We could use some more post scorers, we have some good bigs, but Krstic is the only one who can get more than garbage points. Also, Devin, Vince and RJ have recently shot worse than normal, I think they'll get better over time, as they learn to play together. People were saying VC and RJ can't play together, but that worked, Devin is another one, I have to imagine it'll just take some getting used to. Our rebounding has been poor as of late as well, Krstic has done better, but Boone worse. RJ seems to not be able to rebound anymore, and Devin isn't as good as Kidd at rebounding. I think we should just give the time to mesh, get a few new pieces, and if it doesn't work out next season, then we can start to worry.
I think Carter's injury was significantly limiting him pre-cortisone (in other words, pre January 29th). But I think he is close enough to 100% to still be plenty dangerous if utilized properly. Problem is, he isn't being utilized properly (nor is Harris, for that matter.) Frank apparently needs a ton of bricks to fall on him to realize that the surest way to get Vince scoring IN THE PAINT and going to the foul line early is to put him in the post. My God, he scored incredibly easy from that location in San Antonio on two early possessions. NEVER SAW IT the rest of the game. After a horrible start in Memphis, he scored from the post in the third. Never saw it again. He never got the ball once in the post against Dallas. In the spring of 04-05 when Vince had arguably the best stretch of his career, he started more games than not on the baselines, back to the basket, 10 feet and in. He was deadly from the post, and it's generally much easier from a physical standpoint for him to create for teammates from there than from the the top of the key (where Frank utilizes him almost exclusively as an initiator now). He doesn't have to put the same stress on the ankle, doesn't have to utilize quick stops and changes of direction as much, which result in more energy having to be applied and absorbed by the legs. It's so freaking obvious, yet WE NEVER SEE THIS NOW. WHY“ Yes, the team just made a major trade. Yes it's going to be very difficult trying to work in major players on the fly, especially a point guard. I also don't expect miracles when Boki Nachbar is your designated shooter. But many of Frank's offensive "sets" SUCK. Face it. They don't begin to produce anything close to high quality, rhythm shots, and don't think for a moment that that lack of "rhythm" to the Nets' sets isn't a significant factor in why they shoot such a low percentage. All 20 foot jump shots are not created equal. I cringed tonight when I saw Frank run that ridiculous play where the PG hands to Vince, who brings the ball to the left side, hands it to the 5 (Krstic, in this case), jogs through the lane, around a baseline screen and back out to grab the ball back from Krstic. What did this "play" accomplish? Let's see: it made Vince run an extra 15 steps and take an extra 8 seconds off the clock to wind up 20 feet from the hoop with no option except that which he might create on the fly under time pressure from that point on. And, of course, once wasn't enough for this great "set". They ran it AGAIN, with more abysmal results, the next time down. I don't really know what the deal is with Frank. He seems to know the game when you hear him speak about it. He can back up his observations with great detail and statistical foundation. He often draws up effective plays after time outs and usually does a decent job in last shot situations of getting the ball to the right player for a last second shot. But his offense, particularly last year and this year, just looks pathetic on the whole. Short answer, it's not all the players' fault. Not by a long shot.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Mar 9 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think Carter's injury was significantly limiting him pre-cortisone (in other words, pre January 29th). But I think he is close enough to 100% to still be plenty dangerous if utilized properly. Problem is, he isn't being utilized properly (nor is Harris, for that matter.) Frank apparently needs a ton of bricks to fall on him to realize that the surest way to get Vince scoring IN THE PAINT and going to the foul line early is to put him in the post. My God, he scored incredibly easy from that location in San Antonio on two early possessions. NEVER SAW IT the rest of the game. After a horrible start in Memphis, he scored from the post in the third. Never saw it again. He never got the ball once in the post against Dallas. In the spring of 04-05 when Vince had arguably the best stretch of his career, he started more games than not on the baselines, back to the basket, 10 feet and in. He was deadly from the post, and it's generally much easier from a physical standpoint for him to create for teammates from there than from the the top of the key (where Frank utilizes him almost exclusively as an initiator now). He doesn't have to put the same stress on the ankle, doesn't have to utilize quick stops and changes of direction as much, which result in more energy having to be applied and absorbed by the legs. It's so freaking obvious, yet WE NEVER SEE THIS NOW. WHY“ Yes, the team just made a major trade. Yes it's going to be very difficult trying to work in major players on the fly, especially a point guard. I also don't expect miracles when Boki Nachbar is your designated shooter. But many of Frank's offensive "sets" SUCK. Face it. They don't begin to produce anything close to high quality, rhythm shots, and don't think for a moment that that lack of "rhythm" to the Nets' sets isn't a significant factor in why they shoot such a low percentage. All 20 foot jump shots are not created equal. I cringed tonight when I saw Frank run that ridiculous play where the PG hands to Vince, who brings the ball to the left side, hands it to the 5 (Krstic, in this case), jogs through the lane, around a baseline screen and back out to grab the ball back from Krstic. What did this "play" accomplish? Let's see: it made Vince run an extra 15 steps and take an extra 8 seconds off the clock to wind up 20 feet from the hoop with no option except that which he might create on the fly under time pressure from that point on. And, of course, once wasn't enough for this great "set". They ran it AGAIN, with more abysmal results, the next time down. I don't really know what the deal is with Frank. He seems to know the game when you hear him speak about it. He can back up his observations with great detail and statistical foundation. He often draws up effective plays after time outs and usually does a decent job in last shot situations of getting the ball to the right player for a last second shot. But his offense, particularly last year and this year, just looks pathetic on the whole. Short answer, it's not all the players' fault. Not by a long shot.</div> Putting Carter in the post is an excellent idea. It won't work in all situations, but it does make sense to get Carter closer to the basket. He does look better after the cortisone shot, but looks far from 100% to me. He doesn't seem to get as good elevation as he used to on many of his jump shots for example. But reducing the stress on Carter's ankle and the energy he expends is a good idea. The motion offense probably has to go, although it may be difficult to change midseason.
Frank runs no semblance of a motion offense, he should honestly look into going to a coaching clinic or just have Thorn and KiKi bring in someone who will help him a REAL lead assistant
Our Off. scheme is rediculous. I've said it before, our low post get no touches to keep the def. honest, and our outside shooting is horrid. This "motion" Off. has no motion on it other then our bigs setting high picks so that rj can commit more charges. The Offence is nothing but players taking one on one and iso's and the only player who is actually good at that is vince. We suck, face it, Frank pull your head outa your a** and start strying to develope your other guys and don't sit Sean Williams every time he does somthing wrong, because you don't sit your starters after they commit stupid plays, and the chances are are at least one of your guys in rj or vince will be gone next season so please at least TRY to develope our young players.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 9 2008, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This is a bad team on paper and on the floor. 1) They have no player with a burning desire to win 2) Their best offensive player is significantly hampered by injury 3) They are lacking players that other teams have to respect on the perimeter</div> Ding ding ding!!! Our "superstar" tends to remind me of the kid on your little league team who doesn't really want to play, but is there every year because his dad keeps signing him up. Vince doesn't care if he wins or loses. He'll try sometimes... but not nearly often enough, and not nearly hard enough. Injuries schminjuries. Other than his first season here and his first years in the league, 90% of all the play by play during Vince games is about how he needs to attack the basket more. Wanna get fucked up? Make a drinking game out of every time Marv and/or Mark and/or Sparky mention Vince's name and things like "needs to be more aggressive" and "attack the rim" and "bad shot" and "settling" and so on. This is just Vince Carter basketball, like it or not. And, because of the injuries, and because of his not-so-gradual decline in athletic ability... this just becomes worse and worse by the season. Combine this with his overall lack of burning desire to, ya know, win... and the fact that he's your team's "guy," and the result is one horrible ****ing basketball team. Which of course, is exactly what we have. And RJ... he's a shitty first option, and a shitty second option. He's an alright 3rd option though, especially on a running team... neither of which is true right now. This only adds to the reasons why we suck. And, just for added fun, neither guy plays defense. I have a vague memory of RJ locking down the other teams best player on a fairly consistent basis. I must have dreamed that or something. I think I can also remember a time when RJ took less jumpers than Vince. Heck, I think it may even have been this season. Nope, must have dreamed that too. These are our current leaders/superstars/go-to-guys, mind you. Oh, and I might think the coach sucks too. At first I wasn't sure and leaned more towards being pro-coach and anti-players, now I'm still anti-players, but leaning more towards anti-coach. This may be because he does a lot (more so this season than ever before) of dumb shit, but it also may be because I'm so annoyed at watching this team that I just want to start fresh. Get rid of everything left over from the Kidd era (which would include Frank, RJ and Vince), and start a new era. The Boone Era, The Williams Era (this could double as two guy's eras, which is a bonus for the marketing guys), The Devin Era... I don't give a shit whose era it is, I just want something new. Keep the young guys, bring in a coach better suited for coaching/developing young guys and actually understands offense, bring in some good parts that actually compliment each other (as in, don't surround Jason Kidd with guys who don't ****ing run, you idiots), maybe try that whole defensive minded running team again. Guys like Devin and Sean are good pieces for building that type of team. What's the worst that can happen? We end up sucking slightly less than we sucked this season and we are 50 times more fun to watch?
This team needs shooters, BADLY! The offense is so hard to watch since other teams know they don't have to respect anyone on the perimeter besides RJ and Vince. There's a reason why LeBron is so effective in creating for teammates and picking up assists, because him GM was smart enough to surround him with shooters.
i think we should try a variation of Memphis's offensive scheme...The Memphis Attack the basis of the offensive is that perimeter players spread the ball around and the PG drives to the bucket for either a layup or to kick it out after the defense collapses...Would work well with Harris, and probably would fit Krstic and his 15 footer. The Memphis attack is tied to the Princeton offense and could actually be used to change the scheme depending on the players on the court at any given time...Also would like to see us incorporate some aspects of the triangle... Ideally what I would like to see is a coach come in here an examine our depth and try to make set units...these units would all be players who would run different sets of a specialized offense...some days we'd slow it down utilizing more of a triangle, other days more Princeton, and other days an all out Memphis attack...maybe even a little Nellie Ball. Basically teaching loose fundamentals of several offenses which allow the team to use matchups that best expose other teams weaknesses...it would innovative, but will probably never happen.
To make a long story short, they both suck, the team and the coach Complete overhaul thats what we need, players with desire to win and passion, not this baffoons@
For next season I hope the Nets look to do these things: 1) Try to land a marquee bigman. 2) Get shooters. 3) Get a new coach who can get the players to buy into something in training camp and preseason and be ready to go from day one of the season and be really good on at least one end of the floor and decent on the other end and gradually improve from there.
I hate how the coach doesn't know how to make ingame adjustments. He seems to run the same play everytime, bring up the ball, set up vince / rj in the post, let them create down in the post and they end up kicking out to someone who can't shoot because THEY are the shooters of the team, or taking a bad jumpshot due to a double team. I havn't seen the pick and roll that boone runs so well at all lately. Seems like every play there is a "ballstopper" as lawrence frnak would put it because his offense just blows. There is no motion, and I think this contributes to the whole identity thing. He draws plays that totally stop our offense. Also, why are all our big guys taking jumpshots and no one posting, i see swift taking jumpers all the time because VC/RJ have no one else to kick it out too. Then there's the zone defense that kills us apparently that we have no answer for. I also don't get his substitutions, seems like frank still doesn't know what he wants to do so he just puts people in hoping something good might happen. He says he uses the lineups to adjust to different teams... how come we can never make the other team adjust to us.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danxcr @ Mar 9 2008, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>umm #3 should be our first priority... GET A NEW COACH then everything else will fall into place</div> I'm not happy with Frank leading this team, but it's definitely not that easy. Based on everything you've seen from the Nets this year I don't think you can say it's that easy; "falling into place" is a bit of a stretch.
Most of you that think this team is good are in denial. Granted the coach is not great, but neither is the collection of talent. The shooters on this team are too streaky, the star players are wings(meaning there is no respectable player in the paint), and the bigs cannot create their own shot. Even if you have all those types of players, it then depends on the coach and the type of character the players present. For example, take a look at the Knicks and you see that they do have great talent at almost every position, shooters and bigs; however the players cannot get along and refuse to play organized basketball respectfully. Also, the coach is completely terrible. Seriously, I am getting sick and tired of posters on this board trying to play the blame game. Accept the fact that we just started rebuilding.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unstop @ Mar 9 2008, 09:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 9 2008, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This is a bad team on paper and on the floor. 1) They have no player with a burning desire to win 2) Their best offensive player is significantly hampered by injury 3) They are lacking players that other teams have to respect on the perimeter</div> Ding ding ding!!! Our "superstar" tends to remind me of the kid on your little league team who doesn't really want to play, but is there every year because his dad keeps signing him up. Vince doesn't care if he wins or loses. He'll try sometimes... but not nearly often enough, and not nearly hard enough. Injuries schminjuries. Other than his first season here and his first years in the league, 90% of all the play by play during Vince games is about how he needs to attack the basket more. Wanna get fucked up? Make a drinking game out of every time Marv and/or Mark and/or Sparky mention Vince's name and things like "needs to be more aggressive" and "attack the rim" and "bad shot" and "settling" and so on. This is just Vince Carter basketball, like it or not. And, because of the injuries, and because of his not-so-gradual decline in athletic ability... this just becomes worse and worse by the season. Combine this with his overall lack of burning desire to, ya know, win... and the fact that he's your team's "guy," and the result is one horrible ****ing basketball team. Which of course, is exactly what we have. And RJ... he's a shitty first option, and a shitty second option. He's an alright 3rd option though, especially on a running team... neither of which is true right now. This only adds to the reasons why we suck. And, just for added fun, neither guy plays defense. I have a vague memory of RJ locking down the other teams best player on a fairly consistent basis. I must have dreamed that or something. I think I can also remember a time when RJ took less jumpers than Vince. Heck, I think it may even have been this season. Nope, must have dreamed that too. These are our current leaders/superstars/go-to-guys, mind you. Oh, and I might think the coach sucks too. At first I wasn't sure and leaned more towards being pro-coach and anti-players, now I'm still anti-players, but leaning more towards anti-coach. This may be because he does a lot (more so this season than ever before) of dumb shit, but it also may be because I'm so annoyed at watching this team that I just want to start fresh. Get rid of everything left over from the Kidd era (which would include Frank, RJ and Vince), and start a new era. The Boone Era, The Williams Era (this could double as two guy's eras, which is a bonus for the marketing guys), The Devin Era... I don't give a shit whose era it is, I just want something new. Keep the young guys, bring in a coach better suited for coaching/developing young guys and actually understands offense, bring in some good parts that actually compliment each other (as in, don't surround Jason Kidd with guys who don't ****ing run, you idiots), maybe try that whole defensive minded running team again. Guys like Devin and Sean are good pieces for building that type of team. What's the worst that can happen? We end up sucking slightly less than we sucked this season and we are 50 times more fun to watch? </div> I agree with about 90% of this post. I mean, there's a reason no Vince Carter team has ever won 50 games in a season. You can blame the coaches/other players all you want - but you would think a "franchise player" would get to 50 wins once in 10 years. I'm also leaning towards the anti-coach sentiment, too. I think Frank is very smart, but the team probably needs a completely clean slate. But my fear is the "coaching carousel" that rebuilding teams get into. If you are thinking about worst-case-scenarios, see Golden State 1994-2006 - where they had 9 different coaches. I don't want to wait until I'm 35 for the Nets to make the playoffs again.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Mar 9 2008, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danxcr @ Mar 9 2008, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>umm #3 should be our first priority... GET A NEW COACH then everything else will fall into place</div> I'm not happy with Frank leading this team, but it's definitely not that easy. Based on everything you've seen from the Nets this year I don't think you can say it's that easy; "falling into place" is a bit of a stretch. </div> well... if we get a coach that can actually inspire these players to play its so sad too see the nets in this state... i mean... we have the talent to compete... CMON GUYS!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danxcr @ Mar 10 2008, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Mar 9 2008, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danxcr @ Mar 9 2008, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>umm #3 should be our first priority... GET A NEW COACH then everything else will fall into place</div> I'm not happy with Frank leading this team, but it's definitely not that easy. Based on everything you've seen from the Nets this year I don't think you can say it's that easy; "falling into place" is a bit of a stretch. </div> well... if we get a coach that can actually inspire these players to play its so sad too see the nets in this state... i mean... we have the talent to compete... CMON GUYS! </div> Inspire??? Pop doesn't inspire players. The Nets may have talent to compete, but they don't have talent to win. It is on the front office, not the coaching staff.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (insider @ Mar 10 2008, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thorn is in denial with the Frank situation. The teams fine, not the coach.</div> Although its evident that Frank's skims are ineffective and in many ways amateur and uncreative. Thorn is going to keep being in denial about Lawrence Frank or else it comes down for Bruce Ratner, remeber Thorn extended Frank's contract to a 2 years 8.6 mill, if he pushes for Frank's ousting, it proves two things, Kidd had more to say in the organization than it was lead on to be and second in the eyes of Ratner, Thorn just wasted 8.6 mill on a bad coach.
