Jizzy: I wouldn't trade Boone. We haven't had a double-double guy in a long time (Krstic +1 year ago wasn't quite the tenacious rebounder Boone is), let alone one who fits the system this well or is that young. Netted: Solid idea, although I think there are better fits than Arthur. I'd draft Pekovic, or Hansbrough over him, heck even Jason Thompson looks interesting. However this could be a moot point if the Mavs don't make the playoffs; this pick would get moved to next year. As for a 2nd round PG, Sean Singletary would be a guy I'd take a chance on.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Apr 2 2008, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jizzy: I wouldn't trade Boone. We haven't had a double-double guy in a long time (Krstic +1 year ago wasn't quite the tenacious rebounder Boone is), let alone one who fits the system this well or is that young. Netted: Solid idea, although I think there are better fits than Arthur. I'd draft Pekovic, or Hansbrough over him, heck even Jason Thompson looks interesting. However this could be a moot point if the Mavs don't make the playoffs; this pick would get moved to next year. As for a 2nd round PG, Sean Singletary would be a guy I'd take a chance on.</div> I wouldn't mind Hansbrough either. I rather have a big that can play more up and down the court than Pekovic. Lester Hudson's DE profile seems very intrigue as a pg in the 2nd round. Dirk is back and Dallas needs to win tonights game against Golden St. I think Denver will get in and it will come down to those 2.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netted @ Apr 2 2008, 07:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>MY DREAM SUMMER: Sign & trade: Marcus, Krstic, Swift, Hassell and 2009 #1 pick for Brand for 5 years $75mm Re-sign Diop for $4mm/yr for 4 years Re-sign Nachbar for $3mm/yr for 3 years Sign a free agent shooting guard for $4mm/yr Sign a free agent veteran PG for around $2mm (A. Johnson?) Draft best wing (Batum/Douglas-Roberts?) Draft best PF (Arthur?) Draft best PG available in 2nd rd Re-tool the assistant staff with ones that will help solidify a team identity Roster: PG: Harris/FA vet/rookie SG: Carter/FA/Ager SF: Jefferson/Nachbar/Batum PF: Brand/Sean Williams/Arthur C: Boone/Diop And all this comes in at around $71mm in payroll. $2mm below the payroll the Nets started this season with. It's a dream.</div> You're banking in on a lot of those FA. Got to remember, the Nets have never really been too good with the FA.
For those of you like Dumpy and Netted that have plans built around keeping Vince and RJ as core pieces of the team, why do you believe that is good enough to get the Nets back into the playoffs next season? And how far do you see the teams you've listed going in the playoffs?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 3 2008, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>For those of you like Dumpy and Netted that have plans built around keeping Vince and RJ as core pieces of the team, why do you believe that is good enough to get the Nets back into the playoffs next season? And how far do you see the teams you've listed going in the playoffs?</div> Without further changes, the Nets are (at best) a .500 team, which apparently is good enough to get into the playoffs. I say "at best" because it's dependent on Vince's health. Even though he hasn't missed many games, his play is obviously greatly affected by some of the injuries he suffered just due to his style of play. However, I think that Vince's worth is more than what the nets could trade him for, partially because of his reputation, partially because of his erratic year, partially because of the length of his contract. All in all, I think they're better off keeping him. Same with RJ. It isn't possible to turn him into an impact big, so they might as well keep him. I believe that Devin, Vince, RJ, Boone is a good start. They have a capable PG who is a decent passer, a good defender, can shoot, and can run in transition. In Carter they have a guy who can shoot from anywhere on the court, and is also a good passer. Every good team needs someone like Boone--a tenacious offensive rebounder who can score from underneath the basket on put-backs and alley-oops. Carter and RJ play erratic defense, but you can't have everything. But that is just four players. To become an elite team, they need to add two things: A dominant big and a cohesive, dependable, productive bench. If you think of that core of four players I named and add someone like KG, Pau, Duncan, etc. we could argue that it is the best starting lineup in the league. Of course, that won't happen. The Nets can't get an elite big. They can't draft one; they can't sign one as a free agent; they can't acquire one in a trade. The best they'll be able to do is sign or acquire a mid-level big, who may or may not be better than Krstic. So let's leave this alone for a minute. I'm convinced that a team's bench, as a whole, is just as important as any one of its star players. To start the season, the Nets had one of the five worst benches in the league. They are a little better now, after the Kidd deal, but the fact remains that they are a colletion of parts that don't have a common identity. One guy can shoot but can't play defense. Another guy can play defense but can't shoot. Another guy is a plodder. Another guy likes to run and shoot but not to pass. etc., etc., etc. The Nets need to fix their bench, in part by deciding what the team's identity is and should be, and getting players that will accomplish it. Even though there are a number of players involved, this is easier to fix than getting an elite big to fill out the starting lineup. If the Nets can fix the bench--I mean REALLY fix the bench, then they could be a 50-win team even without an elite big in the lineup. [of course, they have to find that fifth starter who will also fit into the overarching team identity that they've defined] I don't really care WHAT that identity is--I think the Nets' core four guys, as I've defined them, are capable of playing a number of different styles--but it HAS to be done. If the Nets still want to pretend to be a "good" defensive team, then they have to cut ties with Boki, Marcus, and Krstic. I'd also dangle Sean Williams if I had to use him to acquire a better-fitting part. Unfortunately, I suspect that the Nets are stuck with Hassell and Swift, who take up $10 million of salary between them. I don't think they have any trade value, unless I guess if the Nets want to combine one of them with their lottery pick in a draft-day deal, which might not be a bad idea, to be honest. Anyway, I guess my point is that the status quo will get them to around .500. If I had to focus attention on fixing one thing, it would be the bench. I'd get a couple of shooters, and try to ensure that there were no defensive holes among the 6th through 10th men. I'd also make sure that everyone on the team could (and WOULD) race Devin down court. All the signs are pointing to the Nets keeping Krstic, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I guess if he could bounce back to the way he was in the months before his injury, he could be a pretty good fit for the starting lineup offensively, but he's still a weakness defensively. Personally, I'm skeptical that Rod Thorn will devise a plan and stick to it. I expect that there will just be a new collection of random bench parts next season.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 3 2008, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>For those of you like Dumpy and Netted that have plans built around keeping Vince and RJ as core pieces of the team, why do you believe that is good enough to get the Nets back into the playoffs next season? And how far do you see the teams you've listed going in the playoffs?</div> Since Devin is making about $7mm a year the Nets can afford to add another quality player. If they add a legitimate big like Brand that can play in the post then I think that changes everything. One player can make a huge difference on a team where only 5 or 6 players get the majority of the playing time. And they will still have room to use the MLE and add a quality wing player to the bench. Carter and Jefferson are talented and I continue to see Carter's game changing for the better (even through the injuries). Also, I don't think every team is able to rebuild by completely blowing everything up and developing young players. For every team that has had success with this method (New Orleans, Portland, Orlando, Toronto, Utah) there are many others that have struggled for years (Milwaukee, Charlotte, Memphis, Golden St, Atlanta, Seattle, Clippers). And Utah is the only one of those successes to have won a playoff series recently. Those are bad odds. Maybe it comes from being a fan of a team that took 25 years to become a contender that I have fear of another 25 year rebuilding project. I rather trade talent for some established talent than talent for just prospects. I don't mind gambling, but I rather not risk everything on the luck of the lottery balls and young guys developing.
Dumpy - That is quite a bit of non-belief in Thorn for you. I know that you have complained about the bench for some time now, but you are showing some serious frustration. My main question back to you regarding your plan is, based upon your bleak outlook, do you really want the Nets to miss out on another chance at the lottery in 2009? Netted - Yes, adding an All Star PF without trading Vince, RJ or Devin would certainly make the Nets a much better team, but as we are discussing in the other thread, I just don't see that happening. As for your list of teams that have struggled, lets go through them Milwaukee - In the playoffs in 2006, 2004, 2003, 2001, 2000 & 1999 - Don't see how they apply Charlotte - Expansion team with some piss poor draft choices Memphis - In the playoffs in 2006, 2005 & 2004 - Don't see how they apply Golden State - Yep, a huge playoff drought, however it was initiated by Webber opting out of his contract Atlanta - Great example of how poor management can destroy a team Seattle - In the playoffs in 2005, 2002, 2000 - Don't see how they apply Clippers - see Atlanta Thorn is nowhere close to as horrible as the front offices of Charlotte, Atlanta and the Clippers
what are nets' needs that the nets can try to address at the draft? 1. 3-point shooting 2. scoring 3. more playmaking ANSWER: MAYO/BAYLESS/GALLINARI 4. inside scoring 5. high % shots ANSWER: TYLER HANSBROUGH 6. on-ball defense 7. passing lane disruptor 8. pest ANSWER: LESTER HUDSON
As great of a college player as Tyler is, I don't see him being very effective as an inside scorer in the NBA.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 3 2008, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dumpy - That is quite a bit of non-belief in Thorn for you. I know that you have complained about the bench for some time now, but you are showing some serious frustration. My main question back to you regarding your plan is, based upon your bleak outlook, do you really want the Nets to miss out on another chance at the lottery in 2009?</div> I could be surprised, you never know. It's funny--although I agree with Frank that a team needs to be able to play defense to advance in the playoffs, at this point I'd rather they just decide to screw it and his methodical sets and try to run up and down the court and outscore the other team, and just try to do the best they can defensively. It's the way they obviously WANT to play; most of the players are more comfortable in that environment, and it seems to give them energy. But the best advantage is that they really only have to get rid of one player to build a unified identity: Hassell. Replace Hassell with a gunner, draft a shooter, keep Boki, Marcus, and Sean, give Ager a chance to earn some time, and you've got an interesting team with a unified purpose. Give Sean another chance to start, after he has a summer to work on his strength and his skills a bit. Keep Diop, because you'll need a tree in the middle to make up for all the truck-wide lanes. Let Marcus play, and don't worry about his defense (although he better get into great shape). The players want to be the "Warriors East," so just punt Hassell and let them do it. It's easy, simple to implement, and would require a minimum number of roster changes. Coach Frank would have to change his mindset, though.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 3 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 3 2008, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dumpy - That is quite a bit of non-belief in Thorn for you. I know that you have complained about the bench for some time now, but you are showing some serious frustration. My main question back to you regarding your plan is, based upon your bleak outlook, do you really want the Nets to miss out on another chance at the lottery in 2009?</div> I could be surprised, you never know. It's funny--although I agree with Frank that a team needs to be able to play defense to advance in the playoffs, at this point I'd rather they just decide to screw it and his methodical sets and try to run up and down the court and outscore the other team, and just try to do the best they can defensively. It's the way they obviously WANT to play; most of the players are more comfortable in that environment, and it seems to give them energy. But the best advantage is that they really only have to get rid of one player to build a unified identity: Hassell. Replace Hassell with a gunner, draft a shooter, keep Boki, Marcus, and Sean, give Ager a chance to earn some time, and you've got an interesting team with a unified purpose. Give Sean another chance to start, after he has a summer to work on his strength and his skills a bit. Keep Diop, because you'll need a tree in the middle to make up for all the truck-wide lanes. Let Marcus play, and don't worry about his defense (although he better get into great shape). The players want to be the "Warriors East," so just punt Hassell and let them do it. It's easy, simple to implement, and would require a minimum number of roster changes. Coach Frank would have to change his mindset, though.</div> Like the fine print in a contract, that nullifies any of the above changes.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 3 2008, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dumpy - That is quite a bit of non-belief in Thorn for you. I know that you have complained about the bench for some time now, but you are showing some serious frustration. My main question back to you regarding your plan is, based upon your bleak outlook, do you really want the Nets to miss out on another chance at the lottery in 2009? Netted - Yes, adding an All Star PF without trading Vince, RJ or Devin would certainly make the Nets a much better team, but as we are discussing in the other thread, I just don't see that happening. As for your list of teams that have struggled, lets go through them Milwaukee - In the playoffs in 2006, 2004, 2003, 2001, 2000 & 1999 - Don't see how they apply Charlotte - Expansion team with some piss poor draft choices Memphis - In the playoffs in 2006, 2005 & 2004 - Don't see how they apply Golden State - Yep, a huge playoff drought, however it was initiated by Webber opting out of his contract Atlanta - Great example of how poor management can destroy a team Seattle - In the playoffs in 2005, 2002, 2000 - Don't see how they apply Clippers - see Atlanta Thorn is nowhere close to as horrible as the front offices of Charlotte, Atlanta and the Clippers</div> I was refering to the last 5 years (I count the post Cassell, Robinson, Allen, Thomas as the rebuilding phase). Since 2003 the Bucks are 4-12 in 3 playoff series never getting out of the 1st round. Memphis is 0-12 in their 3 series. Seattle had success in 2005 advancing into the 2nd round and going 6-5 in 2 series, which was a blip on the radar since they are in shambles again. I wouldn't call any of that success. It doesn't matter the reasons those teams failed in their bid to build from scratch. They just did. Thorn could easily have a bad run. Jerry West did.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 3 2008, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As great of a college player as Tyler is, I don't see him being very effective as an inside scorer in the NBA.</div> that may be true...he can turn out to be just another mark madsen... he gets to shoot from the ft line 10x a game though with an 80% clip in college...if he can get enough respect from the refs by playing hard down low that's quite an easy way to get high percentage points...as a bonus, he grabs a lot of rebounds just by scraping amd being quick to the ball...i'm thinking bass, powe, craig smith and millsap but a better ft shooter... richard hendrix seems to be this type of player as well though i haven't seen him much...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netted @ Apr 3 2008, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 3 2008, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dumpy - That is quite a bit of non-belief in Thorn for you. I know that you have complained about the bench for some time now, but you are showing some serious frustration. My main question back to you regarding your plan is, based upon your bleak outlook, do you really want the Nets to miss out on another chance at the lottery in 2009? Netted - Yes, adding an All Star PF without trading Vince, RJ or Devin would certainly make the Nets a much better team, but as we are discussing in the other thread, I just don't see that happening. As for your list of teams that have struggled, lets go through them Milwaukee - In the playoffs in 2006, 2004, 2003, 2001, 2000 & 1999 - Don't see how they apply Charlotte - Expansion team with some piss poor draft choices Memphis - In the playoffs in 2006, 2005 & 2004 - Don't see how they apply Golden State - Yep, a huge playoff drought, however it was initiated by Webber opting out of his contract Atlanta - Great example of how poor management can destroy a team Seattle - In the playoffs in 2005, 2002, 2000 - Don't see how they apply Clippers - see Atlanta Thorn is nowhere close to as horrible as the front offices of Charlotte, Atlanta and the Clippers</div> I was refering to the last 5 years (I count the post Cassell, Robinson, Allen, Thomas as the rebuilding phase). Since 2003 the Bucks are 4-12 in 3 playoff series never getting out of the 1st round. Memphis is 0-12 in their 3 series. Seattle had success in 2005 advancing into the 2nd round and going 6-5 in 2 series, which was a blip on the radar since they are in shambles again. I wouldn't call any of that success. It doesn't matter the reasons those teams failed in their bid to build from scratch. They just did. Thorn could easily have a bad run. Jerry West did. </div> If you are only going by contender status, then the past few seasons where the Nets haven't done anything to get back to contender status must bother you. With that premise, I understand why you are fixated on making a big move this summer. However, getting Brand, while a huge improvement, doesn't get the Nets any closer to a championship than they were a couple of seasons ago. I look at it quite differently. The Nets have already attempted a rebuild based upon 3 mismatched perimeter players in a conference that had Shaq and the Pistons. Now the Nets need to rebuild again and the conference has changed once again. The Pistons are still the Pistons and Shaq is gone, but LeBron has become a force and the Celtics have a mini all star team. Add in an emerging Dwight Howard and a Toronto team that already passed the Nets because of their team play. The Nets pieces don't fit well enough to become a Pistons and the talent isn't sufficient to match up with the others deep in the playoffs. That is why I'm fixated on building around lottery picks in 2008 and 2009.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 3 2008, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netted @ Apr 3 2008, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 3 2008, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dumpy - That is quite a bit of non-belief in Thorn for you. I know that you have complained about the bench for some time now, but you are showing some serious frustration. My main question back to you regarding your plan is, based upon your bleak outlook, do you really want the Nets to miss out on another chance at the lottery in 2009? Netted - Yes, adding an All Star PF without trading Vince, RJ or Devin would certainly make the Nets a much better team, but as we are discussing in the other thread, I just don't see that happening. As for your list of teams that have struggled, lets go through them Milwaukee - In the playoffs in 2006, 2004, 2003, 2001, 2000 & 1999 - Don't see how they apply Charlotte - Expansion team with some piss poor draft choices Memphis - In the playoffs in 2006, 2005 & 2004 - Don't see how they apply Golden State - Yep, a huge playoff drought, however it was initiated by Webber opting out of his contract Atlanta - Great example of how poor management can destroy a team Seattle - In the playoffs in 2005, 2002, 2000 - Don't see how they apply Clippers - see Atlanta Thorn is nowhere close to as horrible as the front offices of Charlotte, Atlanta and the Clippers</div> I was refering to the last 5 years (I count the post Cassell, Robinson, Allen, Thomas as the rebuilding phase). Since 2003 the Bucks are 4-12 in 3 playoff series never getting out of the 1st round. Memphis is 0-12 in their 3 series. Seattle had success in 2005 advancing into the 2nd round and going 6-5 in 2 series, which was a blip on the radar since they are in shambles again. I wouldn't call any of that success. It doesn't matter the reasons those teams failed in their bid to build from scratch. They just did. Thorn could easily have a bad run. Jerry West did. </div> If you are only going by contender status, then the past few seasons where the Nets haven't done anything to get back to contender status must bother you. With that premise, I understand why you are fixated on making a big move this summer. However, getting Brand, while a huge improvement, doesn't get the Nets any closer to a championship than they were a couple of seasons ago. I look at it quite differently. The Nets have already attempted a rebuild based upon 3 mismatched perimeter players in a conference that had Shaq and the Pistons. Now the Nets need to rebuild again and the conference has changed once again. The Pistons are still the Pistons and Shaq is gone, but LeBron has become a force and the Celtics have a mini all star team. Add in an emerging Dwight Howard and a Toronto team that already passed the Nets because of their team play. The Nets pieces don't fit well enough to become a Pistons and the talent isn't sufficient to match up with the others deep in the playoffs. That is why I'm fixated on building around lottery picks in 2008 and 2009. </div> I don't think the Nets are still working with mismatched parts. With Kidd gone there is no style difference between VC and him. And if you add Brand it makes Carter, Jefferson and Harris even better. I totally get why you want to do it that way, and it could work, I just prefer the odds of building through most of the talent we have. I think it's a little safer. Both scenarios still require the right free agent moves and good drafting. Garnett and Allen completely changed the Celtics from worst to first. Could Brand and Harris change the Nets from borderline playoff team to title contender? Possibly. I'd love to find out. I prefer the odds in that kind of scenario compared to a complete rebuild with unknown prospects.
Resign Nenad Krstic and DeSagana Diop. Trade Vince Carter, Trenton Hassell and the Dallas pick for Jamaal Crawford, Malik Rose and Renaldo Balkman. Draft Nicolas Batum and Nikola Pekovic and let Pekovic stay in Europe. Sign James Jones and Ramon Sessions. PG - Devin Harris / Marcus Williams / Ramon Sessions SG - Jamaal Crawford / Nicolas Batum SF - Richard Jefferson / Renaldo Balkman PF - Nenad Krstic / Sean Williams / Stromile Swift C - DeSagana Diop / Josh Boone / Malik Rose Easier to trade Crawford if things don't work out and we would have Rose and Swifts contract expiring. Batum can run good from what I've seen which is a good pairing with Devin and Richard while Crawford gives us a more consistant shooter than Carter IMO. Diop is a better fit starting with Krstic due to the fact it's a better offense/defense rotation this way. Again, it's a .500 record but what else are we going to do?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 3 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 3 2008, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dumpy - That is quite a bit of non-belief in Thorn for you. I know that you have complained about the bench for some time now, but you are showing some serious frustration. My main question back to you regarding your plan is, based upon your bleak outlook, do you really want the Nets to miss out on another chance at the lottery in 2009?</div> I could be surprised, you never know. It's funny--although I agree with Frank that a team needs to be able to play defense to advance in the playoffs, at this point I'd rather they just decide to screw it and his methodical sets and try to run up and down the court and outscore the other team, and just try to do the best they can defensively. It's the way they obviously WANT to play; most of the players are more comfortable in that environment, and it seems to give them energy. But the best advantage is that they really only have to get rid of one player to build a unified identity: Hassell. Replace Hassell with a gunner, draft a shooter, keep Boki, Marcus, and Sean, give Ager a chance to earn some time, and you've got an interesting team with a unified purpose. Give Sean another chance to start, after he has a summer to work on his strength and his skills a bit. Keep Diop, because you'll need a tree in the middle to make up for all the truck-wide lanes. Let Marcus play, and don't worry about his defense (although he better get into great shape). The players want to be the "Warriors East," so just punt Hassell and let them do it. It's easy, simple to implement, and would require a minimum number of roster changes. Coach Frank would have to change his mindset, though. </div> They're just being lazy with defense right now. They all have the ability to play above average defense. Probably only a handful of players in the whole league that actually want to play defense. I want defense back next season. Fresh camp and everyone on the same page.
