<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>There’s still the usual carping about Vince Carter, just less of it. If there was one positive that emerged after the Jason Kidd trade, it was Vince Carter’s decision to take on the mantle of team leader … both on and off the court, particularly with younger players. Rod Thorn couldn’t have been more effusive in his praise Monday, even citing Carter’s defense at season’s end.</div> Source
and you know this how? by watching him on tv? have you played basketball with vince carter? anyway, im glad he's at least trying to be a vet. I agree with his comments that he is a legit no. 1 but not a franchise player though. We need a low post weapon and shooters. Those play to VC's strengths 800% since I guess Thron is asserting that this is now Vince's team (oh joy...)
At least if they build around Vince Carter they will have some kind of direction. Better than just a mish-mash of incompatible players like the Nets have had for the last six years.
Carter has really upped the pressure on himself for next year by playing so incredibly well after the trade (and on a bum ankle, yet.) The grit and intensity was impressive, but most impressive to me was his defense, which I thought was the best on the team, post trade. Glad to see Thorn acknowledge that as Vince has rarely gotten credit in those games or stretches of games when he's played good defense before. I suspect the extra motivation provided by the Kidd trade (which was in many ways a direct repudiation of Vince by Kidd) will carryover next year, so I think he's up to the pressure of leading a team, at least for next season. I sense that he's aware of his shrinking opportunity to build a legacy as a winner and not just as a highly talented, entertaining player. If he can stay healthy, I believe his best all-round, full season of excellent basketball is ahead of him. But he absolutely needs a couple of reliable, high caliber shooters and another big that he (and Devin) can target off of drives and pick and rolls.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (purplehaze89 @ Apr 22 2008, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>and you know this how? by watching him on tv? have you played basketball with vince carter? anyway, im glad he's at least trying to be a vet. I agree with his comments that he is a legit no. 1 but not a franchise player though. We need a low post weapon and shooters. Those play to VC's strengths 800% since I guess Thron is asserting that this is now Vince's team (oh joy...)</div> by judging the past teams he was consider the leader on. His attitude and demeanor. Look at the younger generation of leaders Chris Paul and Lebron. When they get on the court they are not just trying to beat their opponents. They are trying to destroy them and piss on their graves when they're finish. You look at Lebron in the playoffs and you have to be amazed at what this kid and I emphasize A FREAKING KID. Who already has it in his head I'm do what ever the hell I have to win and I will carry this team on shoulders. That is a leader. Someone who will not accept losing. Who hates it and the franchise knows how much he hates it that they will do whatever they can to make sure it doesn't become a habit. Carter has already admitted he does not have what you would call a killer instinct and on a team full of young players I don't think a player who is gracious loser is something you want to pass on as acceptable. As someone said right now VC needs to be in a situation where he like Utah where he is not expected to be the leader or to put an entire franchise on his back. but to answer your question all I have to do is look at now and the past and until something different happens I will gladly eat my words with a side of french fries and a chocolate shake.
I'm sort of wondering if the whole team, except for Vince, simply gave up after the Kidd trade and the losing streak.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>by judging the past teams he was consider the leader on. His attitude and demeanor.</div> his first 6 full seasons in Toronto, he was the leader and he was doing just what Tmac is doing in Houston. Playing very well, but the supporting cast around him just couldnt do it. People like Loren Woods, Lonny Baxter, D-League players basically. People forget about year 6. It was just like this most recent year. Around 22ppg, and a true team leader. At the end of the year, there were rumblings that Vince was so mad at management, he wanted to win NOW and that team was clearly not close to winning. But they were happy with him. i still have interviews, where he is acting VERY VERY immature and punkish (meloish). very surprising. TO fans dont hate Vince for the 1st 6 years at least they shouldnt.... It was that summer, and those last 20 games which is what people look at, and ONLY that, not the 6 years where you knew he wanted to win and gave it his all. Thost last 20 games were pretty bad, and I wont get into it. All ill say is that its not as clean cut as "vince tanked it"...I watched all 20 in their entirety, and even went to 1 of them live and watched vince the whole time cause i knew he was about to leave. when he came to jersey, in 05, in 06, and parts of 07, his demeanor and attitude were great and he kinda was the leader even though Jason was the real leader. in 1st half of 08, he was not the leader. he was reduced to a scrub. i think that has to do with the new offense, jason kidd wanting to leave, richard jefferson stepping up his role, vinces bad ankle, and just vince not playing well...i can admit that cause it was obvious. 2nd half of 08, he was stellear. old vince. pretty much 24ppg, 6rbs, 5assts, 2stls, 1blk, 45%, 50% from 3...everything you could want in a player. and he did it all on one ankle. he said all the right things in the locker room, he was optimistic and he redeemed himself in the eyes of the new york/jersey media and analysis. and his defense was great too. they commented that every game pretty much. so at this point in his career, 31, he is putting his entire game together, and with the leadership and defense coming a long way. it looks like for the rest of his career, he will have a very very good all around game. he has come a long way since the VC in TO. for good, in my eyes at least. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Look at the younger generation of leaders Chris Paul and Lebron. When they get on the court they are not just trying to beat their opponents. They are trying to destroy them and piss on their graves when they're finish. You look at Lebron in the playoffs and you have to be amazed at what this kid and I emphasize A FREAKING KID. Who already has it in his head I'm do what ever the hell I have to win and I will carry this team on shoulders. That is a leader. Someone who will not accept losing. Who hates it and the franchise knows how much he hates it that they will do whatever they can to make sure it doesn't become a habit. Carter has already admitted he does not have what you would call a killer instinct and on a team full of young players I don't think a player who is gracious loser is something you want to pass on as acceptable.</div> Cant argue there. he is not like CP3 or Lebron. They are different kinds of players. Better in a lot of ways. Vince has NEVER had that killer instinct. he has had it in spurts. in high school and college he never had it. he was taught differently and he just naturally is a really nice guy who is not like lebron or mj or kobe, scowling and killing you. there is no point saying that...cause hes not and never been. he does laugh at losing a lot and smile a lot during losing. i know TO fans really hate that and im sure nets fans hate it too. cant blame them...cant defend vince there. he does it. but i do know he also does show a lot of anger and disappointment and if you watch his pre and post game interviews like i did, you will see that. and lawrence frank talked about how in the locker room, where we DONT see him, he is true leader, leading this young guys and hes doing it great. so there is a vince we dont see...on the bus, on the plane, in the locker room. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As someone said right now VC needs to be in a situation where he like Utah where he is not expected to be the leader or to put an entire franchise on his back.</div> i agree. vince has gotten the individual glory. his best shot at winning a ring is on a team with a great supporting cast and other leaders, where he doesnt have to be THE guy. he tried that, he did a lot of good. but never past the 2nd round. he is a player who can win a 1st round series and half of a 2nd round series, that is who he is over his career. vince should be the paul pierce on a boston-like team. he is VERY VERY VERY unselfish and he proved that this year by WILLINGLY coming off the bench after he got injured. people forget that it seems, L frank talked about it at the time about how great it is to have vince accept that and "do whatever is best for the team". <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>but to answer your question all I have to do is look at now and the past and until something different happens I will gladly eat my words with a side of french fries and a chocolate shake.</div> i am glad you bring up a lot of good points but your not the typical message board guy going 'DUHHH VC SUCKS, HE IS A P*SSY AND SOFT AND A BABY etc". i agree with your points mostly. here is mine I hope you will get: vc is not kobe or lebron or cp3. but thats not a bad thing. vc is never going to be like them. but thats not a bad thing. vc has the talent of those players but an unselfish attitude about it...he TRUELY does care about the team more than himself. sometimes thats good, sometimes thats bad and ends up hurting the team. but that is who he is, and that is who hes always gonna be. he will show it in spurts, but in the end, it all comes down to a TEAM game. vince knows that. vince can only take a franchise so far. i think he should be on a team that can win now where he can seriously help them and not be like Jerry Stackhouse on dallas, but like paul and ray on boston. KG couldnt do it in minni, Ray couldnt do it in seattle, and paul certainly couldnt do it in boston. tmac couldnt do it in Orlando, baron couldnt do it in new orleans, kobe couldnt do it in LA (until they got gasol and fish and bynum!) so with that i say, vince couldnt do it in TO. 1 player cant win you a ring..the exception is lebron cause hes a monster. there is no shame in that, thats what im saying dude. the only argument i can see to all i said is: "then why is vince getting paid like a franchise player if he isnt" for that, i really dont have an answer. sorry. youve got me there. as you can tell, im an optimistic guy. i really dont like to dwell on the negatives as a player but rather focus on the game of basketball and the different personalities that surround it. its more fun to be optimistic than it is to always point out the negatives. maybe Rick Kalma (yeah sorry...quoting him, haha) said it best about vince being a hall of fame player: "dont focus on what he has not done. and dont focus on what his weaknesses are. just behold the highlights, the stats and the resume......vince is 31 years old, hes averaging 23.8 pts for his career. that is the 18th best scoring average in the history of the nba. and vince, at 31, has a nice career point total at 16,094 (more since he said it)..if vince remains at or above 20ppg until the age of 35, which is NOT farfetched at all, he will be at 23,000pts for his career. now 19 players in nba history have gone 23,000 or more. 18 of those 19 are either in the hall of fame, or locks to go to the hall of fame. (since then, dantley has gone in the hall of fame so thats 19/19)" maybe thats why hes a franchise $$$ guy. he can score with the best of em, and play a true team game. he definitely is a top 15...10 if hes healthy player in the nba. hes not cp3 of kobe or lebron, but there is no shame in being behind them. vince is vince. i hope you can look at him a little better after reading this . thanks for reading it everyone..those who did. *phew*
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaxaMillion711 @ Apr 23 2008, 02:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>by judging the past teams he was consider the leader on. His attitude and demeanor.</div> his first 6 full seasons in Toronto, he was the leader and he was doing just what Tmac is doing in Houston. Playing very well, but the supporting cast around him just couldnt do it. People like Loren Woods, Lonny Baxter, D-League players basically. People forget about year 6. It was just like this most recent year. Around 22ppg, and a true team leader. At the end of the year, there were rumblings that Vince was so mad at management, he wanted to win NOW and that team was clearly not close to winning. But they were happy with him. i still have interviews, where he is acting VERY VERY immature and punkish (meloish). very surprising. TO fans dont hate Vince for the 1st 6 years at least they shouldnt.... It was that summer, and those last 20 games which is what people look at, and ONLY that, not the 6 years where you knew he wanted to win and gave it his all. Thost last 20 games were pretty bad, and I wont get into it. All ill say is that its not as clean cut as "vince tanked it"...I watched all 20 in their entirety, and even went to 1 of them live and watched vince the whole time cause i knew he was about to leave. when he came to jersey, in 05, in 06, and parts of 07, his demeanor and attitude were great and he kinda was the leader even though Jason was the real leader. in 1st half of 08, he was not the leader. he was reduced to a scrub. i think that has to do with the new offense, jason kidd wanting to leave, richard jefferson stepping up his role, vinces bad ankle, and just vince not playing well...i can admit that cause it was obvious. 2nd half of 08, he was stellear. old vince. pretty much 24ppg, 6rbs, 5assts, 2stls, 1blk, 45%, 50% from 3...everything you could want in a player. and he did it all on one ankle. he said all the right things in the locker room, he was optimistic and he redeemed himself in the eyes of the new york/jersey media and analysis. and his defense was great too. they commented that every game pretty much. so at this point in his career, 31, he is putting his entire game together, and with the leadership and defense coming a long way. it looks like for the rest of his career, he will have a very very good all around game. he has come a long way since the VC in TO. for good, in my eyes at least. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Look at the younger generation of leaders Chris Paul and Lebron. When they get on the court they are not just trying to beat their opponents. They are trying to destroy them and piss on their graves when they're finish. You look at Lebron in the playoffs and you have to be amazed at what this kid and I emphasize A FREAKING KID. Who already has it in his head I'm do what ever the hell I have to win and I will carry this team on shoulders. That is a leader. Someone who will not accept losing. Who hates it and the franchise knows how much he hates it that they will do whatever they can to make sure it doesn't become a habit. Carter has already admitted he does not have what you would call a killer instinct and on a team full of young players I don't think a player who is gracious loser is something you want to pass on as acceptable.</div> Cant argue there. he is not like CP3 or Lebron. They are different kinds of players. Better in a lot of ways. Vince has NEVER had that killer instinct. he has had it in spurts. in high school and college he never had it. he was taught differently and he just naturally is a really nice guy who is not like lebron or mj or kobe, scowling and killing you. there is no point saying that...cause hes not and never been. he does laugh at losing a lot and smile a lot during losing. i know TO fans really hate that and im sure nets fans hate it too. cant blame them...cant defend vince there. he does it. but i do know he also does show a lot of anger and disappointment and if you watch his pre and post game interviews like i did, you will see that. and lawrence frank talked about how in the locker room, where we DONT see him, he is true leader, leading this young guys and hes doing it great. so there is a vince we dont see...on the bus, on the plane, in the locker room. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As someone said right now VC needs to be in a situation where he like Utah where he is not expected to be the leader or to put an entire franchise on his back.</div> i agree. vince has gotten the individual glory. his best shot at winning a ring is on a team with a great supporting cast and other leaders, where he doesnt have to be THE guy. he tried that, he did a lot of good. but never past the 2nd round. he is a player who can win a 1st round series and half of a 2nd round series, that is who he is over his career. vince should be the paul pierce on a boston-like team. he is VERY VERY VERY unselfish and he proved that this year by WILLINGLY coming off the bench after he got injured. people forget that it seems, L frank talked about it at the time about how great it is to have vince accept that and "do whatever is best for the team". <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>but to answer your question all I have to do is look at now and the past and until something different happens I will gladly eat my words with a side of french fries and a chocolate shake.</div> i am glad you bring up a lot of good points but your not the typical message board guy going 'DUHHH VC SUCKS, HE IS A P*SSY AND SOFT AND A BABY etc". i agree with your points mostly. here is mine I hope you will get: vc is not kobe or lebron or cp3. but thats not a bad thing. vc is never going to be like them. but thats not a bad thing. vc has the talent of those players but an unselfish attitude about it...he TRUELY does care about the team more than himself. sometimes thats good, sometimes thats bad and ends up hurting the team. but that is who he is, and that is who hes always gonna be. he will show it in spurts, but in the end, it all comes down to a TEAM game. vince knows that. vince can only take a franchise so far. i think he should be on a team that can win now where he can seriously help them and not be like Jerry Stackhouse on dallas, but like paul and ray on boston. KG couldnt do it in minni, Ray couldnt do it in seattle, and paul certainly couldnt do it in boston. tmac couldnt do it in Orlando, baron couldnt do it in new orleans, kobe couldnt do it in LA (until they got gasol and fish and bynum!) so with that i say, vince couldnt do it in TO. 1 player cant win you a ring..the exception is lebron cause hes a monster. there is no shame in that, thats what im saying dude. the only argument i can see to all i said is: "then why is vince getting paid like a franchise player if he isnt" for that, i really dont have an answer. sorry. youve got me there. as you can tell, im an optimistic guy. i really dont like to dwell on the negatives as a player but rather focus on the game of basketball and the different personalities that surround it. its more fun to be optimistic than it is to always point out the negatives. maybe Rick Kalma (yeah sorry...quoting him, haha) said it best about vince being a hall of fame player: "dont focus on what he has not done. and dont focus on what his weaknesses are. just behold the highlights, the stats and the resume......vince is 31 years old, hes averaging 23.8 pts for his career. that is the 18th best scoring average in the history of the nba. and vince, at 31, has a nice career point total at 16,094 (more since he said it)..if vince remains at or above 20ppg until the age of 35, which is NOT farfetched at all, he will be at 23,000pts for his career. now 19 players in nba history have gone 23,000 or more. 18 of those 19 are either in the hall of fame, or locks to go to the hall of fame. (since then, dantley has gone in the hall of fame so thats 19/19)" maybe thats why hes a franchise $$$ guy. he can score with the best of em, and play a true team game. he definitely is a top 15...10 if hes healthy player in the nba. hes not cp3 of kobe or lebron, but there is no shame in being behind them. vince is vince. i hope you can look at him a little better after reading this . thanks for reading it everyone..those who did. *phew* </div> your right. I did forget that VC basically led the nets in to playoffs. Sure it was the eighth seed but while Kidd was dreaming of playing in Dallas and Minn. VC did what he could with an injured RJ I will fully comment later but you did bring up some good points. So I take my back my statement. VC can be leader but he can only get you so far though I still do not like the whole gracious loser thing. good points
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaxaMillion711 @ Apr 23 2008, 02:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>by judging the past teams he was consider the leader on. His attitude and demeanor.</div> his first 6 full seasons in Toronto, he was the leader and he was doing just what Tmac is doing in Houston. Playing very well, but the supporting cast around him just couldnt do it. People like Loren Woods, Lonny Baxter, D-League players basically. People forget about year 6. It was just like this most recent year. Around 22ppg, and a true team leader. At the end of the year, there were rumblings that Vince was so mad at management, he wanted to win NOW and that team was clearly not close to winning. But they were happy with him. i still have interviews, where he is acting VERY VERY immature and punkish (meloish). very surprising. TO fans dont hate Vince for the 1st 6 years at least they shouldnt.... It was that summer, and those last 20 games which is what people look at, and ONLY that, not the 6 years where you knew he wanted to win and gave it his all. Thost last 20 games were pretty bad, and I wont get into it. All ill say is that its not as clean cut as "vince tanked it"...I watched all 20 in their entirety, and even went to 1 of them live and watched vince the whole time cause i knew he was about to leave. when he came to jersey, in 05, in 06, and parts of 07, his demeanor and attitude were great and he kinda was the leader even though Jason was the real leader. in 1st half of 08, he was not the leader. he was reduced to a scrub. i think that has to do with the new offense, jason kidd wanting to leave, richard jefferson stepping up his role, vinces bad ankle, and just vince not playing well...i can admit that cause it was obvious. 2nd half of 08, he was stellear. old vince. pretty much 24ppg, 6rbs, 5assts, 2stls, 1blk, 45%, 50% from 3...everything you could want in a player. and he did it all on one ankle. he said all the right things in the locker room, he was optimistic and he redeemed himself in the eyes of the new york/jersey media and analysis. and his defense was great too. they commented that every game pretty much. so at this point in his career, 31, he is putting his entire game together, and with the leadership and defense coming a long way. it looks like for the rest of his career, he will have a very very good all around game. he has come a long way since the VC in TO. for good, in my eyes at least. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Look at the younger generation of leaders Chris Paul and Lebron. When they get on the court they are not just trying to beat their opponents. They are trying to destroy them and piss on their graves when they're finish. You look at Lebron in the playoffs and you have to be amazed at what this kid and I emphasize A FREAKING KID. Who already has it in his head I'm do what ever the hell I have to win and I will carry this team on shoulders. That is a leader. Someone who will not accept losing. Who hates it and the franchise knows how much he hates it that they will do whatever they can to make sure it doesn't become a habit. Carter has already admitted he does not have what you would call a killer instinct and on a team full of young players I don't think a player who is gracious loser is something you want to pass on as acceptable.</div> Cant argue there. he is not like CP3 or Lebron. They are different kinds of players. Better in a lot of ways. Vince has NEVER had that killer instinct. he has had it in spurts. in high school and college he never had it. he was taught differently and he just naturally is a really nice guy who is not like lebron or mj or kobe, scowling and killing you. there is no point saying that...cause hes not and never been. he does laugh at losing a lot and smile a lot during losing. i know TO fans really hate that and im sure nets fans hate it too. cant blame them...cant defend vince there. he does it. but i do know he also does show a lot of anger and disappointment and if you watch his pre and post game interviews like i did, you will see that. and lawrence frank talked about how in the locker room, where we DONT see him, he is true leader, leading this young guys and hes doing it great. so there is a vince we dont see...on the bus, on the plane, in the locker room. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As someone said right now VC needs to be in a situation where he like Utah where he is not expected to be the leader or to put an entire franchise on his back.</div> i agree. vince has gotten the individual glory. his best shot at winning a ring is on a team with a great supporting cast and other leaders, where he doesnt have to be THE guy. he tried that, he did a lot of good. but never past the 2nd round. he is a player who can win a 1st round series and half of a 2nd round series, that is who he is over his career. vince should be the paul pierce on a boston-like team. he is VERY VERY VERY unselfish and he proved that this year by WILLINGLY coming off the bench after he got injured. people forget that it seems, L frank talked about it at the time about how great it is to have vince accept that and "do whatever is best for the team". <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>but to answer your question all I have to do is look at now and the past and until something different happens I will gladly eat my words with a side of french fries and a chocolate shake.</div> i am glad you bring up a lot of good points but your not the typical message board guy going 'DUHHH VC SUCKS, HE IS A P*SSY AND SOFT AND A BABY etc". i agree with your points mostly. here is mine I hope you will get: vc is not kobe or lebron or cp3. but thats not a bad thing. vc is never going to be like them. but thats not a bad thing. vc has the talent of those players but an unselfish attitude about it...he TRUELY does care about the team more than himself. sometimes thats good, sometimes thats bad and ends up hurting the team. but that is who he is, and that is who hes always gonna be. he will show it in spurts, but in the end, it all comes down to a TEAM game. vince knows that. vince can only take a franchise so far. i think he should be on a team that can win now where he can seriously help them and not be like Jerry Stackhouse on dallas, but like paul and ray on boston. KG couldnt do it in minni, Ray couldnt do it in seattle, and paul certainly couldnt do it in boston. tmac couldnt do it in Orlando, baron couldnt do it in new orleans, kobe couldnt do it in LA (until they got gasol and fish and bynum!) so with that i say, vince couldnt do it in TO. 1 player cant win you a ring..the exception is lebron cause hes a monster. there is no shame in that, thats what im saying dude. the only argument i can see to all i said is: "then why is vince getting paid like a franchise player if he isnt" for that, i really dont have an answer. sorry. youve got me there. as you can tell, im an optimistic guy. i really dont like to dwell on the negatives as a player but rather focus on the game of basketball and the different personalities that surround it. its more fun to be optimistic than it is to always point out the negatives. maybe Rick Kalma (yeah sorry...quoting him, haha) said it best about vince being a hall of fame player: "dont focus on what he has not done. and dont focus on what his weaknesses are. just behold the highlights, the stats and the resume......vince is 31 years old, hes averaging 23.8 pts for his career. that is the 18th best scoring average in the history of the nba. and vince, at 31, has a nice career point total at 16,094 (more since he said it)..if vince remains at or above 20ppg until the age of 35, which is NOT farfetched at all, he will be at 23,000pts for his career. now 19 players in nba history have gone 23,000 or more. 18 of those 19 are either in the hall of fame, or locks to go to the hall of fame. (since then, dantley has gone in the hall of fame so thats 19/19)" maybe thats why hes a franchise $$$ guy. he can score with the best of em, and play a true team game. he definitely is a top 15...10 if hes healthy player in the nba. hes not cp3 of kobe or lebron, but there is no shame in being behind them. vince is vince. i hope you can look at him a little better after reading this . thanks for reading it everyone..those who did. *phew* </div> Wow! That was perfect,Max
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaxaMillion711 @ Apr 23 2008, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>by judging the past teams he was consider the leader on. His attitude and demeanor.</div> his first 6 full seasons in Toronto, he was the leader and he was doing just what Tmac is doing in Houston. Playing very well, but the supporting cast around him just couldnt do it. People like Loren Woods, Lonny Baxter, D-League players basically. People forget about year 6. It was just like this most recent year. Around 22ppg, and a true team leader. At the end of the year, there were rumblings that Vince was so mad at management, he wanted to win NOW and that team was clearly not close to winning. But they were happy with him. i still have interviews, where he is acting VERY VERY immature and punkish (meloish). very surprising. TO fans dont hate Vince for the 1st 6 years at least they shouldnt.... It was that summer, and those last 20 games which is what people look at, and ONLY that, not the 6 years where you knew he wanted to win and gave it his all. Thost last 20 games were pretty bad, and I wont get into it. All ill say is that its not as clean cut as "vince tanked it"...I watched all 20 in their entirety, and even went to 1 of them live and watched vince the whole time cause i knew he was about to leave. when he came to jersey, in 05, in 06, and parts of 07, his demeanor and attitude were great and he kinda was the leader even though Jason was the real leader. in 1st half of 08, he was not the leader. he was reduced to a scrub. i think that has to do with the new offense, jason kidd wanting to leave, richard jefferson stepping up his role, vinces bad ankle, and just vince not playing well...i can admit that cause it was obvious. 2nd half of 08, he was stellear. old vince. pretty much 24ppg, 6rbs, 5assts, 2stls, 1blk, 45%, 50% from 3...everything you could want in a player. and he did it all on one ankle. he said all the right things in the locker room, he was optimistic and he redeemed himself in the eyes of the new york/jersey media and analysis. and his defense was great too. they commented that every game pretty much. so at this point in his career, 31, he is putting his entire game together, and with the leadership and defense coming a long way. it looks like for the rest of his career, he will have a very very good all around game. he has come a long way since the VC in TO. for good, in my eyes at least. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Look at the younger generation of leaders Chris Paul and Lebron. When they get on the court they are not just trying to beat their opponents. They are trying to destroy them and piss on their graves when they're finish. You look at Lebron in the playoffs and you have to be amazed at what this kid and I emphasize A FREAKING KID. Who already has it in his head I'm do what ever the hell I have to win and I will carry this team on shoulders. That is a leader. Someone who will not accept losing. Who hates it and the franchise knows how much he hates it that they will do whatever they can to make sure it doesn't become a habit. Carter has already admitted he does not have what you would call a killer instinct and on a team full of young players I don't think a player who is gracious loser is something you want to pass on as acceptable.</div> Cant argue there. he is not like CP3 or Lebron. They are different kinds of players. Better in a lot of ways. Vince has NEVER had that killer instinct. he has had it in spurts. in high school and college he never had it. he was taught differently and he just naturally is a really nice guy who is not like lebron or mj or kobe, scowling and killing you. there is no point saying that...cause hes not and never been. he does laugh at losing a lot and smile a lot during losing. i know TO fans really hate that and im sure nets fans hate it too. cant blame them...cant defend vince there. he does it. but i do know he also does show a lot of anger and disappointment and if you watch his pre and post game interviews like i did, you will see that. and lawrence frank talked about how in the locker room, where we DONT see him, he is true leader, leading this young guys and hes doing it great. so there is a vince we dont see...on the bus, on the plane, in the locker room. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As someone said right now VC needs to be in a situation where he like Utah where he is not expected to be the leader or to put an entire franchise on his back.</div> i agree. vince has gotten the individual glory. his best shot at winning a ring is on a team with a great supporting cast and other leaders, where he doesnt have to be THE guy. he tried that, he did a lot of good. but never past the 2nd round. he is a player who can win a 1st round series and half of a 2nd round series, that is who he is over his career. vince should be the paul pierce on a boston-like team. he is VERY VERY VERY unselfish and he proved that this year by WILLINGLY coming off the bench after he got injured. people forget that it seems, L frank talked about it at the time about how great it is to have vince accept that and "do whatever is best for the team". <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>but to answer your question all I have to do is look at now and the past and until something different happens I will gladly eat my words with a side of french fries and a chocolate shake.</div> i am glad you bring up a lot of good points but your not the typical message board guy going 'DUHHH VC SUCKS, HE IS A P*SSY AND SOFT AND A BABY etc". i agree with your points mostly. here is mine I hope you will get: vc is not kobe or lebron or cp3. but thats not a bad thing. vc is never going to be like them. but thats not a bad thing. vc has the talent of those players but an unselfish attitude about it...he TRUELY does care about the team more than himself. sometimes thats good, sometimes thats bad and ends up hurting the team. but that is who he is, and that is who hes always gonna be. he will show it in spurts, but in the end, it all comes down to a TEAM game. vince knows that. vince can only take a franchise so far. i think he should be on a team that can win now where he can seriously help them and not be like Jerry Stackhouse on dallas, but like paul and ray on boston. KG couldnt do it in minni, Ray couldnt do it in seattle, and paul certainly couldnt do it in boston. tmac couldnt do it in Orlando, baron couldnt do it in new orleans, kobe couldnt do it in LA (until they got gasol and fish and bynum!) so with that i say, vince couldnt do it in TO. 1 player cant win you a ring..the exception is lebron cause hes a monster. there is no shame in that, thats what im saying dude. the only argument i can see to all i said is: "then why is vince getting paid like a franchise player if he isnt" for that, i really dont have an answer. sorry. youve got me there. as you can tell, im an optimistic guy. i really dont like to dwell on the negatives as a player but rather focus on the game of basketball and the different personalities that surround it. its more fun to be optimistic than it is to always point out the negatives. maybe Rick Kalma (yeah sorry...quoting him, haha) said it best about vince being a hall of fame player: "dont focus on what he has not done. and dont focus on what his weaknesses are. just behold the highlights, the stats and the resume......vince is 31 years old, hes averaging 23.8 pts for his career. that is the 18th best scoring average in the history of the nba. and vince, at 31, has a nice career point total at 16,094 (more since he said it)..if vince remains at or above 20ppg until the age of 35, which is NOT farfetched at all, he will be at 23,000pts for his career. now 19 players in nba history have gone 23,000 or more. 18 of those 19 are either in the hall of fame, or locks to go to the hall of fame. (since then, dantley has gone in the hall of fame so thats 19/19)" maybe thats why hes a franchise $$$ guy. he can score with the best of em, and play a true team game. he definitely is a top 15...10 if hes healthy player in the nba. hes not cp3 of kobe or lebron, but there is no shame in being behind them. vince is vince. i hope you can look at him a little better after reading this . thanks for reading it everyone..those who did. *phew* </div> his salary is 31st most largest in the nba, i dont believe that is franchise guy $$$ i do agree with what you have written tho... He has the franchise player skill set but does not have the mentality.
From Al Iannazzone.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Looks like Magic Johnson and Charles Barkley owe Carter a couple of apologies. Some of us in the media do as well because it’s always easy to take shots at Carter for not living up to his contract or potential or playing with passion all the time. But he showed everyone something at the tail end of the season with the role he chose to take after the Jason Kidd trade and refusing to sit out even after the Nets were eliminated from the postseason. I remember a couple of times when rookie Sean Williams was loud in the locker room postgame, Carter told him to quiet down. I had never seen Carter do that before because it was always Kidd’s team before February. “His leadership was the best it’s been since he’s been here,” team president Rod Thorn said. “He always took a backseat to Jason when it came to those kinds of things. I think he considered it Jason’s team, which it was, and took a back seat. But his leadership qualities really came to the fore. I can’t say enough about him I think he played absolutely great from the trade.”</div>
Great post Max. Definitely pointed out the great positives and negatives of Vince Carter. Couldn't have said it any better myself.
NJ was Kidd's team when Vince got here. So he adopted to that style and let Kidd handle the majority of the leadership. Now he is pretty much the undisputed captain on the team, and he's acting like it. What he needs now is another star player (Brand for ex) so he doesn't feel burdened with too much responsibility and weak supporting cast. If during the next year he realizes that this has become a perennial 9th seed team, he'll probably start slowly quitting on us ala Toronto. But with another star player who can share the leadership responsibilities, Vince can continue playing with fire.
Man when I think of Carter and Brand playing togather, smh that would be sick and then you got a great 2 way guard in Devin, it's just the perfect setting for an elite team
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>he'll probably start slowly quitting on us ala Toronto.</div> Vince has said numerous times he wants to stay and retire as a Net. He is forever grateful that they picked him up when trade value was so low and when he was injured. He used to be immature like I mentioned, but these past years have proven that he really has grown and what happened those last 20 games in Toronto will never happen agian. There were a lot of factors to his quitting on Toronto. Playing time. management knew vince wanted out. the fans knew it. the coach knew it. the players knew it. Vince did not get much playing time. He would start the games and get benched a lot. Case in point. SAS@TOR. vince is benched the ENTIRE 4TH QUARTER as the Raptors play their youth against a great spurs team. As the raptors are winning, Vince and Jalen rose are on the bench CHEERING THEM ON! He said that game "all i can do is play as hard as i can" Vince got the team off to 3 straight wins. vs a good Rockets team, the defending champs and an undefeated portland trail blazers team where he scored 25pts and hit the game winner. in ALL 3 GAMES he showed fire, passion and was getting praise from Swirsky and Jack. vs houston - vs detroit - vs portland - in seatlle on the western trip, carter battled with the team and he missed a potential game winner and raps lost 87-88 in portland, i was there live, and sat NEXT TO ROB BABCOCK (raptors GM at the time) wearing my VC jersey. He asked me why I came to see the raptors and I said "cause vince carter is my favorite player" and he didnt say anything, heh. I watched Vince. He hit a jumper, and was fired up in the 3rd quarter, but he was soon benched by mitchell to play the young guys. it was clear vince was not involved in the game plan. at the clippers, carter put on a 1st quarter show. he scored probably around 14 pts including 5 tough jumpers and a sweet baseline reverse dunk. this game is famous because mitchell tried to bench vince but vince said "leave me in there" and the very next play, he dunked it ... jack armstrong "ahhh keep him in there" then came the whole "i dont want to dunk anymore" comments. that was the immature vince. he was pissed at reporters saying "you have not dunked much this year". he was really pissed and playing with them. he doesnt do that now, but that is the immature vince that was in TO at the time. really mad even after wins cause the team and management were messed up. the game proceeding the comments, he dunked 3 times and made the highlight reels that night. one of his last best games a raptor was vs the knicks @ ACC. vince played spectular capped off by a windmill jam on the fastbreak that got him a STANDING OVATION BY THE CROWD the next home game, vs washington, vince poured in 34 points with a variety of shots and he lead the raptors into an overtime battle but larry hughes had a trip doub and washington won. but vince played great and was loved by the crowd. that was his last home game and he played great. good way to leave the home crowd. his last games were road games but a few stand out. @BOS, he hit some tough tough shots and the raps lost by 2 and vince was great. @NJN, he was battling food poisoning but he hit some amazing shots and kept the raptors in it. and his final game was at @DET, where he went down in the 3rd with an injury and walked off. fittingly, his last field goal as a raptor was the same shot he hit in february of 99 in his 1st game as a raptor...a turning fade away jumper. he was very soon after traded. now onto the john thomson video which raptor fans still hold up as the shining example of why vince sucks and is a teribble person. the interview was SEVERELY EDITED..that is why it HOLDS ON THOMSON and doesnt cut away until vince is in MID THOUGHT and gives his answer. vince had an interview with ahmad rashad...here is the transcript: vince: "mentally i was still there 100%" ahmad: "i want you to explain to me the comment about not playing 100%" vince: "that was blown out of .... it was taken out of context first and foremost. the beauty of EDITING...i never understood that. ive never not played 100%, i respect the game too much and i have too much fun on the court not to come play 100%. for the people that know me. they know i would never ever disrespect the game like that or myself of my family. " and when vince was talking about editing, they did NOT cut away like the TNT interview did. but nobody talks about that ahmad interview. so basically, the point im trying to make is that I watched all of his last games and i did not feel he tanked it. i feel it was time to go, he played less, the youth were the focus, and we dont know what happened behind closed doors with the GM and the coach and the players. but how do you expect TO fans to react to vince leaving? happy? no! of course they are pissed and they are going to justify hating him for it. i know im in the minority here guys. vince has a bad rap about those last 20 games. but i really want to defend him here and say that i think he did give a lot of effort but he was on his way out before the season even started.
I just have to say...thank god it's Vince, and not RJ. Vince was setting a great example for his teammates at the end of the season. Putting the team on his back, and putting forth so much energy and defense. It's unfortunate that the team didn't really respond in a similar way. And RJ? Well, he was being RJ.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaxaMillion711 @ Apr 23 2008, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>he'll probably start slowly quitting on us ala Toronto.</div> fittingly, his last field goal as a raptor was the same shot he hit in february of 99 in his 1st game as a raptor...a turning fade away jumper. </div> Damn man. As a fan, you're on a whole 'nother level. I'm a fan of Vince as well, but wowza.
