U.S. Attorney: Illegal Immigrants are not criminals

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Christie: Immigrants are not criminals
by Julie O'Connor/The Star-Ledger
Sunday April 27, 2008, 10:51 PM
Immigrants and their advocates today found an unlikely ally: the top law enforcement officer in New Jersey.


Noah Addis/The Star-Ledger
U.S. Attorney Christopher Christie speaks at First United Methodist Church of Dover today.U.S. Attorney Christopher Christie surprised many at a Dover church public forum when he said sneaking into the United States is not a criminal act.

"Being in this country without proper documentation is not a crime," Christie told more than 60 residents and town officials. "The whole phrase of 'illegal immigrant' connotes that the person, by just being here, is committing a crime."

Being undocumented may be a civil wrong, but it's not a criminal act, Christie said.

"Don't let people make you believe that that's a crime that the U.S. Attorney's Office should be doing something about," he added of entering the country illegally. "It is not."

After touching on the usual topics of his corruption-busting career and battles against gang violence, Christie fielded questions -- mostly on immigration issues -- from Morris County residents and community leaders in an open forum that at times grew heated.

The U.S. attorney had been invited by the local chapter of the Latino Leadership Alliance of New Jersey, a statewide group formed to empower Latinos to obtain political, economic and social equity, and hosted by the First United Methodist Church of Dover.

While Christie told the audience it doesn't take a "genius" to see there's a "serious immigration problem" in this country, he stressed an undocumented immigrant is not a criminal unless that person re-enters the country after being deported.

Rather, the state's top federal prosecutor called the problem of undocumented immigration "an administrative matter" that U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement is supposed to address.

"If there are people out there committing crimes, they should be dealt with," Christie said. "If there are undocumented people running around, then Immigration and Customs Enforcement should do their jobs."

Read more in Monday's Star-Ledger.</div>

Link

At first look I thought he was crazy, and I was a bit disappointed. After all he's done for the state to say that really shook me.

I can understand what he's saying though. He's saying people in the U.S. Attorney's office has no jurisdiction over illegal immigrants beause that's supposed to be enforced by Customs and Immigration.

Thing is these "undocumented workers" do get away with things that are criminal. Such as not paying taxes, driving around without a license, etc. etc. So I think this guy got it right...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Posted by RichGuy1 on 04/27/08 at 11:15PM
How about all these illegals not filing a State or Federal Income Tax Return, while I give up
40 cents on the dollar! How about the illegals costing the Hospitals so much in charity care they are now being forced to close.</div>

It's still illegal. And when you are doing something illegal you can be referred to as a "criminal." Not to mention how many illegals are sitting in our US prisons right now. (over 300,000)

"Being undocumented may be a civil wrong, but it's not a criminal act, Christie said. "

What's the penalty for being undocumented? "Sent home" is a civil penalty, not a criminal one.

Ever hear of an "illegal" immigrant being on trial for being an "illegal" immigrant? I'm not talking about someone who is accused of other things.

Funny that a US Attorney would ignore part of the United States Code:

8 USC • § 1325 (in pertinent part)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Improper entry by alien


(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at
any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3)
attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully
false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a
material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be
fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and,
for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title
18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties

Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter)
the United States at a time or place other than as designated by
immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of--
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in
lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.</div>

Perhaps not enough US Attorneys were fired?

Illegal Immigrants steal jobs from citizens, while also inflating the cost of homes and other goods. They help reinforce the cycle of rich getting richer, poor getting poorer.

Yes, stealing is criminal activity, yes they are in a way criminals.

-Petey

The US wastes a lot of money keeping illegal immigrants out of the country. It is quite a complex issue Petey, I don't think it ends just with your comment.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Gordon Hanson is causing quite a stir with his study for the Council on Foreign Relations entitled "The Economic Logic of Illegal Immigration". (Press release, WSJ op-ed, abstract, paper.) Economically speaking, he concludes, there's really very little reason to believe that legal immigration is preferable to illegal immigration ?€“ and illegal immigration has a small but positive net economic effect.

To the extent that the US spends a lot of money keeping illegal immigrants out of the country, that's likely to damage the economy as a whole. Much better to deal with security concerns in other ways, such as licensing global temp agencies who could fill US jobs with employees from anywhere.

Clearly, the present system of temporary work visas isn't, well, working ?€“ this year's quota of H-1Bs, for highly-skilled immigrants, "sold out" in a matter of hours. What's more, the number of visas is necessarily larger than the number of legal immigrants, since many legal immigrants end up with three or more temporary visas while working here. Much smarter, says Hanson, to let legal immigrants switch jobs much more easily, and also to give them a path to citizenship.</div>

http://www.felixsalmon.com/000821.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Apr 28 2008, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The US wastes a lot of money keeping illegal immigrants out of the country. It is quite a complex issue Petey, I don't think it ends just with your comment.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Gordon Hanson is causing quite a stir with his study for the Council on Foreign Relations entitled "The Economic Logic of Illegal Immigration". (Press release, WSJ op-ed, abstract, paper.) Economically speaking, he concludes, there's really very little reason to believe that legal immigration is preferable to illegal immigration �€“ and illegal immigration has a small but positive net economic effect.

To the extent that the US spends a lot of money keeping illegal immigrants out of the country, that's likely to damage the economy as a whole. Much better to deal with security concerns in other ways, such as licensing global temp agencies who could fill US jobs with employees from anywhere.

Clearly, the present system of temporary work visas isn't, well, working �€“ this year's quota of H-1Bs, for highly-skilled immigrants, "sold out" in a matter of hours. What's more, the number of visas is necessarily larger than the number of legal immigrants, since many legal immigrants end up with three or more temporary visas while working here. Much smarter, says Hanson, to let legal immigrants switch jobs much more easily, and also to give them a path to citizenship.</div>

http://www.felixsalmon.com/000821.html
</div>

Waste of tax payer dollars. Now if tax evasion is a crime, 'wasting' tax dollars should not carry a similar meaning (as how it's criminal)?

-Petey

Here is a small distinction I would like to make. Our country has historically given out a ton of welfare money. I'm using that term in its most broad sense, from tax breaks for corporations who meet certain criteria all the way down to people who refuse to work and take checks from the government. On a scale, the undocumented immigrants are not as much of a burden on the economy as a whole as are the people who just flat out take money from our government for flimsy reasons - on a regular basis. The hospital thing is true, but people aren't in the hospital *all the time* week in, week out. People who get checks for nothing or don't have to pay taxes that would otherwise help the local economy are seeing more of a consistant money suckage pound for pound. Migrant workers will work for close to nothing. Agriculture, as an industry, needs the migrant workers to survive in many parts of the southern US. Pushing all those workers up to minimum wage status means we could see drastic changes to the who industry, and ultimatlely they will just move their company to Mexico anyway. It's sort of a catch 22. It wouldn't be the first time that worker wages have driven entire industries out. Steel, cars, manufacturing....all jobs will eventually disappear, and all we will be left with are banking and restaurants lol. How do we fix everything? Raise the minimum wage across the whole planet. It would be really great if the leadership in developing countries wouldn't just sell out their people into virtual slavery so that they can get kickbacks from US companies. Construction workers in India make ~$2 per day to build new, state of the art buildings for US companies relocating there. Multinational corporations are making a killing off them, and have no obligation to give much back.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real @ Apr 28 2008, 09:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>At first look I thought he was crazy, and I was a bit disappointed. After all he's done for the state to say that really shook me.

I can understand what he's saying though. He's saying people in the U.S. Attorney's office has no jurisdiction over illegal immigrants beause that's supposed to be enforced by Customs and Immigration.

Thing is these "undocumented workers" do get away with things that are criminal. Such as not paying taxes, driving around without a license, etc. etc. So I think this guy got it right...</div>

Well, I know documented US citizens who don't work, are not wealthy, and are sucking money from the economy. Guess what, they don't have to pay taxes because they don't have a job!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Apr 28 2008, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Funny that a US Attorney would ignore part of the United States Code:

8 USC • § 1325 (in pertinent part)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Improper entry by alien


(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at
any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3)
attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully
false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a
material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be
fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and,
for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title
18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties

Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter)
the United States at a time or place other than as designated by
immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of--
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in
lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.</div>

Perhaps not enough US Attorneys were fired?
</div>


Main Entry:
pro·mul·gate Listen to the pronunciation of promulgate Listen to the pronunciation of promulgate
Pronunciation:
\ˈprä-məl-ˌgāt; prō-ˈməl-, prə-ˈ, ˈprō-(ˌ)\
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
pro·mul·gat·ed; pro·mul·gat·ing
Etymology:
Latin promulgatus, past participle of promulgare, from pro- forward + -mulgare (probably akin to mulgēre to milk, extract) — more at emulsion
Date:
1530

1: to make (as a doctrine) known by open declaration : proclaim2 a: to make known or public the terms of (a proposed law) b: to put (a law) into action or force

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Apr 28 2008, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The US wastes a lot of money keeping illegal immigrants out of the country. It is quite a complex issue Petey, I don't think it ends just with your comment.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Gordon Hanson is causing quite a stir with his study for the Council on Foreign Relations entitled "The Economic Logic of Illegal Immigration". (Press release, WSJ op-ed, abstract, paper.) Economically speaking, he concludes, there's really very little reason to believe that legal immigration is preferable to illegal immigration �?‚??€œ and illegal immigration has a small but positive net economic effect.

To the extent that the US spends a lot of money keeping illegal immigrants out of the country, that's likely to damage the economy as a whole. Much better to deal with security concerns in other ways, such as licensing global temp agencies who could fill US jobs with employees from anywhere.

Clearly, the present system of temporary work visas isn't, well, working �?‚??€œ this year's quota of H-1Bs, for highly-skilled immigrants, "sold out" in a matter of hours. What's more, the number of visas is necessarily larger than the number of legal immigrants, since many legal immigrants end up with three or more temporary visas while working here. Much smarter, says Hanson, to let legal immigrants switch jobs much more easily, and also to give them a path to citizenship.</div>

http://www.felixsalmon.com/000821.html
</div>

Waste of tax payer dollars. Now if tax evasion is a crime, 'wasting' tax dollars should not carry a similar meaning (as how it's criminal)?

-Petey
</div>

I don't really care what's criminal or not, I was merely pointing out how complex the issue can be. Not to mention that some illegal immigrants come from pretty messed up countries.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Apr 28 2008, 12:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't really care what's criminal or not, I was merely pointing out how complex the issue can be. Not to mention that some illegal immigrants come from pretty messed up countries.</div>

I gotcha. I think there are complex issues on both sides of the argument. My parents are immigrants. I've had friends who are illegal immigrants. I have nothing against them, as they don't really effect me or my situation.

While I'm sure everyone knows that some people run away from dangerous or very poor life situations, that hurts people whom are legal citizens. If you are starting up a business, and have the choice to pay someone half or less than that of someone else would would you take? You create a cheaper product. Then your competitors have to keep up. Creating a cycle. And in turn creating a poor life standard for citizens.

I recognize it's hard for the US to dictate the rates of pay outside the country, but working out a better salary structure (factoring illegal immigrants) in our own country would be a huge step in improving the life standards in this country.

-Petey

If workers were making even close to the same wages that they make regardless of what country it is, then we would not be talking about this at all. If I'm getting paid $2 per day in a developing country, do you think I give a rats ass what "burden" I am going to place on the US economy? They could issue citizenship a wee bit faster, perhaps we wouldn't be facing such a tidal wave of illegal immigration? I'm sure 99.9999999999% of the illegals who are coming across are not terrorists, and that's where I think the stalling comes from.

<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">We should hire a million more people to process visas. What do you think of that? Decrease the years of waiting that it takes to get citizenship for people who aren't out to screw us, they just want to <u>be</u> us and would be happy to pay our taxes as long as they can come over without any hassle.</span>

rotr - they already are us, and have been since before Texas and California were states

No no, lets not them all come at once, good lord we would lose our political clout if that happened, they're all heathens!

LOL

They're native Americans, by definition.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Apr 28 2008, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>LOL

They're native Americans, by definition.</div>

right. We've got people so high on their horse, that they are calling for a Berlin Wall on the borders. Why not do as I had suggested and process them as citizens faster? If its costing us so damn much to deal with them as illegals, then we could spend that money toward hiring people to get the <u>right ones</u> in, and keep the criminals out? My goodness, once we get 100,000 new legal workers on the payrolls, imagine how much we could tax the crap out of them to pay for their right to live here? WE WOULD ACTUALLY MAKE MONEY DOING THIS.

My view is that they don't have to be citizens.

The only point of building a wall is to keep people from crossing in places where they end up wandering in the desert and dying of dehydration. And to get them to cross where they can be counted.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Illegal Immigrants steal jobs from citizens, while also inflating the cost of homes and other goods. They help reinforce the cycle of rich getting richer, poor getting poorer.

Yes, stealing is criminal activity, yes they are in a way criminals.

-Petey</div>

Exactly what I think.


In a sense they're not criminal, to the extent that they haven't killed someone, or have done something to be criminals, but being that they're "illegally" in the country, automatically gives them that name.


I was an immigrant once (9 years ago), legal one , and thats the way to come to this country.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Apr 28 2008, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My view is that they don't have to be citizens.

The only point of building a wall is to keep people from crossing in places where they end up wandering in the desert and dying of dehydration. And to get them to cross where they can be counted.</div>

Okay, great, then they aren't full citizens if they don't want to. If they wanna just come work in the Summer, then at least they all have some kind of id, and we can tax them on income. Where is their income coming from when they come up here to work? Its coming from a legitimate US company of some kind, that has a tax id, and is tracked by the government. Farmers should not be an exception. Nor should house painters, and other construction workers. US companies have some blame here for the extent of this problem. It is in their best interest not to report them for tax purposes. Even if they pay them minimum US wage, they can still make money by avoiding the taxes. It's not traceable. Lets tax them all. Make it worth our while to allow them to do what they are going to do regardless. All of this requires more enforcement, and faster work visas.

Also, why not allow a huge influx of "citizens" if done this way? I get the feeling that the decision not to is mostly politically motivated. Imagine the demographic changes if we suddenly created a tidal wave of new citizens. The fair and balanced person would not have a problem with this.

I don't have a problem with anything you wrote, rotr.

The US has always been a nation of immigrants from various sources. The immigration laws have been instituted to discriminate against people, which is just wrong.

If we're a melting pot, then let the contents melt and so be it.

It's also a good idea to learn spanish as a 2nd language

I agree Denny, every one should speak at least a second language, no matter what it is. It elevates your brain and your thinking.


(i speak english, albanian, serbo-croatian, bosnian, and learning german) lol

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Apr 28 2008, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't have a problem with anything you wrote, rotr.

The US has always been a nation of immigrants from various sources. The immigration laws have been instituted to discriminate against people, which is just wrong.

If we're a melting pot, then let the contents melt and so be it.

It's also a good idea to learn spanish as a 2nd language </div>

... The original intention of the immigrant laws were not to discriminate, but they have been altered in ways they now do.

The original intent was to make social services manageable. I don't know how old most people who post in this thread are, but here are some quick figures.

Born or immigrated to the US by at least 18. Retire at 65. Which means you have contributed to 47 years of social services.

Now if you immigrant to the US when you are 45. Retire at 65, you have contributed to 20 years of social services.

Now there is a basement and cap on how much you can receive, but the immigrate who moved over much later is really going to reap the benefits of the system.

There are other factors like unemployment. Doesn't the 45 year old immigrant stand a better chance at losing a job, goign on to collect social services?

Now with immigrants, most are going to be low wage earner which lessens low house options.

Immigrants who in most cases are going to be among the lower wage earners put others out of jobs. It's not like there are unlimited chances for work in this country.

Immigrant laws were at one time very sound and put into effect for the greater good of US citizens.

-Petey

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Apr 28 2008, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't have a problem with anything you wrote, rotr.</div>

I know, Denny. I am talking toward the whole crowd, so that it gets a lot of viewing. I think sometimes people misunderstand some of the issues, and I was trying to highlight some thoughts that I have had about this for a while. I find it best to look at all the angles as I think that this immigration issue is a symptom of larger problems that exist in our society/government/the world in general.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If workers were making even close to the same wages that they make regardless of what country it is, then we would not be talking about this at all. If I'm getting paid $2 per day in a developing country, do you think I give a rats ass what "burden" I am going to place on the US economy? They could issue citizenship a wee bit faster, perhaps we wouldn't be facing such a tidal wave of illegal immigration? I'm sure 99.9999999999% of the illegals who are coming across are not terrorists, and that's where I think the stalling comes from.

<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">We should hire a million more people to process visas. What do you think of that? Decrease the years of waiting that it takes to get citizenship for people who aren't out to screw us, they just want to <u>be</u> us and would be happy to pay our taxes as long as they can come over without any hassle.</span></div>

If the US had an open door policy, you would spend a portion of your life unemployed and most half of those under 18 if not more would never be home owners in the future. There are reasons for limiting who comes into the country. My parents are legal immigrants, I was born here, so that's easy for me to say. I've seen both sides of the fence. Both sides have their ugly sides, but what you are suggesting is bordering the impossible. For arguments sake, you get everyone to raise wages... you put lots of business out to the curb, creating a glut on social services, people turning to less legal work, or people who lower their wage expectations just to bring something home.

-Petey

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now with immigrants, most are going to be low wage earner which lessens low house options.

Immigrants who in most cases are going to be among the lower wage earners put others out of jobs. It's not like there are unlimited chances for work in this country.

-Petey</div>

Not anymore. Have you seen what our relation has been like with India and other Asian countries lately? All jobs are being taken from US nationals. Foreign workers will go to college in their own countries, earn comparable degrees that our colleges teach, and they will either move in and take our job, or they move the whole job to India and pay them India wages. Name an industry in this country besides some of the obvious, like banking, that have no risk of being moved offshore? Same thing with migrant farm workers from the south. They either come here to take the low wage job, or they take that whole company south of the border and set up there. My point is that all opportunities are drying up. If you have worked a particular skilled job for your whole life, it may be moved to another country. At that point, do you "switch countries" and continue doing what you have been trained to do? Probably not. You are probably too old at that point to really have the patience to learn a foreign language. So you get layed off, after your company gets offshored. You are then standing in the welfare line, asking for the government to support you while you "look for a new job" of which you won't find. Terrible situation, and I feel for the younger people coming up.

I don't want to come off as a communist or something, but is the WTO really doing anyone a favor except for the top corporate executives? While they argue for free trade, couldn't they also argue on behalf of the millions of people that are turning the wheels that make their profits soar? They are clearly taking advantage of us all. The problem is, who goes to these summits to negotiate on behalf of the people that are doing the actual work? Just those grimey looking hippies that you see getting hit with rubber bullets and gas. It's a bit lopsided.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If workers were making even close to the same wages that they make regardless of what country it is, then we would not be talking about this at all. If I'm getting paid $2 per day in a developing country, do you think I give a rats ass what "burden" I am going to place on the US economy? They could issue citizenship a wee bit faster, perhaps we wouldn't be facing such a tidal wave of illegal immigration? I'm sure 99.9999999999% of the illegals who are coming across are not terrorists, and that's where I think the stalling comes from.

<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">We should hire a million more people to process visas. What do you think of that? Decrease the years of waiting that it takes to get citizenship for people who aren't out to screw us, they just want to <u>be</u> us and would be happy to pay our taxes as long as they can come over without any hassle.</span></div>

If the US had an open door policy, you would spend a portion of your life unemployed and most half of those under 18 if not more would never be home owners in the future. There are reasons for limiting who comes into the country. My parents are legal immigrants, I was born here, so that's easy for me to say. I've seen both sides of the fence. Both sides have their ugly sides, but what you are suggesting is bordering the impossible. For arguments sake, you get everyone to raise wages... you put lots of business out to the curb, creating a glut on social services, people turning to less legal work, or people who lower their wage expectations just to bring something home.

-Petey
</div>

I disagree.

I'm also not advocating that they just "open the door and let everyone in". I'm asking that they process visas at close to the same rate as we have legions of people storming the borders on foot. I know this one guy who it took years to get legal. How many illegals do you think crossed the borders 8 times *each* while that guy is still waiting for his own to go through. Technically, we are already a revolving door (illegally). That is what we have *now*. If illegal workers are getting all the things I get at the same job, then I would bet my entire 401k that once they start making a US wage, they wouldn't be migrating anymore! They would just move in, what the hell is the point of migrating if you can afford to rent here? Once they settle in, then they become US consumers, and consumers are who buy the stuff that we use everyday to live. Yadda yadda yadda.... the cycle of life, and everyone in the food chain gets paid, and all the cash stays right here in our economy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now with immigrants, most are going to be low wage earner which lessens low house options.

Immigrants who in most cases are going to be among the lower wage earners put others out of jobs. It's not like there are unlimited chances for work in this country.

-Petey</div>

Not anymore. Have you seen what our relation has been like with India and other Asian countries lately? All jobs are being taken from US nationals. Foreign workers will go to college in their own countries, earn comparable degrees that our colleges teach, and they will either move in and take our job, or they move the whole job to India and pay them India wages. Name an industry in this country besides some of the obvious, like banking, that have no risk of being moved offshore? Same thing with migrant farm workers from the south. They either come here to take the low wage job, or they take that whole company south of the border and set up there. My point is that all opportunities are drying up. If you have worked a particular skilled job for your whole life, it may be moved to another country. At that point, do you "switch countries" and continue doing what you have been trained to do? Probably not. You are probably too old at that point to really have the patience to learn a foreign language. So you get layed off, after your company gets offshored. You are then standing in the welfare line, asking for the government to support you while you "look for a new job" of which you won't find. Terrible situation, and I feel for the younger people coming up.

I don't want to come off as a communist or something, but is the WTO really doing anyone a favor except for the top corporate executives? While they argue for free trade, couldn't they also argue on behalf of the millions of people that are turning the wheels that make their profits soar? They are clearly taking advantage of us all. The problem is, who goes to these summits to negotiate on behalf of the people that are doing the actual work? Just those grimey looking hippies that you see getting hit with rubber bullets and gas. It's a bit lopsided.
</div>

Circular process. Do these companies turn to cheaper labor and material to provide for the growing lower class? Do these companies turn to cheaper labor and material due to companies not based in the US having cheaper labor and material costs? I think a bit of each.

Are these foreign companies with lower priced products in the country because of greedy US citizens who want to pay as little as possible? Like Ikea? I think that has a bit to do with it too.

No I don't work for a big company. But I am not going to throw the blame at such a small percentage. At least not yet.

-Petey

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If workers were making even close to the same wages that they make regardless of what country it is, then we would not be talking about this at all. If I'm getting paid $2 per day in a developing country, do you think I give a rats ass what "burden" I am going to place on the US economy? They could issue citizenship a wee bit faster, perhaps we wouldn't be facing such a tidal wave of illegal immigration? I'm sure 99.9999999999% of the illegals who are coming across are not terrorists, and that's where I think the stalling comes from.

<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">We should hire a million more people to process visas. What do you think of that? Decrease the years of waiting that it takes to get citizenship for people who aren't out to screw us, they just want to <u>be</u> us and would be happy to pay our taxes as long as they can come over without any hassle.</span></div>

If the US had an open door policy, you would spend a portion of your life unemployed and most half of those under 18 if not more would never be home owners in the future. There are reasons for limiting who comes into the country. My parents are legal immigrants, I was born here, so that's easy for me to say. I've seen both sides of the fence. Both sides have their ugly sides, but what you are suggesting is bordering the impossible. For arguments sake, you get everyone to raise wages... you put lots of business out to the curb, creating a glut on social services, people turning to less legal work, or people who lower their wage expectations just to bring something home.

-Petey
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I disagree.

I'm also not advocating that they just "open the door and let everyone in". I'm asking that they process visas at close to the same rate as we have legions of people storming the borders on foot. I know this one guy who it took years to get legal. How many illegals do you think crossed the borders 8 times *each* while that guy is still waiting for his own to go through. Technically, we are already a revolving door (illegally). That is what we have *now*. If illegal workers are getting all the things I get at the same job, then I would bet my entire 401k that once they start making a US wage, they wouldn't be migrating anymore! They would just move in, what the hell is the point of migrating if you can afford to rent here? Once they settle in, then they become US consumers, and consumers are who buy the stuff that we use everyday to live. Yadda yadda yadda.... the cycle of life, and everyone in the food chain gets paid, and all the cash stays right here in our economy.
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Illegals in the US don't get paid US wages. Or a majority don't. Most come, live in small quarters, shared with others, returning home to live off their wages collected in the US over their 4/5/6 years here. You own a farm. Or a car wash. Or a delivery service. This guy is illegal, you know it, you pay him as you should? Now if you clamp down on regulations, like 5 year prison sentence for illegals caught in the US... you curb the number of people that make their way open... and US wages will be paid.

-Petey