Hey Cpaw what's your plan? I know it involves trading Devin, which I'm not adverse to, but what's the rest of your plan?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 6 2008, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>In order for LBJ to come to the Nets, not only would they need the cap space, but they would need to have pieces that he could win with. What moves would you make to get to that point?</div> seriously for starters I'd target Al Jefferson while getting rid of high cap salaries.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 6 2008, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Universe @ Mar 6 2008, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Trade Vince and RJ and get two young guys. We need one full year of Devin to see what he needs around him.</div> Young guys at what positions? Young guys that have what skills? What types of bad contracts are you willing to take back to get young guys? </div> I agreed with the original post - basically, VC and RJ need to go. It isn't simply building a team around Harris at this point, but moreso building a TEAM. I'd trade them for younger, fast, defense-oriented swingmen. Ideally, for RJ, you want Portland to be interested in him. Either Travis Outlaw or Martell Webster and Raef Lafrentz expiring contract for RJ and whatever contracts balances it out. Unfortunately, I think Portland has a long-term strategy that doesn't involve making bad decisions, so this will be tough. You'd have to hope a Western team that's weak at SF (like Utah, San Antonio) comes up short in the playoffs and comes after him. Perhaps Ime Uduka, Kurt Thomas (signed for one year ala Van Horn) and Tiago Splitter's draft rights for RJ? With VC, you have to find the dumbest GMs in the league, and start talking to them to get the typical young players/picks/expiring contracts pu-pu platter. I think Chicago, after bombing this season, could be interested. But it's also worth placing phone calls to the Knicks, Milwaukee, etc.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netted @ Mar 6 2008, 12:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey Cpaw what's your plan? I know it involves trading Devin, which I'm not adverse to, but what's the rest of your plan?</div> Basically it is acquire as many assets as possible over the next year plus and then see what you have. With lottery picks in 2008 and 2009, the Nets could have completely different strengths and weaknesses on the roster by next summer. At his salary, I wouldn't mind keeping Devin; however, in an asset building mode, I believe he can bring back more than he is worth or be used to increase the value of another player in a trade.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netsfan318 @ Mar 6 2008, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 6 2008, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>In order for LBJ to come to the Nets, not only would they need the cap space, but they would need to have pieces that he could win with. What moves would you make to get to that point?</div> seriously for starters I'd target Al Jefferson while getting rid of high cap salaries. </div> Attempting to trade for a player that a team has as their franchise player isn't realistic.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 6 2008, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netsfan318 @ Mar 6 2008, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 6 2008, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>In order for LBJ to come to the Nets, not only would they need the cap space, but they would need to have pieces that he could win with. What moves would you make to get to that point?</div> seriously for starters I'd target Al Jefferson while getting rid of high cap salaries. </div> Attempting to trade for a player that a team has as their franchise player isn't realistic. </div> pffft... Kevin McHale
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rory @ Mar 6 2008, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 6 2008, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Universe @ Mar 6 2008, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Trade Vince and RJ and get two young guys. We need one full year of Devin to see what he needs around him.</div> Young guys at what positions? Young guys that have what skills? What types of bad contracts are you willing to take back to get young guys? </div> I agreed with the original post - basically, VC and RJ need to go. It isn't simply building a team around Harris at this point, but moreso building a TEAM. I'd trade them for younger, fast, defense-oriented swingmen. Ideally, for RJ, you want Portland to be interested in him. Either Travis Outlaw or Martell Webster and Raef Lafrentz expiring contract for RJ and whatever contracts balances it out. Unfortunately, I think Portland has a long-term strategy that doesn't involve making bad decisions, so this will be tough. You'd have to hope a Western team that's weak at SF (like Utah, San Antonio) comes up short in the playoffs and comes after him. Perhaps Ime Uduka, Kurt Thomas (signed for one year ala Van Horn) and Tiago Splitter's draft rights for RJ? With VC, you have to find the dumbest GMs in the league, and start talking to them to get the typical young players/picks/expiring contracts pu-pu platter. I think Chicago, after bombing this season, could be interested. But it's also worth placing phone calls to the Knicks, Milwaukee, etc. </div> How long are you willing to keep them on the team if you can't find a good deal? At what point do they become a detriment to building for the future?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 6 2008, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rory @ Mar 6 2008, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 6 2008, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Universe @ Mar 6 2008, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Trade Vince and RJ and get two young guys. We need one full year of Devin to see what he needs around him.</div> Young guys at what positions? Young guys that have what skills? What types of bad contracts are you willing to take back to get young guys? </div> I agreed with the original post - basically, VC and RJ need to go. It isn't simply building a team around Harris at this point, but moreso building a TEAM. I'd trade them for younger, fast, defense-oriented swingmen. Ideally, for RJ, you want Portland to be interested in him. Either Travis Outlaw or Martell Webster and Raef Lafrentz expiring contract for RJ and whatever contracts balances it out. Unfortunately, I think Portland has a long-term strategy that doesn't involve making bad decisions, so this will be tough. You'd have to hope a Western team that's weak at SF (like Utah, San Antonio) comes up short in the playoffs and comes after him. Perhaps Ime Uduka, Kurt Thomas (signed for one year ala Van Horn) and Tiago Splitter's draft rights for RJ? With VC, you have to find the dumbest GMs in the league, and start talking to them to get the typical young players/picks/expiring contracts pu-pu platter. I think Chicago, after bombing this season, could be interested. But it's also worth placing phone calls to the Knicks, Milwaukee, etc. </div> How long are you willing to keep them on the team if you can't find a good deal? At what point do they become a detriment to building for the future? </div> Haha, they are already a detriment!
Devin Harris isn't someone you build a team around. He's more of a piece to the puzzle player than a building block. The Nets will probably try to build around him but will fail unless the ping pong balls are especially kind. Forget LeBron James. There is less than a 3% chance of that happening. Players of that magnitude don't leave their teams via free agency. Ever. He will not get to the market. Chances are you can't name the last true superstar to leave his team via free agency. I hate this cap space argument. Cap space can't buy championships, sorry. Look at where cap space has gotten Charlotte and Atlanta. Orlando is now locked into mediocrity for the foreseeable future because of their ludicrous commitment to Rashard Lewis. Did the Spurs, Lakers, Mavs, Pistons, or Celtics build their teams through cap space? No. Teams are built through the draft and through trade. Cap space is useful for signing the 2nd tier players and the complementary players needed to take the next step, not for starting from scratch. Even if NJ had all the money in the world to spend, there is no guarantee that the player(s) they target would want to sign with them anyway. And really, who in their right mind would want to play for a pathetic franchise with no fans that's treading water until the move to Brooklyn anyway? Now, I'm not advocating piling up massive contracts and becoming the Knicks. Cap space is certainly good to have. I'm just saying that trying to build a team by getting as far under the cap as possible is a recipe for failure. The Nets may go that route to try and get LeBron James, but I'll bet all my marbles they won't get him. At the end of the day all that strategy will leave the Nets with is a bunch of unspent money, not the King. And that money will probably be spent later on overpaying 2nd tier players who won't put the team any closer to a championship. Anyway, now that I'm done with my rant, the Nets absolutely have to dump Jefferson. RJ is expired. He's past his usefulness. His numbers have gone up, but in reality his play has regressed since the sensational end of the '03-'04 season and beginning of the '04-'05 one. Jefferson is now just a trigger happy, defenseless wing with very limited ball handling skills and the inability to create his own shot or penetrate like he used to. Closing the book on NJ's glory years is the first step towards regaining competitiveness. Since everyone else has had their pipe dream, I think I'll give it a go now. If the Nets can somehow pry Turkoglu from Orlando, he would be the perfect complement to Devin Harris. He's got good size and is an excellent shooter with good ball handling skills and the ability to create his own shot, drive, run the floor, finish, and post up. He can make plays as well and can take some of the pressure off Harris. Obviously he benefits tremendously from the spacing that Dwight Howard's presence provides, but if the Nets were able to obtain him he would instantly improve the team's shooting and force opponents to play honest defense. How about Jefferson and a first round pick for Turkoglu and Tony Battie? Would Orlando do it? I doubt it considering they would be giving up their primary play maker and go to guy in the clutch, but I can dream. Hedo has 2 years left on his contract with a player option for the second year. He's probably going to want to cash in. This trade minimally affects the Magic's salary cap and Jefferson is a nice alternative to losing Turkoglu for nothing. They get a first round pick in the deal as well.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Mar 6 2008, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Isn't it obvious how to build a team around him? Play 4 guards!</div> Yeah, okay Lawrence Frank. Haha. Now, how would I build around Devin Harris..? Well, I'd grab a bunch of strong defense players, most of whom can run, some who could shoot the lights out, and a player who can score at will. Starting lineup? Well, Devin Harris to start out with. Then, the scorer/shooter at SG. At SF, I'd have a strong defensive player who can shoot very well, grab some steals, and who's fast and athletic. At PF, I'd have a good, athletic, fast, quick shotblocker/rebounder. And at C, I'd have a strong defensive player who can body up against good big men, block some shots, rebound, and who's not slow as molasses. Off the bench, definitely need one or two lights out shooters on the wings (one of which is a veteran shooter); a down low player who can score and create for himself (yet is not a complete liability on defense); a multipositional player (preferable who can play positions 2-4) who is athletic, good defensively...maybe of the Jamario Moon type; a lockdown defender; a PG capable of running the offense; and a good veteran. The starting lineup would run. Fast break offense, with a scorer who can be used in the half court; to go along with good defense, steals, blocks, rebounds to get the fast break started. Please pick apart my idea, because all of this is coming off the top of my head and I probably have no clue what I'm talking about.
I'm not sold on running Devin as a 2 guard. As a SG he'd be pretty one dimensional in our offense, because he's at his best with the ball in his hands; cutting to the basket or pulling up for a three; not coming off a screen for a catch-and-shoot. Plus until Vince leaves, this is really a moot point regarding significant minutes. Once he does leave, and there's an opportunity to start both Devin and Marcus (provided of course no SG draft or FA signing gets in the way, which is, however, a decent possibility) I'd prefer to start Marcus at SG. He's the one who's demonstrated the better ability to catch-and-shoot along with drive to the basket; albeit not as well as Devin, and certainly his game makes him a glorified combo-guard and not a true SG.
Trading Vince Carter should be priority number one. Getting Harris for Kidd means getting younger. I would be open to trading Richard Jefferson, but completely against giving him away for nothing. Either compile draft picks and hope you get lucky, or compile expirings/quality young players in hopes of making a trade. The Nets need to take chances. But it can happen. The Nets now have more young talent than the Celtics did at this point last year. Once they deal Carter (and Jefferson, if possible) they need to find another scorer. If you want to have a guy like Lebron James come to your team, you should probably get a little scoring so that he isn't worried about facing triple teams the entire game. The Coach and Front Office need to figure what they are doing with the bigs outside of Boone. They aren't going to be able to afford to pay and play Krstic, SWAT, and Diop with Boone. And I would do everything I could to draft Eric Gordon from IU
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Mar 6 2008, 03:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not sold on running Devin as a 2 guard. As a SG he'd be pretty one dimensional in our offense, because he's at his best with the ball in his hands; cutting to the basket or pulling up for a three; not coming off a screen for a catch-and-shoot. Plus until Vince leaves, this is really a moot point regarding significant minutes. Once he does leave, and there's an opportunity to start both Devin and Marcus (provided of course no SG draft or FA signing gets in the way, which is, however, a decent possibility) I'd prefer to start Marcus at SG. He's the one who's demonstrated the better ability to catch-and-shoot along with drive to the basket; albeit not as well as Devin, and certainly his game makes him a glorified combo-guard and not a true SG.</div> So you are comfortable with a future backcourt of Devin and Marcus as the starters?
I want to post in this thread but the responses are too long for my phone. New post for three quick thoughts.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 6 2008, 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Mar 6 2008, 03:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not sold on running Devin as a 2 guard. As a SG he'd be pretty one dimensional in our offense, because he's at his best with the ball in his hands; cutting to the basket or pulling up for a three; not coming off a screen for a catch-and-shoot. Plus until Vince leaves, this is really a moot point regarding significant minutes. Once he does leave, and there's an opportunity to start both Devin and Marcus (provided of course no SG draft or FA signing gets in the way, which is, however, a decent possibility) I'd prefer to start Marcus at SG. He's the one who's demonstrated the better ability to catch-and-shoot along with drive to the basket; albeit not as well as Devin, and certainly his game makes him a glorified combo-guard and not a true SG.</div> So you are comfortable with a future backcourt of Devin and Marcus as the starters? </div> Now? No. While I think that Marcus can get better (and am impressed that he's kept up a pretty steady level of play since the trade), he's not at the point where he's a starting guard in this league. On PG his decision making isn't there, and his shot isn't at the level I like for a starting SG. Doesn't mean he can't improve on one of these, but right now, no. Rather, if the Nets cannot draft a SG who can be a starter once Vince is gone, I would rather put Devin at point and Marcus at SG if that is the situation.
I sat around trying to figure this out, and I honestly have no idea. Basically, Thorn's gotta dump RJ and Vince for as much value as he can get out of them. It can happen at any point between now and next year's trade deadline. But he's gotta dump those two guys, and he's gotta get value back. I have no idea how those deals would go down, but once those assets are acquired, then I think we can start to talk about a long term plan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>ummm is this a trick question ? you don't. There is no way in hell you build your team around Devin Harris everything right now is about setting up the cap room and expiring contracts to get him</div> same thing I was thinking when I read the title of the thread..............I still don't see how people thinks this trade hurt the Mavs.....Harris is a nice piece, but he's no Jason Kidd (even at this stage in his career) when it comes to running the point..............he'll always be a solid role player........that's about it.
