Link to the MP3. Among other things: * Gross mismanagement of player development. Noah and Deng have, for instance, hired their own guys to work on things the coaches won't work on them with. * Kirk, Ben and Tyrus are among the many who resent the fact that Gooden and Hughes were basically given big jobs. * Tyrus is lazy jerk whose gone into a shell. * Deng wants out this summer.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Mar 25 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>* Kirk, Ben and Tyrus are among the many who resent the fact that Gooden and Hughes were basically given big jobs.</div> Yeah, players that have played at high levels for another team should be put at the bottom of the pecking order when they arrive on a new team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 25 2008, 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Mar 25 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>* Kirk, Ben and Tyrus are among the many who resent the fact that Gooden and Hughes were basically given big jobs.</div> Yeah, players that have played at high levels for another team should be put at the bottom of the pecking order when they arrive on a new team. </div> While I understand and agree to an extent, your point is sort of mitigated by 1. The fact we're talking about Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden. 2. The fact the Bulls have promoted exactly that sort of "work hard and pay your dues" mentality. They just haven't operated by it when they haven't felt like it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Mar 25 2008, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 25 2008, 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Mar 25 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>* Kirk, Ben and Tyrus are among the many who resent the fact that Gooden and Hughes were basically given big jobs.</div> Yeah, players that have played at high levels for another team should be put at the bottom of the pecking order when they arrive on a new team. </div> While I understand and agree to an extent, your point is sort of mitigated by 1. The fact we're talking about Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden. 2. The fact the Bulls have promoted exactly that sort of "work hard and pay your dues" mentality. They just haven't operated by it when they haven't felt like it. </div> How many other players on he Bulls roster have averaged 22 PPG for a season? How many other players on the Bulls roster have averaged 9 RPG for a season? Work hard and pay your dues is not something that should never apply to established veterans acquired in a mid-season trade.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 25 2008, 05:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Mar 25 2008, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 25 2008, 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Mar 25 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>* Kirk, Ben and Tyrus are among the many who resent the fact that Gooden and Hughes were basically given big jobs.</div> Yeah, players that have played at high levels for another team should be put at the bottom of the pecking order when they arrive on a new team. </div> While I understand and agree to an extent, your point is sort of mitigated by 1. The fact we're talking about Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden. 2. The fact the Bulls have promoted exactly that sort of "work hard and pay your dues" mentality. They just haven't operated by it when they haven't felt like it. </div> How many other players on he Bulls roster have averaged 22 PPG for a season? How many other players on the Bulls roster have averaged 9 RPG for a season? Work hard and pay your dues is not something that should never apply to established veterans acquired in a mid-season trade. </div> I'm gonna have to argue and agree with both of you on different points. For one thing, Gooden is the best player on the Bulls at rebounding, and is their best source of scoring in the post. Noah, Tyrus, Gray, and Simmons all suck. Gooden should be a starter, getting 35+ minutes. And Larry Hughes is nothing but a streetball player, a chucker, who plays subpar "reach" defense, and can't be counted on to run a controlled offense. Eddie Jordan worked wonders with him. That's why he's one of the best coaches in the NBA.
I'm with cpawfan on this. These guys did pay their dues, just for another team. They paid them for a short while coming off the bench for the Bulls until they earned the coach's trust.
I agree on Gooden as well. In any case there, the Bulls were moving out 2 frontcourt guys anyway. Tyrus' would be getting PT if he was any good. But I don't see what Hughes has accomplished that makes him superior to Gordon or Hinrich. I'd take either of them over Hughes, and yet somehow he's surpassed them on the depth chart. It reminds me very much of when Sweetney first came here and the Bulls insisted on playing him long past the point it was obvious he hurt them on the court. It's nice, I guess, to try and justify trades, but ultimately they'd be better off playing their best players the most and worrying about the other crap later.
When I see Hughes on the court, he's the Bulls best guard by a longshot, and probably their best wing player, period. His FG% isn't where we'd like it, but 4APG and near 2SPG are more than decent. As cpawfan pointed out, he's scored more than Gordon in their best seasons, and he's made the all-defensive team at the other end of the court.
What can we get for Hughes and Tyrus? Maybe Stephon Marbury's expiring from the Knicks. Bogut and Simmons I think Bogut would be a great pick for us. Do a draft day deal, where we give them our draft pick as well. PG-Kirk Hinrich/Thabo Sefolosha SG-Ben Gordon/Thabo Sefolosha SF-Luol Deng/Andres Nocion PF-Drew Gooden/Joakim Noah C- Andrew Bogut/Joakim Noah/Aaron Gray Not sure how the rotation shakes out entirely there. Noah isn't a starting caliber big, he should be a backup like Varejao. Gooden and Bogut is a good big, strong frontcourt. Go back to what worked, and make this a Hinrich-Gordon-Deng run team. This of course is with a new coach that isn't a joke like Boylan is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Mar 25 2008, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>When I see Hughes on the court, he's the Bulls best guard by a longshot, and probably their best wing player, period. His FG% isn't where we'd like it, but 4APG and near 2SPG are more than decent. As cpawfan pointed out, he's scored more than Gordon in their best seasons, and he's made the all-defensive team at the other end of the court.</div> Player X was better three years ago than player Y, so therefore he must still be better. Uh... no. Ben Wallace's best seasons were way better than anything he did with the Bulls. So far, that's true of Hughes as well. Both Hinrich and Gordon have played better than him since he arrived. For that matter, they've played better than him for the last couple of years.
Unlike Wallace, Hughe's stats show no sign of decline, and he's not even 30 years old (same age as Kobe). Hughes' stats have actually improved since coming to the Bulls, this season. What you see of Hughes is without the benefit of summer camp or the coach getting the chance to design plays around the talent the Bulls currently have.
The fact that the Cavs had to take on Ben Wallace (and give up Drew Gooden) to get rid of Hughes should speak volumes of what he's doing. Since he came here: 14.1 PPG (38.9 FG%) 3.5 RPG 3.9 APG 1.8 SPG in 32 minutes Gordon: 17.3 PPG (46.0 FG%) 2.8 RPG 3.4 APG 1.0 SPG in 29 minutes Hinrich: 8.4 PPG (41.8 FG%) 3.5 RPG 6.1 APG in 28 minutes Sefolosha: 7.4 PPG (44.4 FG%) 2.8 RPG 1.9 APG in 22 minutes. So not only has Hughes not played well, he's made all of our other guards play worse. We need to cut out Hughes/Tyrus and replace them with a center...that way Gordon, Hinrich, and Sefolosha all get their minutes. Gooden is definitely a keeper though.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Mar 26 2008, 10:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Unlike Wallace, Hughe's stats show no sign of decline, and he's not even 30 years old (same age as Kobe).</div> <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>SeaTmQualityGPMin/PGS.ProdCarDiffTIEREffT48 2007CHI6th Man5630.738.98-1.884-5.2914.89 2006CLEStarter7037.1012.281.423-6.7914.24 2005CLEStarter3635.5812.101.244-5.2715.75 2004WASStar6138.6619.919.052-2.3525.61 2003WASStarter6133.7910.15-0.713-3.4818.16 2002WASStarter6731.8812.771.913-1.5717.67 2001GSW6th Man7328.089.18-1.684-2.6418.80 2000GSW6th Man5036.929.18-1.674-11.4716.29 1999GSWRole8228.347.21-3.654-6.2416.16 1998PHIRole5019.767.44-3.4232.3516.85</div> On the contrary, Hughes has dramatically declined from his one really high quality season. In my rating system, look at his season productivity value (S.Prod) and his per 48 minutes value (T48). The furthest column to the right shows his per 48 minute productivity in my rating system. He fell off pretty dramatically from his top notch season, and fell off again after that. I suppose he's up a little bit this year, but it's by a very marginal amount. guys in the 14-15 range generally aren't starting players. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Hughes' stats have actually improved since coming to the Bulls, this season.</div> Yes, but not as much as you'd think. Over the past 10 games, let's look at the same stats for the Bulls guards: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>PlayerQualityGPMPGS.ProdCar DiffTIEREffT48 gordon,benMStar1030.2017.345.7424.8726.85 duhon,chrisStarter126.0013.644.1254.3124.48 hinrich,kirkStarter930.8913.45-1.285-0.5820.20 hughes,larryStarter1032.1011.490.443-1.7916.48 sefolosha,thaboRole619.677.463.6442.4217.49 brown,shannonFringe/IL44.00-0.95-2.1554.47-12.07</div> So what I see is the Hughes is playing the most minutes per game and is the least productive on a per minute basis. In fact, he's also the least productive (vs. Gordon and Hinrich) on an absolute basis. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>What you see of Hughes is without the benefit of summer camp or the coach getting the chance to design plays around the talent the Bulls currently have.</div> Perhaps, but at best he's significantly less effective than he was in his four best seasons or so.
Back to the bigger picture. In the podcast, the suggestion is the only hope for the Bulls is to get a coach in to magically fix all this, but when I look at these problems, they're problems of management, not coaching. If you've let a situation go on for two coaches now in which players are trying to improve and not getting help, that's a problem of management. If you've drafted a guy knowing he was surly and prone to not handling pressure well, but you didn't do anything special to create a supportive environment for him, then that's a problem of management. If you've got players who are known for being good guys who try their ass off, and they're consistently exhibiting disrespect for their coach, you've hired a truly horrible coach and then let him negatively impact the team. In Bulls fandom people often talk about how bringing in the wrong element could harm players' attitudes. Like, bringing in a Zach Randolph or Stephon Marbury type might be a like bringing in a team cancer and a huge mistake. Well, what's a team cancer if it's not Jim Boylan? He's got to be up there with guys like Marbury when it comes to turning a team's attitude in the wrong direction. Just like we'd say it's a mistake by management to bring in a team cancer of a player, it's certainly a mistake to bring in a team cancer of a coach. That's a problem of management. So add it up, and I don't see how this problem really gets fixed without new management. There are guys out there, like Donnie Walsh, who know what they're doing. Why not pick him up?
I don't think we need new management, just a new coach. Avery Johnson is the guy to watch. If he gets fired, we need to offer him the money and bring him in. The assertion that our coaching staff isn't developing players (From Ben Wallace, Joakim Noah, and Luol Deng), and the fact that we have gym rats in Gordon and Deng, both of who were able to reach a fringe star status without development help from a coaching staff...what could they do if they had a proper coach. My dream coaching staff would be: Head Coach- Avery Johnson Assistants: Scottie Pippen Randy Livingston Bill Cartwright Toni Kukoc As the basis. Get rid of jokes like Boylan, Adams, Myers. Time to move on from this failure of a coaching staff, and fire everyone. (Except maybe Mike Brown). Lets just keep hoping the Mavericks manage to miss the playoffs, and Cuban does a very stupid thing.
DC, I attribute Hughes' dropoff from his last season in D.C. to being a poor fit in Cleveland. He clearly worked well with one of the league's best scorers as a back court mate, but when forced to play PG, not only was he unhappy, he didn't live up to expectations. Looking at your past 10 games numbers, everyone on the list but Hughes seems to be playing much better because Hughes is getting his 32 minutes/game. Gordon T48 = 26+, for example. As for the lack of decline, with Wallace, you could look at three or four straight seasons and interpolate pretty much where he is today. If you interpolated Hughes' numbers, you'd be off - especially seeing his numbers with the Bulls. If you think he's so bad and his contract makes him that much worse for the team, would you want to take Ben Wallace back to get rid of Hughes? LOL, I didn't think so
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Mar 26 2008, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>DC, I attribute Hughes' dropoff from his last season in D.C. to being a poor fit in Cleveland.</div> To what would you attribute the fact that his last season in DC was a major outlier from his production in prior seasons as well. Although he was slightly better before than he's been since, he wasn't anything special. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Looking at your past 10 games numbers, everyone on the list but Hughes seems to be playing much better because Hughes is getting his 32 minutes/game. Gordon T48 = 26+, for example.</div> I'd have to go back and regather the data for the 10 games prior to the trade, but my recollection is that Thabo, Duhon, Gordon and Hinrich were playing at similar levels over the 10 games or so before Hughes was acquired. In short, they were getting back to the sort of production they usually achieved. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As for the lack of decline, with Wallace, you could look at three or four straight seasons and interpolate pretty much where he is today. If you interpolated Hughes' numbers, you'd be off - especially seeing his numbers with the Bulls.</div> I disagree. Draw a trendline through Hughes' numbers and you get something like this: Sure, due to his age there's some hope he'll rebound a bit, but there really wasn't a consistent high level of play there in the first place. There was one really good season and a bunch of mediocre ones. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If you think he's so bad and his contract makes him that much worse for the team, would you want to take Ben Wallace back to get rid of Hughes? LOL, I didn't think so </div> Beside the point. The question is how to maximize the guys they got now. And Hinrich and Gordon are better players. As a long run proposition, Thabo might be as well.
And Wallace's graph would look like a chart of the price of Bear Stearns' stock at the time we signed him. Thabo? 6.7 PPG, 1.7 APG, 41.4% FG. Of course he should play over Hughes! I obviously don't think so, and it's nuts to really suggest it. Kirk? The guy's a 41% career FG shooter, as is Hughes. We know what Hughes can do in the right system, and I think we've seen Kirk's ceiling. Hughes has been a better player for us since we got him than Kirk this season. Gordon? The team's view seems to be that he's one dimensional, instant offense type off the bench. I have gripes with Boylan, for sure. One of the biggest ones is that he's not playing Hughes MORE. We obviously don't have a LeBron, but we do have 2 guys on the team who've made it past the 2nd round and started on those teams. Or we can bench those two and let the guys who are challenged to win 30 games with/without the new guys. It seems like we should blow up the team this summer in some form, and it only makes sense to see what the new guys can do. OT: Knicks have won just one game in March. Ouch. But look at the month of February that Jamal Crawford had, January, too. And he's having a better season than any of our guards but Gordon. Career best for him.
