Today was a day of reflection. It reminded us all of the danger of cheating in sports. It reminded us of how reputations are always on the line when foul play is involved. Keep in mind, Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds have never been caught failing a urine test for steroids, but the public opinion has already crushed them. Their statements and circumstances alone have torched them beyond repair in the eye of the public. Still no proof on them... Spygate wasn't just the small time, petty theft. This was an ongoing, illicit enterprise. The perpetrators were aware of other teams who might be taking television broadcasts, lip readers, or whatever excuse they used for their institutional cheating. They upped the stakes. They took it to a whole other level. The Enron level. In review: Chapter 1 The Jets head coach, Eric Mangini, decided to blow a whistle on the Patriots after seeing Matt Estrella brazenly walking the sidelines of Giants Stadium, and taping the defensive signals of of the opposing team. The NFL looks at the tape, they find a competitive violation, which there has been a rule in place since before Bill B started coaching the Pats. Chapter 2 Roger Goodell is interested in seeing what Bill B has been up to. He asks him to provide all video tape footage of similar incidents. Bill B provides Roger Goodell with 6 tapes, dating between 2006 and 2007. Goodell reviews the tapes. Belicheat is fined, Patriots are fined, and they lose their first round draft pick. Chapter 3 Today. Goodell and Walsh meet, and talk about the tapes that Walsh provided. Roger says that the tapes from 2000-2002 do not provide any new revalations that BB hasn't already admitted to <u>verbally</u>. The Boston Herald had spread a false rumor about a pre superbowl walkthrough tape that Walsh might have. Walsh never claimed that he had such a tape. Walsh only admitted to being in the same building as the Rams when they were practicing. NE fans took the lack of a walk through video as gospel, and attempted to spin the truth around that, even though it was a complete fabrication created by the Boston Herald. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Belichick has said he misinterpreted this rule in the league's constitution and bylaws. "Use at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which a club is a participant, of communication or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic device that might aid a team during the playing of a game." The NFL's game operations manual is clearer. Under videotaping policies, in a section titled "miscellaneous rules and regulations," it reads: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." Today: In response to a question at Tuesday's news conference about whether Belichick knew he was breaking league rules, Goodell said, "<u>I'm pretty well on the record here that I didn't accept Bill Belichick's explanation for what happened, and I still don't to this day</u>."</div> Bill B is a complete liar, and a cheater. His reputation is forever tainted. earlier this year: <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>After reviewing the tapes, the N.F.L. announced it had destroyed them, saying it did so to prevent them from being used to gain a competitive advantage.</div>(obviously, the Patriots did glean some advantage from the tapes, or the NFL wouldn't have told the world as much. They watched them, we didn't. Period.)
It was disturbing to find out they had cheated to a larger extent than I had thought previously thought. Still is seems appropriate to have waited for this confirmation. I'm no BearsFan (the mod), willing to just drag someone's name through the gutter at first sight of an infraction (eg. Favre). That was the only type of sensationalism I did not care for.
What strikes me is that a source still told the Boston Herald that a tape of the Rams walkthrough exists....so did someone make it up? If they did, why choose that Super Bowl? He could have choosen any of the 3....and the details provided, specific down to how he got back to the hotel, makes me think the tape exists, or atleast existed, but theres no way to confirm it unless someone else comes forward or Belicheat mans up and agrees to a polygraph....I think back to something Mort said a few weeks ago on one of the ESPN shows, he said that rumors of a Rams walkthrough tape had been around even before the Jets incident, but no one could run with it because there was no proof....thats still a ton of smoke to think there wasnt at one time fire....either way, Walsh's tapes prove with certain that the Patriots had been cheating during their entire run and in my opinion, that destroys everything they accomplished....as far as Im concerned the Rams have 2 titles, the Eagles have one and the Panthers have one....
What makes me sick, this morning, is listening to the talking heads downplay the cheating. There is an old saying, "If you really want to know what you believe, watch what you do everyday." If Belicheat didn't think that he was getting an advantage, then he wouldn't have had it done for SEVEN YEARS. The only thing that makes me sicker are all the people, who try at deflect and minimize the taint of cheating, by asserting that everyone does it when they have absolutely no proof. Then again, there's another old saying, "Put up or shut up."
This may not bring in any new information, but I still think it exposes how inadequate the initial punishments were. They may have done the job for cheating once, but now we're learning that this has gone on for a 5 year period. And unfortunately, the commissioner feels the need to stick by his initial punishment even though its allowing the Pats to get off easy.
I've never been moved by this story and my favorite team, the Steelers, lost two home AFC Championship games to New England. One of which was on Walsh's list of 8 tapes. I was also unmoved when the NCAA took away all of Michigan's accomplishments with Chris Webber. Technically, my UC Bearcats should have been in the 1992 National Championship game since after the fact, they "beat" Michigan. I'm far too jaded to expect any type of integrity in big dollar businesses. However, when you are caught, you are caught. Now that Goodell has corroboration my only question is why is Belichick still allowed to coach in the NFL?
I just heard on the NFL Network that Arlen Spector is taking the NFL to task because the New England Patriots had a member of their legal team attend the meeting with Walsh and Goodell which gave the impression that, perhaps, Walsh could not speak freely. Goodell is a joke. I found the story.
Could not speak freely? Are you serious DD? Personally I'm glad the story is done, and as for Specter, he should worry about his own state and work for his people, he shouldn't stick his dirty nose everywhere he sees a hole.
I don't think its over yet. Spectre is not satisfied. http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patr...er_calls_f.html <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Specter met with former Patriots video assistant Matt Walsh for three hours yesterday in his Hart Senate Office Building office. He said that Walsh told him that a former offensive player for the Patriots told Walsh a few days before a Sept. 11, 2000 game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers that the offensive player was called into a meeting with head coach Bill Belichick, then offensive coordinator Charlie Weis and Belichick confidant Ernie Adams. <u>During the meeting it was explained to the player how the signal tapes would be used</u>. According to Specter's recount of what Walsh detailed to him, <u>the offensive player, who was on the sidelines for the game, would memorize the signals</u> then watch for the Tampa Bay defensive calls during the game. He would then pass the call along to Weis, who would give instructions to the quarterback on the field. Specter's statement said that <u>the offensive player told Walsh that it helped the Patriots anticipate 75 percent of the defensive plays being called</u>.</div> And some say that their signal taping doesn't help! It's one thing to figure out signals during a game on your own. This is an entirely different level.
Geez, if that's true its pretty ridiculous. The one thing that's annoyed me the most about these charges is the lack of definitive evidence. We know the Pats cheated, but we don't know how much and how much it helped them. As a result, you have speculation as harsh as DD/The Beef or as dismissive as some of the Boston fans on here. If what Raider posted is true, however, that goes a long way towards giving us a better idea of how exactly they benefited and how much criticism they should take.
i could tell you exactly how they would benefit....the defense is forced to send in its signals right away because they have to be lined up and ready at anytime....the offense has all 40 seconds to get the same thing done....if you know what a teams defensive signals mean, you just read them and then call a play that will defeat that coverage....the evidence has been right in front of us all for years, the Patriots consistently won big with less talented players....everyone assumed that was because they were such a good "team"....they were lauded as being the model franchise, becuase they were doing things other teams could not....now we know how....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ May 15 2008, 07:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Geez, if that's true its pretty ridiculous. The one thing that's annoyed me the most about these charges is the lack of definitive evidence. We know the Pats cheated, but we don't know how much and how much it helped them. As a result, you have speculation as harsh as DD/The Beef or as dismissive as some of the Boston fans on here. If what Raider posted is true, however, that goes a long way towards giving us a better idea of how exactly they benefited and how much criticism they should take.</div> I have to concur with your view. Both extremes can seem unreasonable, but an edge was given to them and I don't like how the Boston Herald has focused on just the Rams' walkthrough tape.
I love how people overlook the fact that scouting/stealing signals is a legal practice in the NFL. Goodell even confirmed it in the press conference. The only rule broken by the Patriots was the rule that states you cannot use video cameras to scout them. The Patriots and Belichick have been punished already, and Matt Walsh brought no new evidence to the table. Arlen Specter is a joke who is merely pandering to his constituents in the Philadelphia area, and everybody else that hates the Patriots, for that matter (everybody outside New England). Next time your buddy is shipped off to Iraq, you're paying 4 dollars a gallon for gas or waiting in the unemployment line because your job got shipped overseas, be glad that a US Senator is spending his time on the clock trying to take down the team that beat his Eagles in the Super Bowl. Also, isn't it a little suspicious that Specter's biggest supporter is Comcast, who just so happens to be in a battle with the NFL over the NFL network?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I love how people overlook the fact that scouting/stealing signals is a legal practice in the NFL. Goodell even confirmed it in the press conference. The only rule broken by the Patriots was the rule that states you cannot use video cameras to scout them. The Patriots and Belichick have been punished already, and Matt Walsh brought no new evidence to the table. Arlen Specter is a joke who is merely pandering to his constituents in the Philadelphia area, and everybody else that hates the Patriots, for that matter (everybody outside New England). Next time your buddy is shipped off to Iraq, you're paying 4 dollars a gallon for gas or waiting in the unemployment line because your job got shipped overseas, be glad that a US Senator is spending his time on the clock trying to take down the team that beat his Eagles in the Super Bowl. Also, isn't it a little suspicious that Specter's biggest supporter is Comcast, who just so happens to be in a battle with the NFL over the NFL network?</div> They were quite systematic with their approach though. Remember, I don't like jumping to conclusions so this is just how I see it. I defended the Pats before when evidence was lacking. You have to admit it looks worse now, and the punishment given to them appears to have been handed down before all the tapes/evidence were given to Goodell. I'm not interested in nullifying their Championship rings, but I could see a few more picks being taken away.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I love how people overlook the fact that scouting/stealing signals is a legal practice in the NFL. Goodell even confirmed it in the press conference. The only rule broken by the Patriots was the rule that states you cannot use video cameras to scout them. The Patriots and Belichick have been punished already, and Matt Walsh brought no new evidence to the table. Arlen Specter is a joke who is merely pandering to his constituents in the Philadelphia area, and everybody else that hates the Patriots, for that matter (everybody outside New England). Next time your buddy is shipped off to Iraq, you're paying 4 dollars a gallon for gas or waiting in the unemployment line because your job got shipped overseas, be glad that a US Senator is spending his time on the clock trying to take down the team that beat his Eagles in the Super Bowl. Also, isn't it a little suspicious that Specter's biggest supporter is Comcast, who just so happens to be in a battle with the NFL over the NFL network?</div> Because, if Spector had spent the three hours interviewing Matt Walsh on fixing high gas prices and the war, then gas would be 1.70 a gallon and our boys would be coming home. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get my passport together so I can go get a decent job in Mexico. Dondea est el banyo!!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ May 15 2008, 02:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I love how people overlook the fact that scouting/stealing signals is a legal practice in the NFL. Goodell even confirmed it in the press conference. The only rule broken by the Patriots was the rule that states you cannot use video cameras to scout them. The Patriots and Belichick have been punished already, and Matt Walsh brought no new evidence to the table. Arlen Specter is a joke who is merely pandering to his constituents in the Philadelphia area, and everybody else that hates the Patriots, for that matter (everybody outside New England). Next time your buddy is shipped off to Iraq, you're paying 4 dollars a gallon for gas or waiting in the unemployment line because your job got shipped overseas, be glad that a US Senator is spending his time on the clock trying to take down the team that beat his Eagles in the Super Bowl. Also, isn't it a little suspicious that Specter's biggest supporter is Comcast, who just so happens to be in a battle with the NFL over the NFL network?</div> Because, if Spector had spent the three hours interviewing Matt Walsh on fixing high gas prices and the war, then gas would be 1.70 a gallon and our boys would be coming home. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get my passport together so I can go get a decent job in Mexico. Dondea est el banyo!!! </div> "Donde esta". : O
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 15 2008, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I love how people overlook the fact that scouting/stealing signals is a legal practice in the NFL. Goodell even confirmed it in the press conference. The only rule broken by the Patriots was the rule that states you cannot use video cameras to scout them. The Patriots and Belichick have been punished already, and Matt Walsh brought no new evidence to the table. Arlen Specter is a joke who is merely pandering to his constituents in the Philadelphia area, and everybody else that hates the Patriots, for that matter (everybody outside New England). Next time your buddy is shipped off to Iraq, you're paying 4 dollars a gallon for gas or waiting in the unemployment line because your job got shipped overseas, be glad that a US Senator is spending his time on the clock trying to take down the team that beat his Eagles in the Super Bowl. Also, isn't it a little suspicious that Specter's biggest supporter is Comcast, who just so happens to be in a battle with the NFL over the NFL network?</div> They were quite systematic with their approach though. Remember, I don't like jumping to conclusions so this is just how I see it. I defended the Pats before when evidence was lacking. You have to admit it looks worse now, and the punishment given to them appears to have been handed down before all the tapes/evidence were given to Goodell. I'm not interested in nullifying their Championship rings, but I could see a few more picks being taken away. </div>Belichick admitted, in his initial meeting with Goodell, to taping the signals for as long as he was with the Pats. He was asked to turn over the tapes, and he did. Obviously he couldn't turn over tapes that were in the possession of Matt Walsh. The tapes Walsh turned in were just more of the same, so it doesn't look worse, it looks the same. If the NFL can prove any of the new allegations, such as an IR player practicing or if Patriots staff was involved in ticket scalping, then sure, punish them for that. But everything with the new tapes was already owned up to by the Pats and Belichick, so there shouldn't be and won't be anymore punishment.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 15 2008, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I love how people overlook the fact that scouting/stealing signals is a legal practice in the NFL. Goodell even confirmed it in the press conference. The only rule broken by the Patriots was the rule that states you cannot use video cameras to scout them. The Patriots and Belichick have been punished already, and Matt Walsh brought no new evidence to the table. Arlen Specter is a joke who is merely pandering to his constituents in the Philadelphia area, and everybody else that hates the Patriots, for that matter (everybody outside New England). Next time your buddy is shipped off to Iraq, you're paying 4 dollars a gallon for gas or waiting in the unemployment line because your job got shipped overseas, be glad that a US Senator is spending his time on the clock trying to take down the team that beat his Eagles in the Super Bowl. Also, isn't it a little suspicious that Specter's biggest supporter is Comcast, who just so happens to be in a battle with the NFL over the NFL network?</div> They were quite systematic with their approach though. Remember, I don't like jumping to conclusions so this is just how I see it. I defended the Pats before when evidence was lacking. You have to admit it looks worse now, and the punishment given to them appears to have been handed down before all the tapes/evidence were given to Goodell. I'm not interested in nullifying their Championship rings, but I could see a few more picks being taken away. </div> In my view, the biggest joke here is that Belicheat hasn't missed a game. It's Belicheat's lack of suspension that forces me to conclude that Roger Goodell works for Robert Kraft.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 15 2008, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I love how people overlook the fact that scouting/stealing signals is a legal practice in the NFL. Goodell even confirmed it in the press conference. The only rule broken by the Patriots was the rule that states you cannot use video cameras to scout them. The Patriots and Belichick have been punished already, and Matt Walsh brought no new evidence to the table. Arlen Specter is a joke who is merely pandering to his constituents in the Philadelphia area, and everybody else that hates the Patriots, for that matter (everybody outside New England). Next time your buddy is shipped off to Iraq, you're paying 4 dollars a gallon for gas or waiting in the unemployment line because your job got shipped overseas, be glad that a US Senator is spending his time on the clock trying to take down the team that beat his Eagles in the Super Bowl. Also, isn't it a little suspicious that Specter's biggest supporter is Comcast, who just so happens to be in a battle with the NFL over the NFL network?</div> They were quite systematic with their approach though. Remember, I don't like jumping to conclusions so this is just how I see it. I defended the Pats before when evidence was lacking. You have to admit it looks worse now, and the punishment given to them appears to have been handed down before all the tapes/evidence were given to Goodell. I'm not interested in nullifying their Championship rings, but I could see a few more picks being taken away. </div>Belichick admitted, in his initial meeting with Goodell, to taping the signals for as long as he was with the Pats. He was asked to turn over the tapes, and he did. Obviously he couldn't turn over tapes that were in the possession of Matt Walsh. The tapes Walsh turned in were just more of the same, so it doesn't look worse, it looks the same. If the NFL can prove any of the new allegations, such as an IR player practicing or if Patriots staff was involved in ticket scalping, then sure, punish them for that. But everything with the new tapes was already owned up to by the Pats and Belichick, so there shouldn't be and won't be anymore punishment. </div> Well Matt added some extra anecdotal evidence in Specter's interview (what ROTR/Chutney referred to), and exposed that the Pats knew they were breaking the rules. I do see what you're saying though, in that case I feel the punishment was a tad light.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ May 15 2008, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 15 2008, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I love how people overlook the fact that scouting/stealing signals is a legal practice in the NFL. Goodell even confirmed it in the press conference. The only rule broken by the Patriots was the rule that states you cannot use video cameras to scout them. The Patriots and Belichick have been punished already, and Matt Walsh brought no new evidence to the table. Arlen Specter is a joke who is merely pandering to his constituents in the Philadelphia area, and everybody else that hates the Patriots, for that matter (everybody outside New England). Next time your buddy is shipped off to Iraq, you're paying 4 dollars a gallon for gas or waiting in the unemployment line because your job got shipped overseas, be glad that a US Senator is spending his time on the clock trying to take down the team that beat his Eagles in the Super Bowl. Also, isn't it a little suspicious that Specter's biggest supporter is Comcast, who just so happens to be in a battle with the NFL over the NFL network?</div> They were quite systematic with their approach though. Remember, I don't like jumping to conclusions so this is just how I see it. I defended the Pats before when evidence was lacking. You have to admit it looks worse now, and the punishment given to them appears to have been handed down before all the tapes/evidence were given to Goodell. I'm not interested in nullifying their Championship rings, but I could see a few more picks being taken away. </div> In my view, the biggest joke here is that Belicheat hasn't missed a game. It's Belicheat's lack of suspension that forces me to conclude that Roger Goodell works for Robert Kraft. </div> A suspension would have hurt the Pats chances in a few games, the lost draft pick will hurt them for years. If anything, the NFL should have taken the better 1st round pick away just because it ended up looking like a light punishment based on the fact that they had 2 picks anyway. Had the Pats only had one 1st, and the NFL took it away, the punishment would have appeared more severe. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 15 2008, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 15 2008, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I love how people overlook the fact that scouting/stealing signals is a legal practice in the NFL. Goodell even confirmed it in the press conference. The only rule broken by the Patriots was the rule that states you cannot use video cameras to scout them. The Patriots and Belichick have been punished already, and Matt Walsh brought no new evidence to the table. Arlen Specter is a joke who is merely pandering to his constituents in the Philadelphia area, and everybody else that hates the Patriots, for that matter (everybody outside New England). Next time your buddy is shipped off to Iraq, you're paying 4 dollars a gallon for gas or waiting in the unemployment line because your job got shipped overseas, be glad that a US Senator is spending his time on the clock trying to take down the team that beat his Eagles in the Super Bowl. Also, isn't it a little suspicious that Specter's biggest supporter is Comcast, who just so happens to be in a battle with the NFL over the NFL network?</div> They were quite systematic with their approach though. Remember, I don't like jumping to conclusions so this is just how I see it. I defended the Pats before when evidence was lacking. You have to admit it looks worse now, and the punishment given to them appears to have been handed down before all the tapes/evidence were given to Goodell. I'm not interested in nullifying their Championship rings, but I could see a few more picks being taken away. </div>Belichick admitted, in his initial meeting with Goodell, to taping the signals for as long as he was with the Pats. He was asked to turn over the tapes, and he did. Obviously he couldn't turn over tapes that were in the possession of Matt Walsh. The tapes Walsh turned in were just more of the same, so it doesn't look worse, it looks the same. If the NFL can prove any of the new allegations, such as an IR player practicing or if Patriots staff was involved in ticket scalping, then sure, punish them for that. But everything with the new tapes was already owned up to by the Pats and Belichick, so there shouldn't be and won't be anymore punishment. </div> Well Matt added some extra anecdotal evidence in Specter's interview (what ROTR/Chutney referred to), and exposed that the Pats knew they were breaking the rules. I do see what you're saying though, in that case I feel the punishment was a tad light. </div>That's all hearsay and shouldn't even be a consideration in our conversation until it can be proven. Ask the Boston Herald, you don't take things like that into consideration until you know that it's true. I also find it hard to believe that any team would use the same signals in two different games when, even the commisioner admits, scouting signals is an acceptable practice if done the correct way.
