<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Mar 28 2008, 04:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Missionaries have been shipped all over the world in an attempt to convert people, especially in poorer nations. That has been going on for centuries, even at the behest of local governments. The Crusades.... Jihad.... Latter-Day Saints folks ringing my doorbell at dinnertime, sigh.</div> You forgot Jehovah's Witnesses.... They are the most annoying & I speak from personal experience.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Mar 29 2008, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>^ The Hebrew text of the Pentateuch has remained unchanged for over 2,000 years, and there is no serious dispute that Exodus in particular was a core of that. On Denny's point about Old Testament wars, saying that they were supposedly won without divine aid is antithetical to the recounting of the wars. It is an article of faith that every war the Jews ever won was primarily through divine intervention - a reason given for denying that Shimon Bar Kochba could have been the Messiah was that he claimed to be able to defeat the Romans without divine aid. Getting back to the plagues, if you read carefully, you'll see that while the Egyptian priests were able to duplicate the early ones, a crucial part of the story is that they were unable to replicate the later plagues. The progression is very deliberate, even in translation. As for the slavery itself, a mid-range viewpoint is expressed by the subject here: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3235112,00.html I should add that the Ten Commandments, excellent movie that it was, is about as accurate a retelling of Exodus as the movie Braveheart is regarding the paternity of King Edward II's son.</div> The Bible doesn't recount all the wars. Though there were entire nations wiped out who appeared in the Bible but silently disappeared.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Mar 29 2008, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I should add that the Ten Commandments, excellent movie that it was, is about as accurate a retelling of Exodus as the movie Braveheart is regarding the paternity of King Edward II's son.</div> Agreed. I was using the movie as a reference point to add my 2 cents about what allegedly happened in Exodus. Besides, when has Hollywood ever been about anything except reality distortion?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blackadder @ Mar 29 2008, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Mar 29 2008, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I should add that the Ten Commandments, excellent movie that it was, is about as accurate a retelling of Exodus as the movie Braveheart is regarding the paternity of King Edward II's son.</div> Agreed. I was using the movie as a reference point to add my 2 cents about what allegedly happened in Exodus. Besides, when has Hollywood ever been about anything except reality distortion? </div> At least Cecil B DeMille tried to create grandeur, rather than pandering like oh so many recent Hollywood films...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Mar 29 2008, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Mar 29 2008, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>^ The Hebrew text of the Pentateuch has remained unchanged for over 2,000 years, and there is no serious dispute that Exodus in particular was a core of that. On Denny's point about Old Testament wars, saying that they were supposedly won without divine aid is antithetical to the recounting of the wars. It is an article of faith that every war the Jews ever won was primarily through divine intervention - a reason given for denying that Shimon Bar Kochba could have been the Messiah was that he claimed to be able to defeat the Romans without divine aid. Getting back to the plagues, if you read carefully, you'll see that while the Egyptian priests were able to duplicate the early ones, a crucial part of the story is that they were unable to replicate the later plagues. The progression is very deliberate, even in translation. As for the slavery itself, a mid-range viewpoint is expressed by the subject here: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3235112,00.html I should add that the Ten Commandments, excellent movie that it was, is about as accurate a retelling of Exodus as the movie Braveheart is regarding the paternity of King Edward II's son.</div> The Bible doesn't recount all the wars. Though there were entire nations wiped out who appeared in the Bible but silently disappeared. </div> The Bible - and for me that includes the Pentateuch, Prophets, Writings and accompanying Oral Law that was later codified as the Talmud - lists the wars that the Jews were involved in, though that certainly doesn't mean all the wars that took place in the region. Generally, when nations simply disappeared from the Biblical text, it was due to factors that simply had little to do with the Jews, and therefore little value for Judaism.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Mar 29 2008, 09:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>^ The Hebrew text of the Pentateuch has remained unchanged for over 2,000 years, and there is no serious dispute that Exodus in particular was a core of that. On Denny's point about Old Testament wars, saying that they were supposedly won without divine aid is antithetical to the recounting of the wars. It is an article of faith that every war the Jews ever won was primarily through divine intervention - a reason given for denying that Shimon Bar Kochba could have been the Messiah was that he claimed to be able to defeat the Romans without divine aid. Getting back to the plagues, if you read carefully, you'll see that while the Egyptian priests were able to duplicate the early ones, a crucial part of the story is that they were unable to replicate the later plagues. The progression is very deliberate, even in translation. As for the slavery itself, a mid-range viewpoint is expressed by the subject here: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3235112,00.html I should add that the Ten Commandments, excellent movie that it was, is about as accurate a retelling of Exodus as the movie Braveheart is regarding the paternity of King Edward II's son.</div> How interesting. The Romans go to war with the Jews, and God is "taking sides" by using divine intervention for the Jews. One of the Ten Commandments says that people should not kill, yet its ok to kill every man woman and child in this situation. We have just slipped into the "someone who wrote that was obviously BS-ing" zone of conversation now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Mar 29 2008, 10:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blackadder @ Mar 29 2008, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Mar 29 2008, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I should add that the Ten Commandments, excellent movie that it was, is about as accurate a retelling of Exodus as the movie Braveheart is regarding the paternity of King Edward II's son.</div> Agreed. I was using the movie as a reference point to add my 2 cents about what allegedly happened in Exodus. Besides, when has Hollywood ever been about anything except reality distortion? </div> At least Cecil B DeMille tried to create grandeur, rather than pandering like oh so many recent Hollywood films... </div> LOL You guys are splitting hairs here. It really doesn't matter whose version you are looking at, all versions are exaggerated twists on historical events with supernatural thrown in for good measure. You are talking about content from the Bible, and claiming that the stories have been distorted on the big screen. I tend to believe that the stories within the Bible have already been exaggerated, and Hollywood had very little editting to do.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Mar 31 2008, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Mar 29 2008, 09:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>^ The Hebrew text of the Pentateuch has remained unchanged for over 2,000 years, and there is no serious dispute that Exodus in particular was a core of that. On Denny's point about Old Testament wars, saying that they were supposedly won without divine aid is antithetical to the recounting of the wars. It is an article of faith that every war the Jews ever won was primarily through divine intervention - a reason given for denying that Shimon Bar Kochba could have been the Messiah was that he claimed to be able to defeat the Romans without divine aid. Getting back to the plagues, if you read carefully, you'll see that while the Egyptian priests were able to duplicate the early ones, a crucial part of the story is that they were unable to replicate the later plagues. The progression is very deliberate, even in translation. As for the slavery itself, a mid-range viewpoint is expressed by the subject here: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3235112,00.html I should add that the Ten Commandments, excellent movie that it was, is about as accurate a retelling of Exodus as the movie Braveheart is regarding the paternity of King Edward II's son.</div> How interesting. The Romans go to war with the Jews, and God is "taking sides" by using divine intervention for the Jews. One of the Ten Commandments says that people should not kill, yet its ok to kill every man woman and child in this situation. We have just slipped into the "someone who wrote that was obviously BS-ing" zone of conversation now. </div> Wrong. The Commandment actually refers to murder, which was never the same as killing per se. Moreover, the causing of another's death was a considerably developed part of the Jewish legal code, which preceded the 'creation' of tort law in England by two millennia. Just so you know, the Commandment about 'stealing' never meant normal thievery either, but rather kidnapping - which was a capital offense.
Interesting point about the Romans. Seems they kicked the Israelites' collective asses numerous times. No divine intervention in those cases. Masada comes to mind.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Mar 31 2008, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Interesting point about the Romans. Seems they kicked the Israelites' collective asses numerous times. No divine intervention in those cases. Masada comes to mind.</div> Some interesting things about that. First off, the guerrilla tactics employed by the various Jewish rebels necessitated more Roman legions to be stationed there than anywhere else other than Germany - with several such legions getting pretty badly beaten, at least temporarily. Nor should every Jewish war be considered a candidate for divine intervention. In fact, there were several gradations of wars, with only the Divinely Commanded War of Mitzvah being anywhere close to 'deserving' divine aid. As well, the Talmud is pretty critical of many of the Jewish rebels against the Romans, Bar Kochba among them - despite the support of his goals (and indeed, of his possible Messianic destiny) by the incomparable Rabbi Akiva. To that end, what I was taught in Yeshiva way back when was that the Zealots in Masada acted in direct contradiction to Judaism, and shouldn't be lauded for their collective murder/suicide. On the subject of Masada and the Bar Kochba revolt, I highly recommend the work of Yigael Yadin, though his books are archaeological rather than religious in nature and thrust. We did do better against the Greek phalanxes than the Roman legions though - no question about that. The kicker is that Judea invited the initial Roman presence in the wake of the successful Hasmonean rebellion against the Seleucids, in order to prevent being swallowed up right away by either the Seleucids or the Ptolemies. It didn't turn out as well as we'd hoped though - obviously.
