Game Thread - Nuggets vs. Warriors - 4/10 - 5:00pm PDT Tip-off

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jason voorhees @ Apr 10 2008, 11:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HiRez @ Apr 10 2008, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This team is garbage. Three of their starters just flat out cannot shoot the basketball (Baron=43%, Harrington=43%, Jackson=40%). Monta was not that great despite the 29 points: 4 missed freethrows and 6 turnovers, but at least he has the excuse of being young.

Trade everyone not named Ellis, Biedrins, or Wright, I'm sick of the bad ego-driven outside shots, people never learning from their mistakes which they keep making over and over (Baron took at least 2 3s with 20+ seconds left on the shot clock), the blown layups, the failure to get back on defense on every other play, the inevitable letdown against subpar teams, the failure to find and feed the hot hand, the soft reach-in fouls, the failure to work for position and box out on the boards, the missed foul shots, the utter inability to break a zone defense, the lazy passes in critical situations, and most of all the inconsistency.

Start over. This team will never go anywhere in the playoffs, if they can even get there. If the goal is to entertain then the Warriors mostly succeed. If it's to win a championship they will fail.</div>

I just got home and saw the score and comments. ARRRGGGHHHH! We played like crap in such a big game. I can't take these kinds of losses.
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Yeah. Maybe it was more like, nobody stepped it up enough to win the game. I guess last season when this team was clicking there was somebody each night, seemingly, just stepping it up and playing with a lot of heart and just playing awesome basketball. Right now the shots are not dropping, and in this game they were kind of wusses and tried to stay away from the hoop because of Camby and Martin, and I don't know. The big trouble came with the zone. The Warriors came into the 2nd quarter with a big lead, started the quarter with Baron on the bench. The Nuggets went into a zone. Stephen Jackson made a horrible play as the pg on that possession. Monta was quick to take the point with the next possession and he just got swallowed up by the zone. It just went downhill from there. It was really frustrating also because there were so many missed layups. There was one where Jackson was right at the rim and he seriously seemed to got rejected by the rim. But then was fouled and fortunately made two free throws. I thought there was another layup Harrington should have finished on the run where he ended up hurting his foot. Missed free throws late in the game did not help either.

This team is good, but not good enough to be a Western Conference playoff team. I thought it was going to be a tough 9 team run for the playoffs this year. I thought the Hornets were going to be good, not 1st place in the West good, but a good shot at making the playoffs. I thought the Lakers weren't going to be so good, and would fall out to let the Warriors in. But man, they got Gasol... I guess the Warriors just need to win the rest of the games and hope for a lot of help from the Nuggets. It can happen, hopefully.

 

The warriors in the later half of the season look plain tired, which means Nelson overplayed some of his guys so now they're wearing out from a marathon of a season. Plus, it's really all about the shot selection and the defensive play from last year... I know Baron Davis is our best player, but his shot selection is just frustrating and it shouldn't be affected by fatigue. He's not even close half the time when he launches a 3. He's a terrible shot and yet he continues to hoist early in the clock from a far distance. I don't think we can ever win with a player like that wasting possessions, especially with what he's paid (the max amount). I'd rather have a 15 ppg point guard that can look to pass first and actually makes 37% of his 3's. Man... Plus, Monta Ellis really needs to work on his D and ball handling. It's just bad at times. We know Sjax is streaky but he finds players with fewer dribbles, which is good because he gets stripped with the way he throws the ball out in front of him.

Charles Barkley is right, the warriors shot selection is just tuuurrible. I like the future Warriors, but I really got it in for Al Harrington at power forward and Baron Davis at point guard. You can't have your POINT GUARD thinking he's a shooting guard and taking shots in volume at a low %. He took nine 3point attempts when he could have found something else or passed the ball. Very bad decision-making. If the reason for his bad shooting is that he's injured again and he's hiding that fact, maybe we should look to somebody who is more durable. He's constantly injured.

We need a pure point guard, but Baron Davis is really great when he decides to play one... Maybe what we need is more reliable scoring options inside and a coach who can mix it up. I don't know... we need to find ways to improve shot selection and the only way I can think of is to reign in Baron Davis a little, find bigger options inside so we're not playing all the way up top all the time. Attacking the baseline doesn't work if defenses rotate a weakside defender on the ball. It's probably much better to send somebody to post up down low, bother their center, and seal that guy off while the power forward moves around to get open. We just don't body people up or get some movement off that ball... It's impossible if we have guys just standing around waiting for 3 point shots or they're taking early 3's...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Apr 11 2008, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The warriors in the later half of the season look plain tired, which means Nelson overplayed some of his guys so now they're wearing out from a marathon of a season. Plus, it's really all about the shot selection and the defensive play from last year... I know Baron Davis is our best player, but his shot selection is just frustrating and it shouldn't be affected by fatigue. He's not even close half the time when he launches a 3. He's a terrible shot and yet he continues to hoist early in the clock from a far distance. I don't think we can ever win with a player like that wasting possessions, especially with what he's paid (the max amount). I'd rather have a 15 ppg point guard that can look to pass first and actually makes 37% of his 3's. Man... Plus, Monta Ellis really needs to work on his D and ball handling. It's just bad at times. We know Sjax is streaky but he finds players with fewer dribbles, which is good because he gets stripped with the way he throws the ball out in front of him.

Charles Barkley is right, the warriors shot selection is just tuuurrible. I like the future Warriors, but I really got it in for Al Harrington at power forward and Baron Davis at point guard. You can't have your POINT GUARD thinking he's a shooting guard and taking shots in volume at a low %. He took nine 3point attempts when he could have found something else or passed the ball. Very bad decision-making. If the reason for his bad shooting is that he's injured again and he's hiding that fact, maybe we should look to somebody who is more durable. He's constantly injured.

We need a pure point guard, but Baron Davis is really great when he decides to play one... Maybe what we need is more reliable scoring options inside and a coach who can mix it up. I don't know... we need to find ways to improve shot selection and the only way I can think of is to reign in Baron Davis a little, find bigger options inside so we're not playing all the way up top all the time. Attacking the baseline doesn't work if defenses rotate a weakside defender on the ball. It's probably much better to send somebody to post up down low, bother their center, and seal that guy off while the power forward moves around to get open. We just don't body people up or get some movement off that ball... It's impossible if we have guys just standing around waiting for 3 point shots or they're taking early 3's...</div>

CR, I agree with everything except your bashing of Baron Davis. Yes, his shot selection is questionable and his shot mechanics are horrible. Yes, when he decides to be a PG, he's a great one. But look at his supporting cast. No one is stepping up and making their shots like last year (or earlier this year). Your criticism for BD has been consistent, I'll give you that, and I do share some of the same frustrations, but I don't think you can say we can't win with him.

On the contrary, I think we NEED him to win, at least for 2 - 3 years while we develop (hopefully) our young dudes. I think you're forgetting that he's the team leader not only in stats but emotionally and psychologically. Everyone on the team looks up to Baron. That's important and I think you might be underestimating that.

The question is, who do we get instead of BD if we don't keep him? I thought the plan was to keep BD around while Monta learns the PG position. It sounds like you don't have much faith in Monta improving his handles and defense. Monta's passing, especially in the half-court, has got considerably better though.

Anyway, tough loss last night. As loud as it was at times, it didn't have that "playoff" feel. "We Believe" my ass. Believe that we just got handed by no-defense Nuggets.

On the bright side, our entire section, including the Nuggets bench got a chuckle out of my girlfriend's sign she made out of the We Believe signs that said, "Melo! I want to have your baby without child support."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Apr 11 2008, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The warriors in the later half of the season look plain tired, which means Nelson overplayed some of his guys so now they're wearing out from a marathon of a season. Plus, it's really all about the shot selection and the defensive play from last year... I know Baron Davis is our best player, but his shot selection is just frustrating and it shouldn't be affected by fatigue. He's not even close half the time when he launches a 3. He's a terrible shot and yet he continues to hoist early in the clock from a far distance. I don't think we can ever win with a player like that wasting possessions, especially with what he's paid (the max amount). I'd rather have a 15 ppg point guard that can look to pass first and actually makes 37% of his 3's. Man... Plus, Monta Ellis really needs to work on his D and ball handling. It's just bad at times. We know Sjax is streaky but he finds players with fewer dribbles, which is good because he gets stripped with the way he throws the ball out in front of him.

Charles Barkley is right, the warriors shot selection is just tuuurrible. I like the future Warriors, but I really got it in for Al Harrington at power forward and Baron Davis at point guard. You can't have your POINT GUARD thinking he's a shooting guard and taking shots in volume at a low %. He took nine 3point attempts when he could have found something else or passed the ball. Very bad decision-making. If the reason for his bad shooting is that he's injured again and he's hiding that fact, maybe we should look to somebody who is more durable. He's constantly injured.

We need a pure point guard, but Baron Davis is really great when he decides to play one... Maybe what we need is more reliable scoring options inside and a coach who can mix it up. I don't know... we need to find ways to improve shot selection and the only way I can think of is to reign in Baron Davis a little, find bigger options inside so we're not playing all the way up top all the time. Attacking the baseline doesn't work if defenses rotate a weakside defender on the ball. It's probably much better to send somebody to post up down low, bother their center, and seal that guy off while the power forward moves around to get open. We just don't body people up or get some movement off that ball... It's impossible if we have guys just standing around waiting for 3 point shots or they're taking early 3's...</div>

I agree that the shot selection has to improve. I disagree with dumping Baron Davis because of the bad shot selection. I agree that this team needs another PG and that this team needs to probably work with Al Harrington to stop being a black hole. The big problem is not the shots that they took, but what they were doing before they took the shots. There was no ball movement what so ever. Players were making lazy passes, when they did make them like Jackson's lazy bounce dribble to the guy he dribble toward to give the ball up or Ellis standing in the corner on the right side and making no threat on the opponent and passes it into the center lazily and telegraphically into the other team's hands. Baron can pass, but the problem is that nobody else can. Andris is not going to pass. Harrington is a black hole. Jackson is very streaky with his ball handling, and can look real bad easily, and Monta is still turnover prone and while he is good he is mostly a slasher, garbage man on the offensive glass and mid range shooter than a real good distributor in my opinion. Maybe they should have played CJ Watson more. But I think in the big game you go with the big players, which I think Nelson was doing and does.

Also as far as shot selection, I thought the Warriors for the lack of ball movement that they had, put up somewhat decent shots. I thought there were several that should have gone down and could have but went in and out. I mean there were a couple of threes at the end of the game that seemed to go in and out (or actually one three and that one play where Harrington I think got fouled on a shot that almost went in). Missed free throws hurt as well.

I saw how Marco in that Grizzlies game is always looking to pass when he's the pg and setting up the play on each possession. He doesn't even look for his shot at first. Maybe he needed to get in there last night for that, plus for perhaps being a smart player and good shooter to dissect that zone (though I am not sure is he a smart player?). I remember in the Memphis game he made the hockey assist from the left side to the middle, which led to the quick olly-oop dunk to Biedrins or someone. There weren't many hockey assists last night for the Warriors, and perhaps that is the way you had to beat that zone.

 

But it's true guys, we're not going to win with Baron Davis if he wastes possessions taking as many shots as he does. If he takes fewer and tries to find people before hoisting it up after 4 seconds on the shotclock has gone by, maybe we'd win more. I never said dump Baron Davis, but reign him until he decides to play a pure point and get him a better supporting cast inside the paint. If we find a good passer that doesn't dominate the ball like him, yeah let's do a trade. It'll probably work out for us and force us to play the rooks (including POB).

It's Baron's team and sometimes teams are only as good as their superstars. I feel if he wants to be a superstar, how about this guy try making everyone around him better? He didn't even try. He's been doing a bad job of this no matter what the stat sheet says. He's playing undisciplined, panic type of ball that's outside his limitations which is his ability to shoot well from outside. The terrible shot selection is just not good basketball and we're limited when Baron leads the team by example by taking terrible terrible shots when there are other options available. Bad, bad floor leadership by a supposed point guard.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Apr 12 2008, 08:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It's Baron's team and sometimes teams are only as good as their superstars. I feel if he wants to be a superstar, how about this guy try making everyone around him better? He didn't even try. He's been doing a bad job of this no matter what the stat sheet says. He's playing undisciplined, panic type of ball that's outside his limitations which is his ability to shoot well from outside. The terrible shot selection is just not good basketball and we're limited when Baron leads the team by example by taking terrible terrible shots when there are other options available. Bad, bad floor leadership by a supposed point guard.</div>
That's exactly what I've been thinking. Baron is the captain, the point guard, and as close to a star player as the Warriors have. He's supposed to be setting an example, and the message he sends is, it's OK to jack up an off-balance, contested perimeter shot, without passing or even looking for a better shot, with people not in position to rebound,with the whole shot clock remaining. The Warriors can get open 3 point shots any time they want them when they work for them, I just can't understand why you'd ever waste the shot clock like that.

However, I have to put some blame on Nelson too, because it's his job to stop that from happening when he sees it. It's nice he's given Baron a free hand, but a little too much IMO. I've never once seen him get in Davis' face after one of those shots. He has this "gotta take the bad with the good" mentality and it doesn't seem like he's interested in using some authority to correct fundamental mistakes. Part of the problem is Baron is not coachable in that he responds poorly to discipline. When Nellie and Baron leave, I think we need a coach who will lay down the law a little and not allow mistakes to keep repeating themselves. The good news is Monta, Andris, and Brandan Wright all seem like good kids with small egos who could accept that (maybe Pietrus and POB too).

Also, is it just me or do we see at least 2 airballs a game from the 3-point line from the Warriors?

 

Fire Nellie, hire Jeff Van Gundy!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HiRez @ Apr 12 2008, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Apr 12 2008, 08:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It's Baron's team and sometimes teams are only as good as their superstars. I feel if he wants to be a superstar, how about this guy try making everyone around him better? He didn't even try. He's been doing a bad job of this no matter what the stat sheet says. He's playing undisciplined, panic type of ball that's outside his limitations which is his ability to shoot well from outside. The terrible shot selection is just not good basketball and we're limited when Baron leads the team by example by taking terrible terrible shots when there are other options available. Bad, bad floor leadership by a supposed point guard.</div>
That's exactly what I've been thinking. Baron is the captain, the point guard, and as close to a star player as the Warriors have. He's supposed to be setting an example, and the message he sends is, it's OK to jack up an off-balance, contested perimeter shot, without passing or even looking for a better shot, with people not in position to rebound,with the whole shot clock remaining. The Warriors can get open 3 point shots any time they want them when they work for them, I just can't understand why you'd ever waste the shot clock like that.

However, I have to put some blame on Nelson too, because it's his job to stop that from happening when he sees it. It's nice he's given Baron a free hand, but a little too much IMO. I've never once seen him get in Davis' face after one of those shots. He has this "gotta take the bad with the good" mentality and it doesn't seem like he's interested in using some authority to correct fundamental mistakes. Part of the problem is Baron is not coachable in that he responds poorly to discipline. When Nellie and Baron leave, I think we need a coach who will lay down the law a little and not allow mistakes to keep repeating themselves. The good news is Monta, Andris, and Brandan Wright all seem like good kids with small egos who could accept that (maybe Pietrus and POB too).

Also, is it just me or do we see at least 2 airballs a game from the 3-point line from the Warriors?
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It definitely seems like a lot of airballs, especially coming from guys who try to shoot off the dribble or guys who aren't typically labeled as 3 point shooters. I believe Harrington and Sjax can knock them down fine, but it's guys like Mickael Pietrus and Baron Davis that you have to worry about hoisting that stuff. If guys are shooting below 35% from beyond the arc, they need to stop and think about shot selection and play more like Monta Ellis's shot selection (22 feet in).

One thing I liked about Pietrus as of late is that he tries to step in and knock down the international 3 point shot. I don't see why Baron Davis doesn't do that more often because he can create separation and pull back to about 20 feet and take the J right there. But noooooo, he's got to hoist a la Derek Fisher trying to be all Sjax-like. And everyone on the board knows by now what I thought of Derek Fisher when he was this team's starting point guard... blehhh..

I think Sjax is the only guy who should get the green light on any 3, because #1 he's the only guy on our team besides Biedrins that bothers to play consistent defense #2 he's our hottest, most clutch shot who knows how to use the pump fake, and he looks to pass inside first because he knows his role on the team. To me he does a better job of being floor captain than Baron right now. Freakin' 20+ shot attempts a game when he's ice cold and damn... I want a new pass first point guard or the coach to reign Baron in. It just doesn't seem like Baron knows that his role is to be the quarterback of this team. That role should have been obvious because we know that Biedrins, Ellis, and Sjax seem to know their roles. Now what we need these guys to do is to play together and take the pressure off Baron Davis by moving off the ball. Everything is just so streetball and undisciplined. That style just can't win games, especially if the defense is not consistent and all-around. What it leads to is a team that can't make defensive stops, make the most of their offensive possessions, so they don't control the tempo.

The worst is when the Warriors try to stop the ball, they gamble a bit too much and get out of position. Baron Davis probably leads the league in steals right now, but how much of that effort led to somebody coming over to help too late or overplay the ball? The defensive positioning has to be crisp otherwise you get beat. The offense always has the advantage of making that first move so the Warriors have to play it smart and play the odds.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Legacy @ Apr 12 2008, 01:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Fire Nellie, hire Jeff Van Gundy!!</div>

Not sure if that would work, but he would definitely preach physical D and offense execution.

Coaches are so complicated... you got to find the right fit for the team both chemistry wise and leadership wise... Some players don't respond well to some coaches. If they're too lax, they don't listen, if they are too disciplinary, they don't listen... sigh... But we definitely have some good players who aren't primadonnas as far as we know (Wright, Biedrins, Ellis).

I liked Montgomery and Musselman. Both are different personalities of course, but great fundamental ball type guys, who had no real choice but to play a different style because of their lineups. I pretty much didn't have a problem with any of the coaches except for when Musselman had that one 2 point 4th quarter game against the Raptors. That was disgraceful. I also had a problem with Montgomery and him overplaying Fisher and then benching Biedrins for the entire game after 2 quick fouls in the first quarter. I hated Fisher. Talk about how not to play point guard despite having all the skills to play a decent one if he just didn't try to play outside his game. If Derek Fisher just didn't go beyond his limitations, the Warriors and him would get along fine. He's definitely capable of being a starter, but not next to Jrich and Dunleavy with Foyle/Murphy... that's just dumb... lol. Guys like Fisher and Foyle would never be used in any motion offense that has either of them running plays. One that can't catch or make wide open layups/dunks and one that shoots early, can't pass off the drive or run a simple fastbreak. LOL.

One thing I learned, coaches matter a lot, but GMs matter a lot more in the nba. Hehehe. I'm going to hire Hubie Brown! And stick him with a bunch of guys that can't play as a team.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Apr 12 2008, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But it's true guys, we're not going to win with Baron Davis if he wastes possessions taking as many shots as he does. If he takes fewer and tries to find people before hoisting it up after 4 seconds on the shotclock has gone by, maybe we'd win more. I never said dump Baron Davis, but reign him until he decides to play a pure point and get him a better supporting cast inside the paint. If we find a good passer that doesn't dominate the ball like him, yeah let's do a trade. It'll probably work out for us and force us to play the rooks (including POB).

It's Baron's team and sometimes teams are only as good as their superstars. I feel if he wants to be a superstar, how about this guy try making everyone around him better? He didn't even try. He's been doing a bad job of this no matter what the stat sheet says. He's playing undisciplined, panic type of ball that's outside his limitations which is his ability to shoot well from outside. The terrible shot selection is just not good basketball and we're limited when Baron leads the team by example by taking terrible terrible shots when there are other options available. Bad, bad floor leadership by a supposed point guard.</div>

I again have to disagree with your assessment of BD. We HAVE won with him. We're going to get 50 wins with him (it just so happens the West is stacked this year). Where would we be without him right now? We wouldn't even be entertaining the thought of the playoffs. I don't think you can ignore his stats...who in the league with less assists per game is going to lead this team by example better?

WHO? How are we going to "reign him in?" That makes no sense. He's played every game this year, has shown a lot of heart and dedication towards making the team better in all other aspects. It's unfair for your to even speculate that he might be injured. He's gased..."the big 3" got not help from the bench this year.

BD is a smart player despite his shot selection, which btw, I think you emphasize way too much. Since Nellie has been coaching, everyone's been taking unconventional shots, which when going in help the Warriors win and when they don't, they lose. Pretty simple. There's not a happy median where BD not taking quick shots (that don't go in) translates to better basketball with the way the Warriors are coached and play. The Warriors philosophy in the new Nellie era has been that the quick shot might be the best shot available (given their style of play). Okay, okay, so that doesn't mean all his "bad shots" are OK...yes, he takes bad shots, but can you tell me how many times we've lost because of just BD taking those bad shots? Our losses this year have been a pretty cumulative effort, wouldn't you agree? I don't think you can hold BD accountable for all of them even though he is the PG. Like you said, a better supporting cast would help. If we're going to talk about shot selection, we have to bring Nellie into the equation.

Honestly, I don't see a better replacement at the PG position that would be available to us.

How about this: would you trade BD for Elton Brand straight up? That's somewhat intriguing to me.

 

Hey, Kensaku, sorry I tried to reply, but I accidentally replied within your post. I hope I didn't alter anything. Here's my response:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Apr 12 2008, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But it's true guys, we're not going to win with Baron Davis if he wastes possessions taking as many shots as he does. If he takes fewer and tries to find people before hoisting it up after 4 seconds on the shotclock has gone by, maybe we'd win more. I never said dump Baron Davis, but reign him until he decides to play a pure point and get him a better supporting cast inside the paint. If we find a good passer that doesn't dominate the ball like him, yeah let's do a trade. It'll probably work out for us and force us to play the rooks (including POB).

It's Baron's team and sometimes teams are only as good as their superstars. I feel if he wants to be a superstar, how about this guy try making everyone around him better? He didn't even try. He's been doing a bad job of this no matter what the stat sheet says. He's playing undisciplined, panic type of ball that's outside his limitations which is his ability to shoot well from outside. The terrible shot selection is just not good basketball and we're limited when Baron leads the team by example by taking terrible terrible shots when there are other options available. Bad, bad floor leadership by a supposed point guard.</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Kensaku')</div><div class='quotemain'>I again have to disagree with your assessment of BD. We HAVE won with him. We're going to get 50 wins with him (it just so happens the West is stacked this year). Where would we be without him right now? We wouldn't even be entertaining the thought of the playoffs. I don't think you can ignore his stats...who in the league with less assists per game is going to lead this team by example better?</div>

Who in the league with less assists per game is going to lead this team by example, better? Easy a pure point guard who at least average 6.0 assist a game, at least 15 points in fewer shot attempts, and an inside scoring, center or power forward who can move the ball inside to out. Those are two examples of players who can lead the team better because they don't hog the ball with early shots. They try to move the ball first and find something better. Taking early shots because it might be the only shot available is just a pessimistic way of playing the game. They don't even try to have the discipline to work the ball around or cut or set screens. If that's all on the coach, then I don't like his strategy because it's not good basketball. It's streetball and that won't win games against guys who have better shot distribution inside and out and through different players. To me, Baron Davis is a guy who really drags the team down when he starts taking nine 3 point attempts off the dribble or when it hasn't even moved to any other teammate's hands. That's lazy ball and that costs us wins if the only thing we can do is score because we can't play the defense to stay in the game. When he's playing right and looking to pass, then he's the point guard of our dreams, when he's not, he's a shooting guard that's not making anyone else around him better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Kensaku')</div><div class='quotemain'>WHO? How are we going to "reign him in?" That makes no sense. He's played every game this year, has shown a lot of heart and dedication towards making the team better in all other aspects. It's unfair for your to even speculate that he might be injured. He's gased..."the big 3" got not help from the bench this year.</div>

If you can't reign him in, then he's uncoachable and I don't think you can ever win a ring with a guy that's uncoachable. It's true we don't have a bench, but how do explain the mentality that it's okay to just fire something up with working as a team first? I don't care if you pass the ball to somebody that doesn't score, make sure he passes back. That's simple ball movement where you can fake the defenses out. Are the guys so gassed and beaten and impatient, that they can't set something up so they can try to outwit defenses? That's like saying I'm a student, I'm too tired to do homework, I'm just going to copy the answers from my friend. If I get quizzed on new subject matter in class, I'm in deep trouble. You hope that you aren't quizzed so that you're okay, but that's just being a bad student and you know it's only hurting yourself when you decide to do that. The point is, the guys didn't even try, so now when they get tested against better teams in this western conference, they might not be able to answer. They end up hurting themselves with bad shot selection. Being in a stacked conference has nothing to do how good the warriors can be if they focussed, but they don't because our leader is casting rather than trying to set the curve.

The Warriors play bad like a lottery team when they jack up b.s. at the rim without even attempting to find a better offense and Baron is the biggest culprit because he dominates the ball. You don't give him a flyer because he's the team's star, he's a crap % shooter that tries to do too much. That's not a high basketball player if he's not knowing his limitations and he isn't patient enough to find a better offense.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Kensaku')</div><div class='quotemain'>BD is a smart player despite his shot selection, which btw, I think you emphasize way too much. Since Nellie has been coaching, everyone's been taking unconventional shots, which when going in help the Warriors win and when they don't, they lose. Pretty simple. There's not a happy median where BD not taking quick shots (that don't go in) translates to better basketball with the way the Warriors are coached and play. The Warriors philosophy in the new Nellie era has been that the quick shot might be the best shot available (given their style of play). Okay, okay, so that doesn't mean all his "bad shots" are OK...yes, he takes bad shots, but can you tell me how many times we've lost because of just BD taking those bad shots? Our losses this year have been a pretty cumulative effort, wouldn't you agree? I don't think you can hold BD accountable for all of them even though he is the PG. Like you said, a better supporting cast would help. If we're going to talk about shot selection, we have to bring Nellie into the equation.

Honestly, I don't see a better replacement at the PG position that would be available to us.</div>
Hey, if you don't emphasize shot selection, how are you going to beat teams that deserve to go to the playoffs and can find their shot all day on the Warriors? The conference being stacked has nothing to do with the warriors not using their head to play better ball.

Plus, are you saying teams that don't play defense and can't make stops are the only teams who don't have to worry about %'s (better shot selection)? You cannot score well if you don't find the high % areas on the floor. That's why ball movement is so important if the warriors aren't making stops defensively. I think that is one area the team cumulatively suffers from is that they can't run their fastbreak game if they don't play the D. But besides the defensive problems, the rest of the warriors should be able to find good shots if they work together. Often times in a down game, they don't even try because the point guard is up there jacking. Sjax is probably also a bit guilty of this, but he doesn't dominate the ball and at least he keeps a live dribble and tries to look inside first.

Shot selection is super important. If you can increase your chances of scoring in the halfcourt, why not use it? Instead, they jack up stuff and that will undoubtedly lose games if one person on the team controls the ball and fires up shots before anyone else on this team gets a chance to score it. If it's a team game, so why does one guy take 15 more shot attempts than the next guy without even finding good shot attempts? It's about making moves which shift the defense and create an opening. If it's not there, it's not there, but they don't even try first! That's my point. The Warriors are so quick, they should be able to get lots of different looks at the basket in the halfcourt if they just move off the ball (and this is despite having a scoring inside player). But Mr. point guard doesn't even conduct the offense at times. He just launches without any rebounder under the hoop. This was my problem with Fisher, even though he had a clumsier center to work with.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Kensaku')</div><div class='quotemain'>How about this: would you trade BD for Elton Brand straight up? That's somewhat intriguing to me.</div>
Well first, they'd have to agree to it or they can just both opt out. But if both do agree to it and if we're trying to develop Monta Ellis as a point guard, we'd first need to get somebody to fill the position of true shooting guard (either offseason signing or we rush Marco into starter). Of course, I'd do that. One thing we get as a plus is we don't have to worry about Ellis taking lousy 3's. He may take lousy two's, but it's still a higher % shot if you step in and find the shots you can make in rhythm. Ellis happens to be great at shooting off the dribble, whereas other players like Sjax and Baron can't really deliver consistent performance. Dynamic scorers who are also shooters can shoot off the dribble. To me Sjax and Al are more like set shooters. Baron isn't a real shooter of any kind and he never will be and he should be more like Jason Kidd who is a horrible shooter, but doesn't take the majority of the shots. Baron Davis just needs to be honest enough to make his opponent believe he can punish people if they leave him wide open. If he can't do that, throw it to someone else, and find a place to step in.

What we do have to worry about is turnovers because he isn't the fantastic ballhandler that Baron Davis is, but this is why we need guys to dribble the ball less, and pass a lot more. We should still continue to run, but we should emphasize a better defensive scheme rather than sticking to what we do now because of our lack of size. Also, on offense, guys need to come to the ball or move to the areas where they know the passing lanes will be unobstructed. Playing an inefficient offense is also when guys pound the ball. People have to be moving and creating the passing lanes that they know the point guard can find.

So with some faith that Ellis can handle some of the point guard duty, we can move on to what we acquire in terms of the elite big men we need to be a great team. With Brand on our team we get a guy who, despite an injury that will only leave him half or 3/4's as strong of a leaper that he used to be, can still be an effective player because he knows how to use his body, rebound, score inside, and block shots. He's something that we don't have inside and have never had inside since Dampier provided that 12/12 season with 2 blocks a game. So if we have Elton Brand who can float between power forward and some center, with Biedrins, Brandan Wright, and Al Harrington off the bench. I'd say that's a terrific small ball lineup that can go to halfcourt. We'd get consistency inside the paint, we keep our promising center, a promising power forward rook, and we a coachable youngster in Ellis running the point. All we would need is more experience, keep adding to the bench, and a starting shooting guard. If the warriors really wanted to they can put Sjax as the starting SG, and Harrington as the starting SF. But I think it's better if we get a smaller shooting guard in there and have Harrington come off the bench as a SF.

PG: Monta Ellis, (backup point)
SG: Kelenna Azubuike or Marco Belinelli or free agent
SF: Sjax, Al
PF: Elton Brand, Brandan Wright
C: Andris Biedrins, (backup center).

That's a lot potential scoring inside and out if Beans gives you 10, Brand gives you 18 or 20, Sjax gives you 16 or 20, Kelenna gives you 10 or 12, and Monta gives you 16 or 20. There could be plenty of ways to find a mismatch inside and out.

 

Thanks for such a thoughtful response, CR.

I won't try to drag on this argument too much, but you make some good points and I'll have to succumb to your analysis on many of them.

But, you didn't really answer my question or concern: who, if not Baron, is available in the league that would fit under your criteria of a pure PG that would help the Warriors play better basketball? I don't think there is one.

Sooooo, if we keep Baron...Okay, I now get your point about "reign him in." It makes total sense. Nellie or someone has to be able to get through to Baron so he doesn't waste those possessions. In the long run, it will certainly make the Warriors a better team, both from an execution standpoint to a psychological one. The players will react in both ways.

That being said, which one of the following scenarios do you think is most likely (with no given time line in mind):

1) Replacing Baron with a pure PG
2) Replacing Baron with another position (e.g. Elton Brand)
3) Keeping Baron, make him focus on being a pass-first PG, and continue to develop Monta in that role for the future

Don't get me wrong, I love Baron Davis despite all his flaws. I think he has the tools to enable him to be up there with Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Steve Nash (offense only ). But, I don't know how much faith I have in Nellie's "small ball" to allow him to explore more fundamental basketball.

Do you see Nellie taking a different approach next season, presuming that Brandon Wright will be playing a significant role on the team, as well as Bellinelli (a reliable shooter), giving more targets for Baron to have confidence passing to?

Anyway, I'd rather not ramble. I still would like to read over what you've posted several times as this response doesn't do it justice. Thanks again for posting.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Apr 14 2008, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thanks for such a thoughtful response, CR.

I won't try to drag on this argument too much, but you make some good points and I'll have to succumb to your analysis on many of them.

But, you didn't really answer my question or concern: who, if not Baron, is available in the league that would fit under your criteria of a pure PG that would help the Warriors play better basketball? I don't think there is one.

Sooooo, if we keep Baron...Okay, I now get your point about "reign him in." It makes total sense. Nellie or someone has to be able to get through to Baron so he doesn't waste those possessions. In the long run, it will certainly make the Warriors a better team, both from an execution standpoint to a psychological one. The players will react in both ways.

That being said, which one of the following scenarios do you think is most likely (with no given time line in mind):

1) Replacing Baron with a pure PG
2) Replacing Baron with another position (e.g. Elton Brand)
3) Keeping Baron, make him focus on being a pass-first PG, and continue to develop Monta in that role for the future

Don't get me wrong, I love Baron Davis despite all his flaws. I think he has the tools to enable him to be up there with Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Steve Nash (offense only ). But, I don't know how much faith I have in Nellie's "small ball" to allow him to explore more fundamental basketball.

Do you see Nellie taking a different approach next season, presuming that Brandon Wright will be playing a significant role on the team, as well as Bellinelli (a reliable shooter), giving more targets for Baron to have confidence passing to?

Anyway, I'd rather not ramble. I still would like to read over what you've posted several times as this response doesn't do it justice. Thanks again for posting.</div>

Thanks for the comments, I love talking basketball with you. You know, I'm not sure who would be Baron Davis' replacement... He can be a combo guard like Chauncey Billups or a near-starter, he just needs to do a better job setting the table and playing the D. That's all I want. I would like to have a point guard that's more unselfish than Baron Davis and an inside/outside big man right next to Biedrins. The other game against Memphis I saw an unselfish Baron who took better shots and passed up some shots to find other people. Maybe other guys aren't delivering so he didn't choose to pass, but we won't know because he doesn't pass the ball at times to know if these guys will deliver.

On the Suns tonight: He was overshooting again in the first half, but at least he went inside a little more (missed his free throws, though). Monta Ellis is tearing it up right now (with Baron sitting) so I want to get back to the game.

The key is the Warriors are stepping in and moving a lot more rather than the typical Baron Davis b.s. he pulls when the Warriors are down. Baron ain't Kobe Bryant, so he's got knock that crap off and play the team game. Sjax right now is the only guy I want taking long distance shots with the ball in hand. Maybe Al Harrington. Baron Davis hasn't deserved to shoot that far out or shoot that much, because he's nowhere near the description of a shooter. He's statistically bad like Antoine Walker and Jerry Stackhouse and they're good passers too and they used to score big. The key is knowing when to stop firing and let someone else have the ball. The point guard should be the most unselfish guy right now and when he's overshooting it, we get dug in a big hole that's hard to recover from.

The suns game I'm seeing right now has Baron sitting and the Warriors are already in it after being down by 20. It's called shot selection and Baron just isn't playing disciplined ball. If his former coach, Byron Scott, was trying to get this guy to take better shots or get in better shape and Baron wasn't listening, I doubt Baron will do much better under a new coach that isn't Don Nelson and that won't allow him to just take any shot or do things his own way. So that's where all this animosity towards Baron comes from. I just don't believe we can win a ring with him if we ever got into contention. He's a gunner and I think he'll be volatile at some point. He's stubborn to a fault and it shows on the court and it's probably there off the court. He's got an ego to keep chucking when he's not hitting it. I don't like that in my point guards. It just kills the game if a non-shooter tries to shoot in volume rather than pass. I don't mind guys who chuck ill advised shots, just make it or make sure the situation is warranted to even take the risk.

----

Warriors are now up by 8. Sorry to rant about Baron Davis, he could be tired from playing all those Don Nelson minutes, but I think he's really injured from playing all those minutes. No way could fatigue be screwing with his decision-making. He's trying to play like he was when he was healthy. A fatigued guy would be more unselfish I think.

 

I think one thing to "reign in Baron" is to get another scorer into the starting lineup. Baron Davis had to be a much bigger scorer, compared to the end of last season with Jason Richardson, perhaps the Warriors most proficient scorer. Also when players like Al Harrington and all the players off the bench cannot make a shot, someone has to step it up, and usually that is Baron Davis. So in hindsight perhaps there have been games where Baron has blown it by not being as much of a PG as he could have been. But there have also been games where his free flowing and scoring drive has helped even with "bad" shot selection to win games. I also think that there could be the addition of another PG to add to the team to help bring in a player to run a more team offense/passing scheme. Then Baron could even be the SG and then give the team more ball handlers on the floor. But I think there are a lot more problems with the team's shot selection woes and lack of ball movement outside of just Baron. Surely Baron, I suppose could improve and change his game in some aspects. But I don't think it's anything major that says we need to get rid of Baron. Just give Baron something more to work with - I'd put a lot of the weight on players like Harrington and the unproductive bench.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clif25 @ Apr 14 2008, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think one thing to "reign in Baron" is to get another scorer into the starting lineup. Baron Davis had to be a much bigger scorer, compared to the end of last season with Jason Richardson, perhaps the Warriors most proficient scorer. Also when players like Al Harrington and all the players off the bench cannot make a shot, someone has to step it up, and usually that is Baron Davis. So in hindsight perhaps there have been games where Baron has blown it by not being as much of a PG as he could have been. But there have also been games where his free flowing and scoring drive has helped even with "bad" shot selection to win games. I also think that there could be the addition of another PG to add to the team to help bring in a player to run a more team offense/passing scheme. Then Baron could even be the SG and then give the team more ball handlers on the floor. But I think there are a lot more problems with the team's shot selection woes and lack of ball movement outside of just Baron. Surely Baron, I suppose could improve and change his game in some aspects. But I don't think it's anything major that says we need to get rid of Baron. Just give Baron something more to work with - I'd put a lot of the weight on players like Harrington and the unproductive bench.</div>

That's a fair look at Baron and I certainly agree about Harrington and some of the other bench guys. I guess I was looking at Baron monetarily in addition to some things he's been consistently known for. Among them: bad shooting %'s, and durability which could an issue later. But beneath the surface, he may be the glue that is keeping the team together. So I wouldn't want to make that call to can him. But I certainly feel that way if he's a make or break option in regards to salary cap and changing our style of play. I'm not thinking about his positives so much as his liabilities. I keep thinking of having 5 players who can do more together than one guy by himself. That's what I try to think of rather than borderline superstars who dominate the ball. My feeling was that even if there was no Jrich, why not try to optimize the other players around him? Instead his shot selection went two attempts more than last year and he appeared on observation to pass less (forget assist numbers because its not accurate of how unselfish he was playing). Nevermind the fact that Ellis was your 50% fg scorer or guys like Al and Sjax and Biedrins were heating up. One might think Baron was trying to pad his stats for something or who knows.

 

Damn, that game was hard to watch for 2.5 quarters. Warriors got out ahead as usual, but they just didn't know how to penetrate the zone. Either too lazy or too tired to find a good shot, they either hoisted them or played careless. And when the Nuggets came back, they started panicking.

The energy in the building was great though. Nothings more fun than Stephen Jackson waving him arms to pump up the crowd... and having the crowd go so crazy you can barely hear anything. Best fans in the L.