<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Apr 28 2008, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My view is that they don't have to be citizens. The only point of building a wall is to keep people from crossing in places where they end up wandering in the desert and dying of dehydration. And to get them to cross where they can be counted.</div> Okay, great, then they aren't full citizens if they don't want to. If they wanna just come work in the Summer, then at least they all have some kind of id, and we can tax them on income. Where is their income coming from when they come up here to work? Its coming from a legitimate US company of some kind, that has a tax id, and is tracked by the government. Farmers should not be an exception. Nor should house painters, and other construction workers. US companies have some blame here for the extent of this problem. It is in their best interest not to report them for tax purposes. Even if they pay them minimum US wage, they can still make money by avoiding the taxes. It's not traceable. Lets tax them all. Make it worth our while to allow them to do what they are going to do regardless. All of this requires more enforcement, and faster work visas. Also, why not allow a huge influx of "citizens" if done this way? I get the feeling that the decision not to is mostly politically motivated. Imagine the demographic changes if we suddenly created a tidal wave of new citizens. The fair and balanced person would not have a problem with this.
I don't have a problem with anything you wrote, rotr. The US has always been a nation of immigrants from various sources. The immigration laws have been instituted to discriminate against people, which is just wrong. If we're a melting pot, then let the contents melt and so be it. It's also a good idea to learn spanish as a 2nd language
I agree Denny, every one should speak at least a second language, no matter what it is. It elevates your brain and your thinking. (i speak english, albanian, serbo-croatian, bosnian, and learning german) lol
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Apr 28 2008, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't have a problem with anything you wrote, rotr. The US has always been a nation of immigrants from various sources. The immigration laws have been instituted to discriminate against people, which is just wrong. If we're a melting pot, then let the contents melt and so be it. It's also a good idea to learn spanish as a 2nd language </div> ... The original intention of the immigrant laws were not to discriminate, but they have been altered in ways they now do. The original intent was to make social services manageable. I don't know how old most people who post in this thread are, but here are some quick figures. Born or immigrated to the US by at least 18. Retire at 65. Which means you have contributed to 47 years of social services. Now if you immigrant to the US when you are 45. Retire at 65, you have contributed to 20 years of social services. Now there is a basement and cap on how much you can receive, but the immigrate who moved over much later is really going to reap the benefits of the system. There are other factors like unemployment. Doesn't the 45 year old immigrant stand a better chance at losing a job, goign on to collect social services? Now with immigrants, most are going to be low wage earner which lessens low house options. Immigrants who in most cases are going to be among the lower wage earners put others out of jobs. It's not like there are unlimited chances for work in this country. Immigrant laws were at one time very sound and put into effect for the greater good of US citizens. -Petey
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Apr 28 2008, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't have a problem with anything you wrote, rotr.</div> I know, Denny. I am talking toward the whole crowd, so that it gets a lot of viewing. I think sometimes people misunderstand some of the issues, and I was trying to highlight some thoughts that I have had about this for a while. I find it best to look at all the angles as I think that this immigration issue is a symptom of larger problems that exist in our society/government/the world in general.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If workers were making even close to the same wages that they make regardless of what country it is, then we would not be talking about this at all. If I'm getting paid $2 per day in a developing country, do you think I give a rats ass what "burden" I am going to place on the US economy? They could issue citizenship a wee bit faster, perhaps we wouldn't be facing such a tidal wave of illegal immigration? I'm sure 99.9999999999% of the illegals who are coming across are not terrorists, and that's where I think the stalling comes from. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">We should hire a million more people to process visas. What do you think of that? Decrease the years of waiting that it takes to get citizenship for people who aren't out to screw us, they just want to <u>be</u> us and would be happy to pay our taxes as long as they can come over without any hassle.</span></div> If the US had an open door policy, you would spend a portion of your life unemployed and most half of those under 18 if not more would never be home owners in the future. There are reasons for limiting who comes into the country. My parents are legal immigrants, I was born here, so that's easy for me to say. I've seen both sides of the fence. Both sides have their ugly sides, but what you are suggesting is bordering the impossible. For arguments sake, you get everyone to raise wages... you put lots of business out to the curb, creating a glut on social services, people turning to less legal work, or people who lower their wage expectations just to bring something home. -Petey
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now with immigrants, most are going to be low wage earner which lessens low house options. Immigrants who in most cases are going to be among the lower wage earners put others out of jobs. It's not like there are unlimited chances for work in this country. -Petey</div> Not anymore. Have you seen what our relation has been like with India and other Asian countries lately? All jobs are being taken from US nationals. Foreign workers will go to college in their own countries, earn comparable degrees that our colleges teach, and they will either move in and take our job, or they move the whole job to India and pay them India wages. Name an industry in this country besides some of the obvious, like banking, that have no risk of being moved offshore? Same thing with migrant farm workers from the south. They either come here to take the low wage job, or they take that whole company south of the border and set up there. My point is that all opportunities are drying up. If you have worked a particular skilled job for your whole life, it may be moved to another country. At that point, do you "switch countries" and continue doing what you have been trained to do? Probably not. You are probably too old at that point to really have the patience to learn a foreign language. So you get layed off, after your company gets offshored. You are then standing in the welfare line, asking for the government to support you while you "look for a new job" of which you won't find. Terrible situation, and I feel for the younger people coming up. I don't want to come off as a communist or something, but is the WTO really doing anyone a favor except for the top corporate executives? While they argue for free trade, couldn't they also argue on behalf of the millions of people that are turning the wheels that make their profits soar? They are clearly taking advantage of us all. The problem is, who goes to these summits to negotiate on behalf of the people that are doing the actual work? Just those grimey looking hippies that you see getting hit with rubber bullets and gas. It's a bit lopsided.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If workers were making even close to the same wages that they make regardless of what country it is, then we would not be talking about this at all. If I'm getting paid $2 per day in a developing country, do you think I give a rats ass what "burden" I am going to place on the US economy? They could issue citizenship a wee bit faster, perhaps we wouldn't be facing such a tidal wave of illegal immigration? I'm sure 99.9999999999% of the illegals who are coming across are not terrorists, and that's where I think the stalling comes from. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">We should hire a million more people to process visas. What do you think of that? Decrease the years of waiting that it takes to get citizenship for people who aren't out to screw us, they just want to <u>be</u> us and would be happy to pay our taxes as long as they can come over without any hassle.</span></div> If the US had an open door policy, you would spend a portion of your life unemployed and most half of those under 18 if not more would never be home owners in the future. There are reasons for limiting who comes into the country. My parents are legal immigrants, I was born here, so that's easy for me to say. I've seen both sides of the fence. Both sides have their ugly sides, but what you are suggesting is bordering the impossible. For arguments sake, you get everyone to raise wages... you put lots of business out to the curb, creating a glut on social services, people turning to less legal work, or people who lower their wage expectations just to bring something home. -Petey </div> I disagree. I'm also not advocating that they just "open the door and let everyone in". I'm asking that they process visas at close to the same rate as we have legions of people storming the borders on foot. I know this one guy who it took years to get legal. How many illegals do you think crossed the borders 8 times *each* while that guy is still waiting for his own to go through. Technically, we are already a revolving door (illegally). That is what we have *now*. If illegal workers are getting all the things I get at the same job, then I would bet my entire 401k that once they start making a US wage, they wouldn't be migrating anymore! They would just move in, what the hell is the point of migrating if you can afford to rent here? Once they settle in, then they become US consumers, and consumers are who buy the stuff that we use everyday to live. Yadda yadda yadda.... the cycle of life, and everyone in the food chain gets paid, and all the cash stays right here in our economy.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now with immigrants, most are going to be low wage earner which lessens low house options. Immigrants who in most cases are going to be among the lower wage earners put others out of jobs. It's not like there are unlimited chances for work in this country. -Petey</div> Not anymore. Have you seen what our relation has been like with India and other Asian countries lately? All jobs are being taken from US nationals. Foreign workers will go to college in their own countries, earn comparable degrees that our colleges teach, and they will either move in and take our job, or they move the whole job to India and pay them India wages. Name an industry in this country besides some of the obvious, like banking, that have no risk of being moved offshore? Same thing with migrant farm workers from the south. They either come here to take the low wage job, or they take that whole company south of the border and set up there. My point is that all opportunities are drying up. If you have worked a particular skilled job for your whole life, it may be moved to another country. At that point, do you "switch countries" and continue doing what you have been trained to do? Probably not. You are probably too old at that point to really have the patience to learn a foreign language. So you get layed off, after your company gets offshored. You are then standing in the welfare line, asking for the government to support you while you "look for a new job" of which you won't find. Terrible situation, and I feel for the younger people coming up. I don't want to come off as a communist or something, but is the WTO really doing anyone a favor except for the top corporate executives? While they argue for free trade, couldn't they also argue on behalf of the millions of people that are turning the wheels that make their profits soar? They are clearly taking advantage of us all. The problem is, who goes to these summits to negotiate on behalf of the people that are doing the actual work? Just those grimey looking hippies that you see getting hit with rubber bullets and gas. It's a bit lopsided. </div> Circular process. Do these companies turn to cheaper labor and material to provide for the growing lower class? Do these companies turn to cheaper labor and material due to companies not based in the US having cheaper labor and material costs? I think a bit of each. Are these foreign companies with lower priced products in the country because of greedy US citizens who want to pay as little as possible? Like Ikea? I think that has a bit to do with it too. No I don't work for a big company. But I am not going to throw the blame at such a small percentage. At least not yet. -Petey
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If workers were making even close to the same wages that they make regardless of what country it is, then we would not be talking about this at all. If I'm getting paid $2 per day in a developing country, do you think I give a rats ass what "burden" I am going to place on the US economy? They could issue citizenship a wee bit faster, perhaps we wouldn't be facing such a tidal wave of illegal immigration? I'm sure 99.9999999999% of the illegals who are coming across are not terrorists, and that's where I think the stalling comes from. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">We should hire a million more people to process visas. What do you think of that? Decrease the years of waiting that it takes to get citizenship for people who aren't out to screw us, they just want to <u>be</u> us and would be happy to pay our taxes as long as they can come over without any hassle.</span></div> If the US had an open door policy, you would spend a portion of your life unemployed and most half of those under 18 if not more would never be home owners in the future. There are reasons for limiting who comes into the country. My parents are legal immigrants, I was born here, so that's easy for me to say. I've seen both sides of the fence. Both sides have their ugly sides, but what you are suggesting is bordering the impossible. For arguments sake, you get everyone to raise wages... you put lots of business out to the curb, creating a glut on social services, people turning to less legal work, or people who lower their wage expectations just to bring something home. -Petey </div> I disagree. I'm also not advocating that they just "open the door and let everyone in". I'm asking that they process visas at close to the same rate as we have legions of people storming the borders on foot. I know this one guy who it took years to get legal. How many illegals do you think crossed the borders 8 times *each* while that guy is still waiting for his own to go through. Technically, we are already a revolving door (illegally). That is what we have *now*. If illegal workers are getting all the things I get at the same job, then I would bet my entire 401k that once they start making a US wage, they wouldn't be migrating anymore! They would just move in, what the hell is the point of migrating if you can afford to rent here? Once they settle in, then they become US consumers, and consumers are who buy the stuff that we use everyday to live. Yadda yadda yadda.... the cycle of life, and everyone in the food chain gets paid, and all the cash stays right here in our economy. </div> Illegals in the US don't get paid US wages. Or a majority don't. Most come, live in small quarters, shared with others, returning home to live off their wages collected in the US over their 4/5/6 years here. You own a farm. Or a car wash. Or a delivery service. This guy is illegal, you know it, you pay him as you should? Now if you clamp down on regulations, like 5 year prison sentence for illegals caught in the US... you curb the number of people that make their way open... and US wages will be paid. -Petey
The first immigration law was the anti-asian immigration act. May as well make an anti-Petey immigration act at the same time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If workers were making even close to the same wages that they make regardless of what country it is, then we would not be talking about this at all. If I'm getting paid $2 per day in a developing country, do you think I give a rats ass what "burden" I am going to place on the US economy? They could issue citizenship a wee bit faster, perhaps we wouldn't be facing such a tidal wave of illegal immigration? I'm sure 99.9999999999% of the illegals who are coming across are not terrorists, and that's where I think the stalling comes from. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">We should hire a million more people to process visas. What do you think of that? Decrease the years of waiting that it takes to get citizenship for people who aren't out to screw us, they just want to <u>be</u> us and would be happy to pay our taxes as long as they can come over without any hassle.</span></div> If the US had an open door policy, you would spend a portion of your life unemployed and most half of those under 18 if not more would never be home owners in the future. There are reasons for limiting who comes into the country. My parents are legal immigrants, I was born here, so that's easy for me to say. I've seen both sides of the fence. Both sides have their ugly sides, but what you are suggesting is bordering the impossible. For arguments sake, you get everyone to raise wages... you put lots of business out to the curb, creating a glut on social services, people turning to less legal work, or people who lower their wage expectations just to bring something home. -Petey </div> I disagree. I'm also not advocating that they just "open the door and let everyone in". I'm asking that they process visas at close to the same rate as we have legions of people storming the borders on foot. I know this one guy who it took years to get legal. How many illegals do you think crossed the borders 8 times *each* while that guy is still waiting for his own to go through. Technically, we are already a revolving door (illegally). That is what we have *now*. If illegal workers are getting all the things I get at the same job, then I would bet my entire 401k that once they start making a US wage, they wouldn't be migrating anymore! They would just move in, what the hell is the point of migrating if you can afford to rent here? Once they settle in, then they become US consumers, and consumers are who buy the stuff that we use everyday to live. Yadda yadda yadda.... the cycle of life, and everyone in the food chain gets paid, and all the cash stays right here in our economy. </div> Illegals in the US don't get paid US wages. Or a majority don't. Most come, live in small quarters, shared with others, returning home to live off their wages collected in the US over their 4/5/6 years here. You own a farm. Or a car wash. Or a delivery service. This guy is illegal, you know it, you pay him as you should? </div> Yes, that's the way things are now. What I was suggesting above is something for the future. Yes, there are ordinary, every day people taking advantage of thier cheap labor because that is our current state of affairs. I know people who mow lawns for a living. They are a legitimate business and have their number in the yellow pages. I also know a kid down the street who will do the same job for me, tax free. I just throw him some cash. Neither of these situations is creating a huge problem for our economy. Neither is really anything to worry about. The kid is probably legally too young to work, but I'm not expecting him to have any leverage against me either. I used to work jobs like that when I was really young. Ideally, thats what we want in our society, for the youngest people to pay their dues in the simplest jobs until they get older, wiser, and more skilled. Then they are worth more. The illegal migrant workers can be very old people, doing things that they should have already been grown out of years ago had they worked their way up our system. I'm not sure I have answered your question in the way you had intended. I want for those people to be on payrolls, earning higher wages, and paying more into taxes just as you or I have. We don't want the 50-year old man in the field pulling vegetables by hand, that makes no sense. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Now if you clamp down on regulations, like 5 year prison sentence for illegals caught in the US... you curb the number of people that make their way open... and US wages will be paid. -Petey</div> Sure, we could just kill everyone that breaks the law too, that would be even more effective. No, lets try something more constructive. Also, are you aware of how much it costs taxpayers to incarcerate people on a per yearly basis? We are already spending $1 billion annually to lock up people caught with marijuana in their possession. Not a very effective use of our tax money, and it makes no difference in the long run.
The entire US prison population is about 2.5M. Petey, you want to build 10x the prisons just to house these people? If you think they're getting a lot of free stuff off the taxpayers' dole now, it's going to cost a heckofalot more.
Despite the conversation here, the crucial thing to remember is that a US Attorney, called in the article a 'top federal prosecutor' either lied about the criminality of an action or was unaware - in either case completely unacceptable for a prosecutor, much less a supposed 'expert.' The fact that some idiot talks out of his ass doesn't actually change the law - but it probably deluded a number of people in that church, and more who read the article. He should be removed from his position and censured.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, that's the way things are now. What I was suggesting above is something for the future. Yes, there are ordinary, every day people taking advantage of thier cheap labor because that is our current state of affairs. I know people who mow lawns for a living. They are a legitimate business and have their number in the yellow pages. I also know a kid down the street who will do the same job for me, tax free. I just throw him some cash. Neither of these situations is creating a huge problem for our economy. Neither is really anything to worry about. The kid is probably legally too young to work, but I'm not expecting him to have any leverage against me either. I used to work jobs like that when I was really young. Ideally, thats what we want in our society, for the youngest people to pay their dues in the simplest jobs until they get older, wiser, and more skilled. Then they are worth more. The illegal migrant workers can be very old people, doing things that they should have already been grown out of years ago had they worked their way up our system. I'm not sure I have answered your question in the way you had intended. I want for those people to be on payrolls, earning higher wages, and paying more into taxes just as you or I have. We don't want the 50-year old man in the field pulling vegetables by hand, that makes no sense.</div> I understand what you are saying. But this goes back to what I said. This 50-year old man in your example is still taking the job of someone who should be paying taxes as is. So he is displacing someone else. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Apr 28 2008, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Sure, we could just kill everyone that breaks the law too, that would be even more effective. No, lets try something more constructive. Also, are you aware of how much it costs taxpayers to incarcerate people on a per yearly basis? We are already spending $1 billion annually to lock up people caught with marijuana in their possession. Not a very effective use of our tax money, and it makes no difference in the long run.</div> Our jail system has a revolving door. Yes it's expensive to keep someone locked up. But by making sentences longer, it gives others something to consider. If you smoke weed... and you were to get put away for 10 years if caught with it in it's possession, how many kids in middle school do you think would seriously consider taking their first hit? I don't have any stats, but I would bet that a pretty big percentage of people who have been jailed are repeat offenders. Why are they repeat offenders? Cause prison is not so bad? Or it's not worth countering the profits of their crimes? So balance the scales. -Petey
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Apr 28 2008, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>They really ought to prosecute jaywalkers, too.</div> Didn't Giuliani try that in NYC? I actually am not in favor of prosecuting illegal aliens, it's an ill-thought law. But for a federal prosecutor to lie and say that it's not a criminal act when it is...
He has the authority to promulgate the law as he sees fit. The law you cited includes civil penalties provisions. The same reason they don't prosecute jaywalking - it isn't promulgated. However, should there be a rash of jaywalkers hit by a car in some city or town, they might go after jaywalking.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Apr 28 2008, 11:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He has the authority to promulgate the law as he sees fit. The law you cited includes civil penalties provisions. The same reason they don't prosecute jaywalking - it isn't promulgated. However, should there be a rash of jaywalkers hit by a car in some city or town, they might go after jaywalking.</div> Except it's not about promulgation - it's about the fact that he wasn't truthful in his speech. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>"Being in this country without proper documentation is not a crime," Christie told more than 60 residents and town officials. "The whole phrase of 'illegal immigrant' connotes that the person, by just being here, is committing a crime."</div> Even if it's not prosecuted, a crime remains a crime so long as its governing statute remains in force. There simply is no way to reconcile his statement with the statute and reach an acceptable answer. By law, it is a crime. And that, incidentally, is something that he does not possess the power to change. Put another way, while he has discretion to enforce the law as he sees fit, he has not lawful right to determine whether something is legal or not, and to even entertain that theory is to deny the separation of powers doctrine, for starters.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Apr 28 2008, 01:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Apr 28 2008, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Illegal Immigrants steal jobs from citizens, while also inflating the cost of homes and other goods. They help reinforce the cycle of rich getting richer, poor getting poorer. Yes, stealing is criminal activity, yes they are in a way criminals. -Petey</div> Exactly what I think. In a sense they're not criminal, to the extent that they haven't killed someone, or have done something to be criminals, but being that they're "illegally" in the country, automatically gives them that name. I was an immigrant once (9 years ago), legal one , and thats the way to come to this country. </div> They aren't stealing, they are lowballing their competition. If their employers were forced to pay immigrants minimum wage or industry standard, then this whole conversation goes away. Part of the blame for this whole mess are the employers who select tax free cheap illegal labor over the alternative. If we have an influx of new citizens, then all that means to the employer is that he will get to read twice as many resumes for the same job. They still have to have enough skill to do your job, pay taxes, live here, and any other dues that other legal residents pay. With more population comes more workers of all skill levels and age. Eventually, as many legal mexicans already living in the US have found, is that they become seemlessly integrated into our economy. What we as a country need to recognise is that <u>they are already part of our economy whether we like it or not</u>. We can choose to get them fully integrated into our system. At that point, all the arguements about them stealing tax money, social services goes away, because they are paying just as much back into the system as anyone else already here. Rather than punishing them into oblivion, why not make them part of the whole structure? Make them *accountable*! Get taxes from them. If they make enough, they can afford to live here, and they're never running crazy through the desert ever again. You need to include the white collar jobs that are being farmed offshore as well if we are going to make this a complete discussion. All jobs are disappearing from our country at every level of skill or eduacational background, because employers don't give a damn where you are from, they are going to make as much money with or without the American worker. I find it amazing that we blame immigrants for what is clearly a systemic problem. They are just reaping the rewards of our boss's greed.
