<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (illmatic @ Mar 31 2008, 12:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nah, sorry huevon, you got it twisted on this one. THE 3-point shot stretches the defense, NOT Kobe chucking up 3 pointers at his will. When you space the floor and have like Radman on the wing, Sasha at the corner on the weak side, then that spaces the floor for the Triangle offense. Especially if you go inside out (which the Lakers can't do without Pau and Bynum). Kobe's 3's are different then other Lakers shooting up 3's</div> Are you talking about more cases other than when he chucks? If you are then you are very mistaken. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And you gotta realize, Kobe shooting 3's sets the table for others into thing it's okay to always settle for the 3. There were NUMEROUS plays tonight that would have resulted in a 3 point shot, instead they pump faked and took it in. Anyone else notice that? I noticed Jordan did that, Lamar did it, Fish, etc... which is good.</div> That's our team's problem, not his. Phil has to coach the team right. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>One more thing...Kobe shooting 3's is ok with me when he's feeling it and really has the hot hand.. But if it's off and he isn't shooting it well, I hate him shooting 3's, it just leads to quick transition for the other team (GS being a good example)</div> Well it's a catch-22. He may not be feeling it at the time but he can get hot at any point. To control that with Kobe is quite difficult. I wouldn't criticize him at all in that aspect, it's part of his game to hit some ridiculous shots. Not everyone can be Nash from outside and he's already well above the average of 33 (eg, Iverson in Philly chucked to a larger degree that's unacceptable). How does one define a chuck, and how many a game does he do that? He averages about 5 three pointers a game, most of them in the right flow of the game. Going back to your previous post, I also don't really care how he criticizes his teammates, they need to get some tougher skin. The whining gets a bit excessive with him but the Refs have given him some unfair Techs. As you can see, they also help with getting more calls in the future. It's a tough situation once again, you seem to have more of a case with the T's though.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Are you talking about more cases other than when he chucks? If you are then you are very mistaken.</div> Nah, just the chucking that doesn't go through the offense and occurs at the wrong time and when he is not hot/heat check. Especially late in the game when we are down by 4 and he chucks one up and we miss, transition basket for other team, now we're down by 6, GG us. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>That's our team's problem, not his. Phil has to coach the team right.</div> Kobe is our on floor coach, and Phil gets his fair share of criticism, so it's Kobe's turn. He leads by example, if he chucks up 3 pointers, the rest of the players chuck them up. If he gambles on defense, his rubs off on the others. Don't tell me it's not fair, he's our leader, that's just how it is. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Well it's a catch-22. He may not be feeling it at the time but he can get hot at any point. To control that with Kobe is quite difficult. I wouldn't criticize him at all in that aspect, it's part of his game to hit some ridiculous shots. Not everyone can be Nash from outside and he's already well above the average of 33 (eg, Iverson in Philly chucked to a larger degree that's unacceptable). How does one define a chuck, and how many a game does he do that? He averages about 5 three pointers a game, most of them in the right flow of the game. The chuck expands to his mid range game as well, shots that are very low percentage, even if they are Kobe-type shots. I rather have those shots going to the other players who have been created opportunities from the Triangle off. Kobe should get his through the post or driving to the basket, and the occasional mid range shot he sets up for himself (but not over 3 defenders) Going back to your previous post, I also don't really care how he criticizes his teammates, they need to get some tougher skin. The whining gets a bit excessive with him but the Refs have given him some unfair Techs. As you can see, they also help with getting more calls in the future. It's a tough situation once again, you seem to have more of a case with the T's though.</div> Are you kidding me? unfair with the Techs? Quite the contrary, he has been let off some techs NUMEROUS times because he's Kobe Bryant. He barks at them every damn play, it's surprising he doens't get more.. The techs are more than warranted. That game where he got 2, the first one was for excessive bitching/whining, the second was for kicking the ball. Kicking the ball after you alerady have one tech = not such a great idea. Kobe didn't used to be like this, that's why it pisses me off...He thinks he's God now (although warranted) but EVERY TIME he misses a shot, even if there is no foul, he flails his arms up and dawgs the refs, how can Kobe fans not get annoyed by this? Is it possible that you just missed the shot Kobe because you mis-shot?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (illmatic @ Mar 31 2008, 11:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>That's our team's problem, not his. Phil has to coach the team right.</div> Kobe is our on floor coach, and Phil gets his fair share of criticism, so it's Kobe's turn. He leads by example, if he chucks up 3 pointers, the rest of the players chuck them up. If he gambles on defense, his rubs off on the others. Don't tell me it's not fair, he's our leader, that's just how it is.</div> And Kobe's been a good floor coach. You have not proven the correlation. Who exactly are you referring to when you say others are chucking three pointers? Fish and Farmar are not true PGs and hog the ball their fair share of times which has nothing to do with Kobe. And when they mess up Kobe tells them to stop. Except you have already stated that you don't want Kobe to yell at these millionaires. Sensitive stuff imo, Farmar and other goons mess up badly. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Are you kidding me? unfair with the Techs? Quite the contrary, he has been let off some techs NUMEROUS times because he's Kobe Bryant. He barks at them every damn play, it's surprising he doens't get more.. The techs are more than warranted. That game where he got 2, the first one was for excessive bitching/whining, the second was for kicking the ball. Kicking the ball after you alerady have one tech = not such a great idea. Kobe didn't used to be like this, that's why it pisses me off...He thinks he's God now (although warranted) but EVERY TIME he misses a shot, even if there is no foul, he flails his arms up and dawgs the refs, how can Kobe fans not get annoyed by this? Is it possible that you just missed the shot Kobe because you mis-shot?</div> The instances where he's gotten a second Tech in a game, he did not deserve it. Kobe should be able to bark as much as he wants until that first tech, it helps get calls. That's what I was referring to specifically. Edit- Up to 15 Techs, this is my perspective at least. This point is even more fleshed out in my post below.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Mar 31 2008, 11:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (illmatic @ Mar 31 2008, 11:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>That's our team's problem, not his. Phil has to coach the team right.</div> Kobe is our on floor coach, and Phil gets his fair share of criticism, so it's Kobe's turn. He leads by example, if he chucks up 3 pointers, the rest of the players chuck them up. If he gambles on defense, his rubs off on the others. Don't tell me it's not fair, he's our leader, that's just how it is.</div> And Kobe's been a good floor coach. You have not proven the correlation. Who exactly are you referring to when you say others are chucking three pointers? Fish and Farmar are not true PGs and hog the ball their fair share of times which has nothing to do with Kobe. And when they mess up Kobe tells them to stop. Except you have already stated that you don't want Kobe to yell at these millionaires. Sensitive stuff imo, Farmar and other goons mess up badly. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Are you kidding me? unfair with the Techs? Quite the contrary, he has been let off some techs NUMEROUS times because he's Kobe Bryant. He barks at them every damn play, it's surprising he doens't get more.. The techs are more than warranted. That game where he got 2, the first one was for excessive bitching/whining, the second was for kicking the ball. Kicking the ball after you alerady have one tech = not such a great idea. Kobe didn't used to be like this, that's why it pisses me off...He thinks he's God now (although warranted) but EVERY TIME he misses a shot, even if there is no foul, he flails his arms up and dawgs the refs, how can Kobe fans not get annoyed by this? Is it possible that you just missed the shot Kobe because you mis-shot?</div> The instances where he's gotten a second Tech in a game, he did not deserve it.</div> Honestly Huevon, how good of a floor coach is he when he's barking at Farmar to pass to him instead of getting the pass to Luke who scored and got the And-1? I'm all for team ball, not Kobe ball. Fisher is another that doesn't let Kobe always have his way, but I bet you Kobe wouldn't raise his voice at D Fish, hell no. No joke in one of the plays two games ago, I literally saw Kobe jumping up and down pouting when he didn't get the pass, I kid you not, I couldn't believe my eyes. About the 3 point shots, haven't you ever seen Sasha, Farmar, Lamar, Fish shoot 3 pointers without running the offense whatsoever? How can Kobe check them when they say "You do it too" .......yeah I don't think Kobe replying with "Well I'm Kobe, I do what I want" will fly with the team. Listen, we are a TEAM, Kobe is the best and leader of that TEAM. He can't be a hypocrite, if he stops those 3's that are not within the offense, then the other players will realize hey we can't do that either, both Kobe and Phil want us to run through the triangle. If Kobe stops gambling on defense and starts playing how he was playing early on in the year, then I GUARANTEE YOU that intensity rubs off on the others. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe should be able to bark as much as he wants until that first tech, it helps get calls. That's what I was referring to specifically.</div> I really can't believe you said that and that you honestly feel that way. Are you serious? Oh okay, in that case, he'll get 82 techs a season, but hey atleast he'll be getting foul calls. It is REALLY hard to officiate Kobe Bryant, have you ever thought of that? Imagine how many times they called the opposition on a foul when there was no foul, and how many times they missed a foul when there was? It balances out for the most part. Kobe was not always like that, the league needs to check his ass and have some respects for the referees. Nah, but Laker fans don't care about no one but they're god, Kobe. Sorry if I'm sounding bitter, but I've liked to think I've matured as a Laker fan, and a fan of the game period. I used to back up Kobe if someone bad mouthed him more than my mom in the past and I used to think Kobe does no wrong, sorry I just can't believe that anymore. Like I said, still my favorite player ever, but everybody has their flaws.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (illmatic @ Apr 1 2008, 02:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Honestly Huevon, how good of a floor coach is he when he's barking at Farmar to pass to him instead of getting the pass to Luke who scored and got the And-1? I'm all for team ball, not Kobe ball. Fisher is another that doesn't let Kobe always have his way, but I bet you Kobe wouldn't raise his voice at D Fish, hell no. No joke in one of the plays two games ago, I literally saw Kobe jumping up and down pouting when he didn't get the pass, I kid you not, I couldn't believe my eyes. About the 3 point shots, haven't you ever seen Sasha, Farmar, Lamar, Fish shoot 3 pointers without running the offense whatsoever? How can Kobe check them when they say "You do it too" .......yeah I don't think Kobe replying with "Well I'm Kobe, I do what I want" will fly with the team.</div> Your argument is too vague. We have chuckers on this team, but 1 or 2 forced three pointers a game from Bryant would not cause me to believe that the team avalanche of Threes is his fault. You have not proven a correlation, or to what extent Kobe is in error. Your conclusions seem rather dubious and dramatic. Often times, Kobe having a bad night from outside would cause people to believe he's chucking. He only makes 1.7 game, so threes made fluctuate somewhat wildly. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Listen, we are a TEAM, Kobe is the best and leader of that TEAM. He can't be a hypocrite, if he stops those 3's that are not within the offense, then the other players will realize hey we can't do that either, both Kobe and Phil want us to run through the triangle. If Kobe stops gambling on defense and starts playing how he was playing early on in the year, then I GUARANTEE YOU that intensity rubs off on the others.</div> How is Kobe not doing his job? If he isn't, it's to a minor extent. You're making the problem out to be more than it is. We have hogs on this team, the other comments you speak of are speculation. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I really can't believe you said that and that you honestly feel that way. Are you serious? Oh okay, in that case, he'll get 82 techs a season, but hey atleast he'll be getting foul calls. It is REALLY hard to officiate Kobe Bryant, have you ever thought of that? Imagine how many times they called the opposition on a foul when there was no foul, and how many times they missed a foul when there was? It balances out for the most part. Kobe was not always like that, the league needs to check his ass and have some respects for the referees. Nah, but Laker fans don't care about no one but they're god, Kobe. Sorry if I'm sounding bitter, but I've liked to think I've matured as a Laker fan, and a fan of the game period. I used to back up Kobe if someone bad mouthed him more than my mom in the past and I used to think Kobe does no wrong, sorry I just can't believe that anymore. Like I said, still my favorite player ever, but everybody has their flaws.</div> Does Kobe have 82 techs at this moment? Obviously he knows how to talk trash while still not reaching the 16 Tech Suspension. Once Kobe gets 15 techs, he has to be a mute and my philosophy changes as well. It is very unrealistic to suggest he would get 15 in the early or middle part of the season, so I thought it was not necessary for me to clarify that before. My point about the Techs was the nature in which he received his ejections. Kobe knows how to cool off after the first technical, while also keeping track of his season total in that category. As long as he takes both these things into account, I fully understand what he's doing.
We obviously disagree and I know these arguments never come to a clear conclusion, so I'll agree to disagree.
