blah blah blah....

 

Dumpy, you are one hell of a trooper.

 

Now now... Let's not mock the guy (too much). But honestly Dumpy you have gone way beyond reason at a point that you over magnify situations. Sometimes things are just the way they are. Calling Kidd a prima donna is going off the road there. Kidd did not come to this decision overnight. How many times has it been said that Kidd wanted to retire a Net? I believe you even held it against Kidd not going to San Antonio. Really now? What do you want? Kidd stayed on to continue the run for another crack at the title. But it came to a point that management and Kidd wasn't seeing eye to eye on how to achieve their goals. It was a process. Kidd didn't say one day that he wanted out. Check the facts. You know how good Jason Kidd is, you acknowledge that. But your statements say otherwise. That's why you come off being bitter. Your comments say it all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 27 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>However, on top of that, I just don't think that Jason Kidd is much of a leader. Although he helps his teammates play better on the court, he doesn't help them play HARDER consistently. Even before this year, it seemed like he would go entire quarters, halves, even games where he would just go through the motions--and his teammates would then do the same. He'd talk about how the team "took the game off," but I see him as one of the primary culprits for that. There's no question that when he is focused and driven, he can be a dominant player. But can he still do that for a three-month stretch? We haven't seen it.

I understand that you are just thrilled with geting Kidd on your favorite team. But if he is so great, and such a leader, why have the Nets been a .500 team for the last two years? Why are they five or eight games under .500 this year? It's easy to blame injuries, or the talent level of the players on the team, but other teams have injuries and can still win if they have leaders--look at Washington this year, for instance, or Houston last year when Yao was injured. If Kidd was such a great leader, why had he become a cancer in the locker room? Why was he getting to the foul line the fewest number of times in his career? Why is he taking the fewest shots in his career, with the lowest field goal percentage? Either he is proving that he is not a leader, or his skills ahev declined. There is no other possible answer. A leader LEADS, he doesn't go through the motions or is satisfied with a half-assed effort.

. . . .

Kidd right now is half a player. His defense is overrated--on yesterday's Orlando Magic broadcast they mentioned how much Jameer Nelson--JAMEER NELSON, THE WORST STARTING PG IN THE LEAGUE--will miss Kidd, because Kidd couldn't contain him. He doesn't shoot, and when he does take a shot, there is a 2/3 chance he'll miss, anyway. He doesn't get to the line. His rebounds are overrated, because 90% of them are on the defensive end, and if he didn't get them, there's around an 85% chance that one of his teammates would. In other words, I figure he adds at most around one rebound per game over a lineup with a typically-rebounding PG. All that's left is his passing ability, and I'm not sure how much that's worth in comparison to those other skills. It's possible taht all those skills will improve now that he's focused--he definitely has been getting more steals than before, so it seems like his intensity is up--but that just brings us back to the leadership issue.

. . .</div>

So, how's that trade coming along for you now?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Mar 21 2008, 06:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 27 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>However, on top of that, I just don't think that Jason Kidd is much of a leader. Although he helps his teammates play better on the court, he doesn't help them play HARDER consistently. Even before this year, it seemed like he would go entire quarters, halves, even games where he would just go through the motions--and his teammates would then do the same. He'd talk about how the team "took the game off," but I see him as one of the primary culprits for that. There's no question that when he is focused and driven, he can be a dominant player. But can he still do that for a three-month stretch? We haven't seen it.

I understand that you are just thrilled with geting Kidd on your favorite team. But if he is so great, and such a leader, why have the Nets been a .500 team for the last two years? Why are they five or eight games under .500 this year? It's easy to blame injuries, or the talent level of the players on the team, but other teams have injuries and can still win if they have leaders--look at Washington this year, for instance, or Houston last year when Yao was injured. If Kidd was such a great leader, why had he become a cancer in the locker room? Why was he getting to the foul line the fewest number of times in his career? Why is he taking the fewest shots in his career, with the lowest field goal percentage? Either he is proving that he is not a leader, or his skills ahev declined. There is no other possible answer. A leader LEADS, he doesn't go through the motions or is satisfied with a half-assed effort.

. . . .

Kidd right now is half a player. His defense is overrated--on yesterday's Orlando Magic broadcast they mentioned how much Jameer Nelson--JAMEER NELSON, THE WORST STARTING PG IN THE LEAGUE--will miss Kidd, because Kidd couldn't contain him. He doesn't shoot, and when he does take a shot, there is a 2/3 chance he'll miss, anyway. He doesn't get to the line. His rebounds are overrated, because 90% of them are on the defensive end, and if he didn't get them, there's around an 85% chance that one of his teammates would. In other words, I figure he adds at most around one rebound per game over a lineup with a typically-rebounding PG. All that's left is his passing ability, and I'm not sure how much that's worth in comparison to those other skills. It's possible taht all those skills will improve now that he's focused--he definitely has been getting more steals than before, so it seems like his intensity is up--but that just brings us back to the leadership issue.

. . .</div>

So, how's that trade coming along for you now?
</div>

Much too soon for this kind of gloating.

The only way to judge this trade is after the playoffs.

When Dirk pulls his yearly fold, will Kidd get them through?

That's what this trade was all about. These regular season games are unimportant.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Mar 21 2008, 07:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Much too soon for this kind of gloating.</div>

What kind of gloating IS it time for?

I'm sure I'll be back in a few weeks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Mar 21 2008, 08:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Mar 21 2008, 07:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Much too soon for this kind of gloating.</div>

What kind of gloating IS it time for?

I'm sure I'll be back in a few weeks.
</div>


Now?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 23 2008, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Mar 21 2008, 08:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Mar 21 2008, 07:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Much too soon for this kind of gloating.</div>

What kind of gloating IS it time for?

I'm sure I'll be back in a few weeks.
</div>


Now?
</div>

Probably, but let's see the Mavs lose one game at home before opening the floodgates.

 

Hey, even Michael Jordan failed to advance the Bulls when he first returned.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insider @ Apr 24 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey, even Michael Jordan failed to advance the Bulls when he first returned.</div>

Yeah, but, ya see, Jason Kidd isn't Michael Jordan. Fail.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Apr 23 2008, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insider @ Apr 24 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey, even Michael Jordan failed to advance the Bulls when he first returned.</div>

Yeah, but, ya see, Jason Kidd isn't Michael Jordan. Fail.
</div>

No he isn't. But great players know how to rise from bad situations. And that he is.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insider @ Apr 24 2008, 01:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Apr 23 2008, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insider @ Apr 24 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey, even Michael Jordan failed to advance the Bulls when he first returned.</div>

Yeah, but, ya see, Jason Kidd isn't Michael Jordan. Fail.
</div>

No he isn't. But great players know how to rise from bad situations. And that he is.
</div>


But ya see, Michael Jordan couldn't even get his team into the playoffs when he was past his prime. And that, Kidd is.

Yeah, I don't know where I was going with that one, but I'm just saying. Barring some insane thing happening (etc. TMac/Brand/Davis coming to the Mavs), I don't see Kidd winning a championship with the Mavs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Apr 24 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insider @ Apr 24 2008, 01:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Apr 23 2008, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insider @ Apr 24 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey, even Michael Jordan failed to advance the Bulls when he first returned.</div>

Yeah, but, ya see, Jason Kidd isn't Michael Jordan. Fail.
</div>

No he isn't. But great players know how to rise from bad situations. And that he is.
</div>


But ya see, Michael Jordan couldn't even get his team into the playoffs when he was past his prime. And that, Kidd is.

Yeah, I don't know where I was going with that one, but I'm just saying. Barring some insane thing happening (etc. TMac/Brand/Davis coming to the Mavs), I don't see Kidd winning a championship with the Mavs.
</div>

What? First of all, in Jordan's first comeback, he did lead the Bulls to the playoffs, although losing to Orlando in the 2nd round. Secondly, in Michael's second comeback he was what? 38? And he played for the Wizards. DUH?!

 

As I said earlier in this thread about two months ago, Kidd just isn't much of a leader. That's not so unusual by itself--I'm not a great leader myself--but what's interesting is that he THINKS he's a great leader, he WANTS to be the leader, and his teammates always seem to defer to him as if he was the leader. He doesn't seem to have a good grasp on his inherent interactive skill set. He is delusional.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insider @ Apr 23 2008, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey, even Michael Jordan failed to advance the Bulls when he first returned.</div>

It's not comparable. The Mavs were already a strong contender without Kidd; he was supposed to be the "last piece" that would put this team over the top. that the team is no better with him is pretty damning.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insider @ Feb 28 2008, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now now... Let's not mock the guy (too much). But honestly Dumpy you have gone way beyond reason at a point that you over magnify situations. Sometimes things are just the way they are. Calling Kidd a prima donna is going off the road there. Kidd did not come to this decision overnight. How many times has it been said that Kidd wanted to retire a Net? I believe you even held it against Kidd not going to San Antonio. Really now? What do you want? Kidd stayed on to continue the run for another crack at the title. But it came to a point that management and Kidd wasn't seeing eye to eye on how to achieve their goals. It was a process. Kidd didn't say one day that he wanted out. Check the facts. You know how good Jason Kidd is, you acknowledge that. But your statements say otherwise. That's why you come off being bitter. Your comments say it all.</div>

Actually, I was thrilled that Kidd did not sign with San Antonio at the time. I did not anticipate that the Nets would experience the long slide that Kidd's previous teams did. But people change. It's unfair to judge him today for decisions he made five years ago, just like it is unfair to judge Vince Carter (in my view) on things he may have done or said as a 25-year-old.

It shouldn't matter that "management and Kidd wasn't seeing eye to eye on how to achieve their goals." There's a reason that there aren't any player/GMs. Everyone has a job to do. It always disturbs me when ANY player, in any sport, tries to get involved in personnel decisions. It is not their concern.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 24 2008, 08:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As I said earlier in this thread about two months ago, Kidd just isn't much of a leader. That's not so unusual by itself--I'm not a great leader myself--but what's interesting is that he THINKS he's a great leader, he WANTS to be the leader, and his teammates always seem to defer to him as if he was the leader. He doesn't seem to have a good grasp on his inherent interactive skill set. He is delusional.</div>

Hmmm... So who should we believe? The experts who say that Kidd is a great leader or some shmuck hiding behind his computer who calls himself Dumpy? Tough one...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AMS_ICE @ Apr 25 2008, 12:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 24 2008, 08:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As I said earlier in this thread about two months ago, Kidd just isn't much of a leader. That's not so unusual by itself--I'm not a great leader myself--but what's interesting is that he THINKS he's a great leader, he WANTS to be the leader, and his teammates always seem to defer to him as if he was the leader. He doesn't seem to have a good grasp on his inherent interactive skill set. He is delusional.</div>

Hmmm... So who should we believe? The experts who say that Kidd is a great leader or some shmuck hiding behind his computer who calls himself Dumpy? Tough one...
</div>

shmuck? Dumpy's far from a schmuck. Watch your mouth there, boy, and respect your elders.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Apr 25 2008, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AMS_ICE @ Apr 25 2008, 12:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 24 2008, 08:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As I said earlier in this thread about two months ago, Kidd just isn't much of a leader. That's not so unusual by itself--I'm not a great leader myself--but what's interesting is that he THINKS he's a great leader, he WANTS to be the leader, and his teammates always seem to defer to him as if he was the leader. He doesn't seem to have a good grasp on his inherent interactive skill set. He is delusional.</div>

Hmmm... So who should we believe? The experts who say that Kidd is a great leader or some shmuck hiding behind his computer who calls himself Dumpy? Tough one...
</div>

shmuck? Dumpy's far from a schmuck. Watch your mouth there, boy, and respect your elders.
</div>

Sorry about the shmuck bit. It's just frustrating reasoning with someone who thinks he knows everything and believe that he is the only one that's right.