Just to weigh in on the Rashard Lewis argument, yes he was overpaid. However, it could be worse (see Grant Hill). His presence has helped make Hedo the player he is today. Hedo no longer has the opposition's best perimeter defender on him and the Hedo-Shard combo has helped pick apart defenses. Also, Lewis has helped spread the floor for Dwight Howard, who has also improved this season. Without Lewis, you have the same Orlando Magic team as last year. The one that was horrible at three point shooting and couldn't spread the floor to save their life. Now, the Magic have set an NBA record, hitting five or more threes in 80 consecutive games this season. Our offense has been rejuvenated with Lewis and while he may have been overpaid, I'm fine with that. We have a core of Howard, Lewis, and Hedo locked up for several years and that's all that matters. Plus, we still have our MLE each season and already have players interested in signing with us (Corey Maggette, Jason Williams, etc.). Otis has done a good job constructing this team. He dealt Ariza for Maurice Evans and Brian Cook, an amazing trade for Orlando considering Ariza has foot problems and Evans is everything that Trevor was PLUS a jumpshot. Otis has also done a great job with keeping our players happy (except maybe Redick but honestly, who cares? ).
I think the Magic did a terrific job this year. But when I heard how much they payed for Lewis, I couldn't help but think that was a mistake. I have been watching him since he came in the league and I never thought he was worth that. But let's see how he does in the Playoffs. He may just prove me wrong. One thing is for sure: He better help them beat the Raptors...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swish @ Apr 15 2008, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just to weigh in on the Rashard Lewis argument, yes he was overpaid. However, it could be worse (see Grant Hill). His presence has helped make Hedo the player he is today. Hedo no longer has the opposition's best perimeter defender on him and the Hedo-Shard combo has helped pick apart defenses. Also, Lewis has helped spread the floor for Dwight Howard, who has also improved this season. Without Lewis, you have the same Orlando Magic team as last year. The one that was horrible at three point shooting and couldn't spread the floor to save their life. Now, the Magic have set an NBA record, hitting five or more threes in 80 consecutive games this season. Our offense has been rejuvenated with Lewis and while he may have been overpaid, I'm fine with that. We have a core of Howard, Lewis, and Hedo locked up for several years and that's all that matters. Plus, we still have our MLE each season and already have players interested in signing with us (Corey Maggette, Jason Williams, etc.). Otis has done a good job constructing this team. He dealt Ariza for Maurice Evans and Brian Cook, an amazing trade for Orlando considering Ariza has foot problems and Evans is everything that Trevor was PLUS a jumpshot. Otis has also done a great job with keeping our players happy (except maybe Redick but honestly, who cares? ).</div> You want to go back in time and have your GM sign Vince Carter for 13M instead? This is the exact point. Wasting time dicking around looking for bargains when you have a superstar player ready to win is stupid. If you identify a player who makes your team significantly better you don't hesitate. You pay what it takes. And I find it hilarious that a bunch of Nets fans feel comfortable criticizing that move when it so clearly worked and their GM failed them so miserably by being a pussy and never showing that kind of urgency. And you are right that Otis isn't done. Orlando is a hot spot for free agents and I'm sure veterans who receive buyouts would be very interested in going there (with the sun and no income tax) as long as they have a shot at winning.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You want to go back in time and have your GM sign Vince Carter for 13M instead? This is the exact point. Wasting time dicking around looking for bargains when you have a superstar player ready to win is stupid. If you identify a player who makes your team significantly better you don't hesitate. You pay what it takes. And I find it hilarious that a bunch of Nets fans feel comfortable criticizing that move when it so clearly worked and their GM failed them so miserably by being a pussy and never showing that kind of urgency. And you are right that Otis isn't done. Orlando is a hot spot for free agents and I'm sure veterans who receive buyouts would be very interested in going there (with the sun and no income tax) as long as they have a shot at winning.</div> Let's be somewhat realistic here Ghoti. Thorn never had the dominant bigman like Howard to build around and he didn't have the cap space to play the free agent market the same way. I also think Otis overpaid. And stupidly if you consider he never needed to do the S&T with Seattle just so he can pay Lewis even more. On a financial level that was a similar move to Thorn overpaying Carter with no competition.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netted @ Apr 15 2008, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You want to go back in time and have your GM sign Vince Carter for 13M instead? This is the exact point. Wasting time dicking around looking for bargains when you have a superstar player ready to win is stupid. If you identify a player who makes your team significantly better you don't hesitate. You pay what it takes. And I find it hilarious that a bunch of Nets fans feel comfortable criticizing that move when it so clearly worked and their GM failed them so miserably by being a pussy and never showing that kind of urgency. And you are right that Otis isn't done. Orlando is a hot spot for free agents and I'm sure veterans who receive buyouts would be very interested in going there (with the sun and no income tax) as long as they have a shot at winning.</div> Let's be somewhat realistic here Ghoti. Thorn never had the dominant bigman like Howard to build around and he didn't have the cap space to play the free agent market the same way. </div> He had Jason Kidd, who wasted away here because Thorn showed no urgency to win. The Nets should have been a title contender every season. Kidd held up until he was 34. That's longer than anyone had a right to expect. You can't play it cautious like Thorn did when the clock is running. Smith understands that. He's doing it right.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Apr 15 2008, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dino33 @ Apr 15 2008, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Really? How was Hedo doing before someone had to guard Lewis? They work well as a UNIT.</div> oh so they work well as a unit, now lets all overpay the WHOLE unit. Without one of the core players, the team will lose more games. </div> This makes no sense. They signed one player. It was a great move. Without it they wouldn't even be in the playoffs and another year of Howard's Magic career would have been wasted. You bunch of Rod Thorns would have signed Jason Kapono at half the cost and lost 20 more games and blamed the coach or Battie's injury or some other bullspit. </div> Well Hedo is a very important core player for the Magic like Rashard. When they will need to re-sign Hedo is a couple of years, and if he demands 100 mill over 5 years, your thinking is they should give it to him, because he fits well with the team? </div> They have lots of time to prepare for that. How is that a reason not to sign Lewis? </div> Well a team owner usually will only spend so much money. Overpaying players right now for 6 years, means that if they need to add more pieces it will cost them double. They have Lewis (19 mill), and Dwight (14.5 mill), and Jameer (6 mill), and Tony Battie, JJ Redick, and Brian Cook all making a combined total of 52 mill. Let's say they can re-sign some players cheaply, which they probably won't. But best case scenario: Arroyo 2 mill, Bogans 2 mill, Mo Evans, 2 mill, Dooling 1.5 mill., Foyle 1.5 mill (vet's min). So that would be 9 mill. Add another rookie at 2 mill. So the roster costs 63 mill, I think the Luxury tax is at 66 mill. So if the Magic want to keep Hedo paying let's say 3/4 of what they paid another core member, so at 15 mill per year for 6 years. The Magic's salary would be 78 mill (and increase with time, with Dwight's, Rashard's, and Jameer's contracts). So dishing out about 90 mill per year. And if anyone important gets injured they still have no big man depth, and have too much money invested in a couple players.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swish @ Apr 15 2008, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just to weigh in on the Rashard Lewis argument, yes he was overpaid. However, it could be worse (see Grant Hill). His presence has helped make Hedo the player he is today. Hedo no longer has the opposition's best perimeter defender on him and the Hedo-Shard combo has helped pick apart defenses. Also, Lewis has helped spread the floor for Dwight Howard, who has also improved this season. Without Lewis, you have the same Orlando Magic team as last year. The one that was horrible at three point shooting and couldn't spread the floor to save their life. Now, the Magic have set an NBA record, hitting five or more threes in 80 consecutive games this season. Our offense has been rejuvenated with Lewis and while he may have been overpaid, I'm fine with that. We have a core of Howard, Lewis, and Hedo locked up for several years and that's all that matters. Plus, we still have our MLE each season and already have players interested in signing with us (Corey Maggette, Jason Williams, etc.). Otis has done a good job constructing this team. He dealt Ariza for Maurice Evans and Brian Cook, an amazing trade for Orlando considering Ariza has foot problems and Evans is everything that Trevor was PLUS a jumpshot. Otis has also done a great job with keeping our players happy (except maybe Redick but honestly, who cares? ).</div> Will the Magic's owner allow your GM to use the MLE, if your team will be well over the cap just to re-sign Hedo? (probably looking at 73 mill in salaries to keep Hedo on the Magic with a similar roster)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Apr 15 2008, 02:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Apr 15 2008, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dino33 @ Apr 15 2008, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Really? How was Hedo doing before someone had to guard Lewis? They work well as a UNIT.</div> oh so they work well as a unit, now lets all overpay the WHOLE unit. Without one of the core players, the team will lose more games. </div> This makes no sense. They signed one player. It was a great move. Without it they wouldn't even be in the playoffs and another year of Howard's Magic career would have been wasted. You bunch of Rod Thorns would have signed Jason Kapono at half the cost and lost 20 more games and blamed the coach or Battie's injury or some other bullspit. </div> Well Hedo is a very important core player for the Magic like Rashard. When they will need to re-sign Hedo is a couple of years, and if he demands 100 mill over 5 years, your thinking is they should give it to him, because he fits well with the team? </div> They have lots of time to prepare for that. How is that a reason not to sign Lewis? </div> Well a team owner usually will only spend so much money. Overpaying players right now for 6 years, means that if they need to add more pieces it will cost them double. They have Lewis (19 mill), and Dwight (14.5 mill), and Jameer (6 mill), and Tony Battie, JJ Redick, and Brian Cook all making a combined total of 52 mill. Let's say they can re-sign some players cheaply, which they probably won't. But best case scenario: Arroyo 2 mill, Bogans 2 mill, Mo Evans, 2 mill, Dooling 1.5 mill., Foyle 1.5 mill (vet's min). So that would be 9 mill. Add another rookie at 2 mill. So the roster costs 63 mill, I think the Luxury tax is at 66 mill. So if the Magic want to keep Hedo paying let's say 3/4 of what they paid another core member, so at 15 mill per year for 6 years. The Magic's salary would be 78 mill (and increase with time, with Dwight's, Rashard's, and Jameer's contracts). So dishing out about 90 mill per year. And if anyone important gets injured they still have no big man depth, and have too much money invested in a couple players. </div> You have no idea if that's the plan or what the owner has told Smith. And you can't discount the value of winning this year and being a good team and the effect that has on free agents and bargain vets. Not to mention that if the team sucks Howard might start making noise. He can still leave before he reaches his prime.
I'm SOOOO happy we didn't end up with Carter in Orlando. The guy is washed up and I would hate to have him. He is scared of contact and is nowhere near the player he was earlier in his career. Rashard >>> Carter as a Magic fan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netted @ Apr 15 2008, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You want to go back in time and have your GM sign Vince Carter for 13M instead? This is the exact point. Wasting time dicking around looking for bargains when you have a superstar player ready to win is stupid. If you identify a player who makes your team significantly better you don't hesitate. You pay what it takes. And I find it hilarious that a bunch of Nets fans feel comfortable criticizing that move when it so clearly worked and their GM failed them so miserably by being a pussy and never showing that kind of urgency. And you are right that Otis isn't done. Orlando is a hot spot for free agents and I'm sure veterans who receive buyouts would be very interested in going there (with the sun and no income tax) as long as they have a shot at winning.</div> Let's be somewhat realistic here Ghoti. Thorn never had the dominant bigman like Howard to build around and he didn't have the cap space to play the free agent market the same way. </div> He had Jason Kidd, who wasted away here because Thorn showed no urgency to win. The Nets should have been a title contender every season. Kidd held up until he was 34. That's longer than anyone had a right to expect. You can't play it cautious like Thorn did when the clock is running. Smith understands that. He's doing it right. </div> The real chink in your thinking is continuing to overvalue Kidd. He was NEVER as good as you think he was -- certainly no where near as valuable as Dwight Howard is right now, let alone what he will be in 3 years -- and no team that claimed Kidd as their best player was ever going to win a title. When you don't penetrate in the half court, don't draw fouls, can't shoot with any consistency, and increasingly can't contain quick point guards, you are not going to lead a championship team, even if they fit your limited strengths like a glove.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 15 2008, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You have no idea if that's the plan or what the owner has told Smith. And you can't discount the value of winning this year and being a good team and the effect that has on free agents and bargain vets. Not to mention that if the team sucks Howard might start making noise. He can still leave before he reaches his prime.</div> First off, Howard is signed for 6 years, which is a long time. And even if the team had to lose an additional 5-10 games by having say a Matt Barnes, Maggette, Matt Carrol, Mike Miller, whoever it is alongside Dwight and Hedo. Then the year after they could go after a FA and with the saved money not spent on Rashard add an additional one as well.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The real chink in your thinking is continuing to overvalue Kidd. He was NEVER as good as you think he was -- certainly no where near as valuable as Dwight Howard is right now, let alone what he will be in 3 years -- and no team that claimed Kidd as their best player was ever going to win a title. When you don't penetrate in the half court, don't draw fouls, can't shoot with any consistency, and increasingly can't contain quick point guards, you are not going to lead a championship team, even if they fit your limited strengths like a glove.</div> Kidd's team has gotten to the Finals and competed with a team with Shaq. Howard hasn't, and probably won't in the next 6 years until Rashard's contract is finished. Kidd > Howard.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swish @ Apr 15 2008, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm SOOOO happy we didn't end up with Carter in Orlando. The guy is washed up and I would hate to have him. He is scared of contact and is nowhere near the player he was earlier in his career. Rashard >>> Carter as a Magic fan.</div> Yes adding a 6'10 guy who takes half his shots from beyond the arc while having another 6'10 guy who also plays around the arc. I personally think the Magic should have went for Carter and they'd be in the same position but either way they'd be missing a forward or in this case, a gaurd.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swish @ Apr 15 2008, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm SOOOO happy we didn't end up with Carter in Orlando. The guy is washed up and I would hate to have him. He is scared of contact and is nowhere near the player he was earlier in his career. Rashard >>> Carter as a Magic fan.</div> Lol @ washed up. And yes of course because Rashard is the definition of a player who attacks the basket with his 544 attempted 3's on the year and 3.2 FTA/game. Man how could anyone not see that Rashard is clearly more aggressive attacking the basket than Vince who has attempted 263 3's on the year and almost 6 FTA/game. Oh and lets not forget how aggressive Rashard is on the glass, I mean how can you not be impressed with a guy who is 6'10 and averages 5.4 RPG compared to a 6'6 guard who averages 6 RPG?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He was NEVER as good as you think he was</div> Are you on crack? Stick to your love for Vince Carter. Go on and pretend that he actually did something significant in his career, or that he's the same great player he never was.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Balla 15 @ Apr 15 2008, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swish @ Apr 15 2008, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm SOOOO happy we didn't end up with Carter in Orlando. The guy is washed up and I would hate to have him. He is scared of contact and is nowhere near the player he was earlier in his career. Rashard >>> Carter as a Magic fan.</div> Lol @ washed up. And yes of course because Rashard is the definition of a player who attacks the basket with his 544 attempted 3's on the year and 3.2 FTA/game. Man how could anyone not see that Rashard is clearly more aggressive attacking the basket than Vince who has attempted 263 3's on the year and almost 6 FTA/game. Oh and lets not forget how aggressive Rashard is on the glass, I mean how can you not be impressed with a guy who is 6'10 and averages 5.4 RPG compared to a 6'6 guard who averages 6 RPG? </div> pretty stats <> wins Sublimating one's self for the good of the team = wins
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Joker @ Apr 15 2008, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He was NEVER as good as you think he was</div> Are you on crack? Stick to your love for Vince Carter. Go on and pretend that he actually did something significant in his career, or that he's the same great player he never was. </div> No, but sobriety has a wonderful way of exposing those who have been inebriated on the Kidd coolaid around these parts. I'm still waiting for someone to explain how the Nets' failures these last 5 years are any less an indictment of his limitations as a player and leader than they are an indicment of Carter's for the last 3.5.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 15 2008, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>pretty stats <> wins Sublimating one's self for the good of the team = wins</div> Yes, and the Nets would have been SOOOOO much better off if Vince drove less, got to the foul line less, and sacrificed his offense for the sake of . . . of . . . of Josh Boone or Nenad Krstic or Richard Jefferson, or, better yet, Jason Kidd and Boki Nachbar! Think how much more scintillating their offense would have been if Vince had just "sublimated himself" so Jason and Boki could jack more 3s!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 15 2008, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Balla 15 @ Apr 15 2008, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swish @ Apr 15 2008, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm SOOOO happy we didn't end up with Carter in Orlando. The guy is washed up and I would hate to have him. He is scared of contact and is nowhere near the player he was earlier in his career. Rashard >>> Carter as a Magic fan.</div> Lol @ washed up. And yes of course because Rashard is the definition of a player who attacks the basket with his 544 attempted 3's on the year and 3.2 FTA/game. Man how could anyone not see that Rashard is clearly more aggressive attacking the basket than Vince who has attempted 263 3's on the year and almost 6 FTA/game. Oh and lets not forget how aggressive Rashard is on the glass, I mean how can you not be impressed with a guy who is 6'10 and averages 5.4 RPG compared to a 6'6 guard who averages 6 RPG? </div> pretty stats <> wins Sublimating one's self for the good of the team = wins </div> I'm not one to bring stats into an argument for the sake of bringing them in because I know there's many players around the league that put up good numbers on bad teams. While at the same time their are players who sacrifice personal accolades to have success. But can you honestly expect me to take someone's opinion seriously when he's calling Vince soft and the player he's defending is way softer? Am I to believe that if Rashard was on a losing team that he would be attempting less threes and getting to the line more? Possibly more FT's but probably even more 3's because he would get the ball more. Lets be honest though, if someone is going to call Vince soft while defending Rashard Lewis he needs to be called out.
