10 Things I Now Know: 1. The Pittsburgh Steelers should have gotten a shot at the Rams in the Superbowl in 2002. The Steelers could have been the team of this decade had they not been cheated. 2. The Indianapolis Colts should have gotten a shot at the Panthers in the Superbowl in 2004. The Colts could have been the team of this deceade had they not been cheated. 3. The Indianapolis Colts should have gotten a shot at the Eagles in the Superbowl in 2005. The Eagles could have been the team of this decade had they not been cheated. 4. The knock that existed on several players and coaches for their failures to get to the Super Bowl and win it were not legitimate. Peyton Manning, Donavon McNabb, Bill Cowyer, and Tony Dungy come to mind. 5. The Hall of Fame may be effected by the fraud of the Patriots. Dungy could have 3 titles, Cowyer could have 2, McNabb could have 1, Manning could have 3. 6. Peyton Manning is the best QB of the 90s. 7. The Colts are the best team of the decade. The Steelers arent far behind. The Patriots are a distant 32nd. Matt Millen's Lions rank much higher than the Patriots and their record of 0-112. 8. Bill Belichek is not a Hall of Fame coach. All accolades he stole should be taken back and he should be banned for life from the NFL. 9. Many coaches have been fired, many players have been cut, many stadium workers have lost income, many teams have been harmed, the entire league has been tarnished, many fans have been damaged. The Patriots should be sued by anyone they stole from. 10. No Patriots fans will admit that this completely destroys everything done this decade and that the above 9 things are true.
this is what I'd call an over reaction. The Pats got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, but you still gotta play the game and other teams are always looking for an advantage too. you seriously think the rest of the teams weren't trying anything to get the upper hand? in the end it's not that big of a deal IMO, so they taped a few practices etc etc.. most times teams do the same thing each and ever game, it's not so hard to figure out a teams strenghts and weaknesses. It's not like the Pats didn't go 18-1 last year after they were caught.. I mean they lost every game once they stopped video taping.. on no wait.. I could be wrong
The thing that annoys me is Brady saying how he doesn't respect the Jets now. I have no idea if other teams have done this type of thing, but if they have they deserve the same penalty. But saying you don't respect a team b/c they found proof of you cheating doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If the Pats had proof of the Jets cheating, they would make sure it got to the commissioner, don't you think?
^ I agree. I've never understood how people have tried to demonize the Jets over this whole ordeal. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheBeef)</div><div class='quotemain'>6. Peyton Manning is the best QB of the 90s.</div> That was a given even before Spygate.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ May 15 2008, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>this is what I'd call an over reaction. The Pats got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, but you still gotta play the game and other teams are always looking for an advantage too. you seriously think the rest of the teams weren't trying anything to get the upper hand? in the end it's not that big of a deal IMO, so they taped a few practices etc etc.. most times teams do the same thing each and ever game, it's not so hard to figure out a teams strenghts and weaknesses. It's easy to assume other teams, other sports, and other players cheat...that's actually too easy of a way out of this argument.</div> The differece between this or that is that spygate now has found 15 smoking guns (15 video tapes to confirm it), Bill B's personal admissions, and the fact that the NFL found them to be in violation of league rules. What is that old saying? "Possession is 9/10 of the law"? I think that applies here, for anyone who tries to rationalize the cheating. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It's not like the Pats didn't go 18-1 last year after they were caught.. I mean they lost every game once they stopped video taping.. on no wait.. I could be wrong </div> Like Beef pointed out, in the early stages of their tape cheating, they were winning win teams that weren't loaded with all-pro talent. Patterns of winning have helped franchises attract the best free agents, convince excellent players to take pay cuts so they can load up their rosters with top notch talent. Even before we found out about Spygate last year (a year ago), everyone had the Patriots going to the Superbowl, and it was all based on them having slowly loaded up their team to the point where it was jammed full of the best free agents. Teams that go 4-12 have to spend more cap money to bring in the same players that a 12-4 team would be easily able to attract. They have to end up paying more for talent, generally speaking, and outbid last years division champions just to get that player. 18-1 is an *indirect* result of all their successful cheating. Not entirely, but to a large extent. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Another reason this particular issue might raise some attention is that this not only impacts their play on the field, but also the monetary value of the team. It can be argued that winning produces value...after these Pats became the THE team in New England after a few SB wins, their profit margin increased greatly. I remember hearing a segment on this a few year ago after their win over the Eagles, and I was currently residing in the area...it was on a local radio station. Cheating to win is one thing, being caught for it is another. You are not going to get all the offenders...just won't happen. But the $$$ link is what is interesting to me...Kraft has done pretty good for himself in this decade.</div>
You mean Peyton is the best Qb of the 2000s right? Because Peyton only played in 98 and 99.... and he wasn't so damn good in those years that he was the best QB of the 90s.
Lol yeah "2000's" was meant. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ May 15 2008, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>^ I agree. I've never understood how people have tried to demonize the Jets over this whole ordeal. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheBeef)</div><div class='quotemain'>6. Peyton Manning is the best QB of the 90s.</div> That was a given even before Spygate. </div> Chutney Rocks, and I love the Colts! I have nothing further to say about Spygate though, I think people have come to their own conclusions already.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ May 15 2008, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>this is what I'd call an over reaction. The Pats got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, but you still gotta play the game and other teams are always looking for an advantage too. you seriously think the rest of the teams weren't trying anything to get the upper hand? in the end it's not that big of a deal IMO, so they taped a few practices etc etc.. most times teams do the same thing each and ever game, it's not so hard to figure out a teams strenghts and weaknesses. It's not like the Pats didn't go 18-1 last year after they were caught.. I mean they lost every game once they stopped video taping.. on no wait.. I could be wrong </div> I'm going to number my counterpoints in the hopes that someone might actually try to actually address them, rather than try to deflect and change the subject. I won't be holding my breath however. 1. Yes, the Pats had to stop videotaping, but you don't think they have a file on every team in the NFL after SEVEN YEARS of videotaping? You don't think that advantage extended through last season? Even after teams learned what the Cheatriots were doing, after the Jets game, do you think it's that easy to scrap every signal you have and teach your team brand new ones? I'm sure that posed a fun challange for every team when they saw the Patriots on their schedule for the week. 2. The most damning testimony that the Patriots were getting an advantage is that Belicheat has them videotape over the course of SEVEN YEARS. That means Belicheat absolutely without a doubt believed that his team was gaining a competitive advantage. Otherwise, he wouldn't do it. Period. 3. Reducing the advantage to knowing a team's strengths and weaknesses is beyond over simplified. It's inaccurate. The Patriots weren't trying to know a teams strengths or weeknesses. Belicheat wanted his offense to know exactly what defense they were facing on that particular play. 4. Other teams might be trying to get the upper hand or even steal signals, but I haven't seen ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that suggests that other teams are violating NFL policies and videotaping signals. Does someone have some actual evidence that this is occuring? It's put up or shut up time. I won't hold my breath on this one either.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ May 15 2008, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The thing that annoys me is Brady saying how he doesn't respect the Jets now. I have no idea if other teams have done this type of thing, but if they have they deserve the same penalty. But saying you don't respect a team b/c they found proof of you cheating doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If the Pats had proof of the Jets cheating, they would make sure it got to the commissioner, don't you think?</div> Exactly. If the Patriots had evidence other teams were doing this, ESPECIALLY the Jets, then they would be reporting them. Well, I don't respect Brady anymore. I refuse to believe that this occured over seven years and none of the Cheatriot players knew it was going on, especially Brady, who is running the offense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ May 15 2008, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>4. Other teams might be trying to get the upper hand or even steal signals, but I haven't seen ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that suggests that other teams are violating NFL policies and videotaping signals. Does someone have some actual evidence that this is occuring? It's put up or shut up time. I won't hold my breath on this one either.</div> "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter." http://cgi.cnnsi.com/inside_game/magazine/...life_of_reilly/
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ May 15 2008, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>4. Other teams might be trying to get the upper hand or even steal signals, but I haven't seen ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that suggests that other teams are violating NFL policies and videotaping signals. Does someone have some actual evidence that this is occuring? It's put up or shut up time. I won't hold my breath on this one either.</div> "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter." http://cgi.cnnsi.com/inside_game/magazine/...life_of_reilly/ </div> Please re-read my post. I was asking for one shred of evidence that teams were violating NFL policies by VIDEOTAPING signals. VIDEOTAPING is the key word here. The Shanahan quote says nothing about VIDEOTAPING. Do you have evidence regarding VIDEOTAPING?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ May 15 2008, 02:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ May 15 2008, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>4. Other teams might be trying to get the upper hand or even steal signals, but I haven't seen ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that suggests that other teams are violating NFL policies and videotaping signals. Does someone have some actual evidence that this is occuring? It's put up or shut up time. I won't hold my breath on this one either.</div> "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter." http://cgi.cnnsi.com/inside_game/magazine/...life_of_reilly/ </div> Please re-read my post. I was asking for one shred of evidence that teams were violating NFL policies by VIDEOTAPING signals. VIDEOTAPING is the key word here. The Shanahan quote says nothing about VIDEOTAPING. Do you have evidence regarding VIDEOTAPING? </div> Dale, this is the typical way that people distract from the real truth. They attempt to equate signal interpretation with rules violation.
<span style="color:#000080">Personal Attack edited by the Beef</span> First, you give us a list of 10 things you know, all based upon the Pats stealing signals. Then, you ask for proof that other teams steal signals. I give you evidence directly out of a coach's mouth, and you dismiss it because it makes you look as unbelievably naive as you really are. Stealing signals is stealing signals no matter how its done. You can't condemn it by videotape, but support it by binoculars. That's just stupid.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ May 15 2008, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, you seriously are a joke. I can't even believe how illogical you can be. First, you give us a list of 10 things you know, all based upon the Pats stealing signals. Then, you ask for proof that other teams steal signals. I give you evidence directly out of a coach's mouth, and you dismiss it because it makes you look as unbelievably naive as you really are. Stealing signals is stealing signals no matter how its done. You can't condemn it by videotape, but support it by binoculars. That's just stupid.</div> 1. I didn't give you a list of 10 things. Beef did. 2. You didn't give me evidence about anything. You gave me a quote from a head coach about binoculars. 3. I asked for proof about VIDEOTAPING coach's signals. 4. Stealing signals isn't stealing signals no matter how it's done. You can't watch signals through binoculars and then replay it for the coach later. Then hit rewind and look at them over and over again. That's why VIDEOTAPING is illegal and watching with binoculars isn't. Not being able to distinguish between the two is just stupid.
http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/p...e-is-overblown/ <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Q: Via video, Jimmy? Or no? JJ: Oh yeah, I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league. Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you’re going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace. Q: But did you do it by taping the signal caller? JJ: Yeah. Q: Oh you did. JJ: That’s what I’m saying. I was saying one of Marty Schottenheimer’s scouts, Mark Hatley, who has passed away now, Mark told me that’s how they did it, and Howard Mudd their offensive line coach with Kansas City, who now coaches for Tony Dungy, he was the best in the entire league at stealing signals. Q: Where’d you put your guy who was videotaping? Where was he? JJ: My guy was up with my camera crew in the press box. So you’d just put an extra camera up with your camera crew in the press box who zoomed in on the signal callers. That’s the best way to do it, but anyway you can’t always do that because the press box camera crew might be on the same side as the opposing team. If they’re on the same side as the opposing team that’s when you need to do it from the sideline.</div> That's Jimmy "How 'bout them Cowboys" Johnson. He went on to coach the Dolphins as well. And, while I may be making a leap here, the taping expert now works for the all-mighty Tony Dungy. In my opinion, this gives the Anti-Patriots folk two choices. First, you could campaign just as hard against any achievements made by Johnson's Cowboys, and if you chose that, I will be holding you to it. Second, you could do as Johnson says (earlier in the interview) and campaign against any achievements by the Patriots after the September 2006 memo about recording. So if you want to take away the loss to the Giants and the choke job in the 06 AFC Championship game...go right ahead. The choice is now yours.
First of all, before you accuse anymore people of doing what the Patriots have done, <u>where are the tapes</u>? It's easy to say things when you are out of football, and have been for quite some time. Jimmy Johnson, in this interview, is describing events that happened during his time with Dallas. The video rule in 1999 came after that. Anything that happened before 1999 has no bearing on what happened with respect to Spygate. If there is another team that is practicing this video taping, then we should definitely have an investigation on par with the Mitchell report. We all know that Goodell isn't going to come clean on that on his own, let alone the extent at which the Pats were cheating. NE fans should be BEGGING Congress to write up every other team that is also doing this, just for the sake of taking some of the criticism off of them! Until then, the Patriots have been proven guilty. No other team has. Everything else is to this point is heresay.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (agoo101284 @ May 15 2008, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>In my opinion, this gives the Anti-Patriots folk two choices. First, you could campaign just as hard against any achievements made by Johnson's Cowboys, and if you chose that, I will be holding you to it. Second, you could do as Johnson says (earlier in the interview) and campaign against any achievements by the Patriots after the September 2006 memo about recording. So if you want to take away the loss to the Giants and the choke job in the 06 AFC Championship game...go right ahead. The choice is now yours.</div> No one needs to do anything. The video taping was not against the rules when Dallas won their SB's. Know what it means to have an "even playing field". That means that everyone has the right to do it. That has not been the case since 1999.
Who cares. This point is pretty much finished. I, like many others, will never look at the Patriots the same way again after this controversy. It's clear to me that they had the upper advantage against many teams, and benefited because of that. You can (Patriot fans mostly) go on and on about how other teams may be cheating too, but like previously mentioned, I don't think any team actually goes out and video tapes the opposing team's signals, which would allow them to replay the signals over again and again and again. Think about how much of an advantage any team would get if they have tapes of opposing team's signals. Again, this point is pretty much finished. Everyone knows the Patriots are cheaters, and I kind of chuckle at the fans who continue to defend them
Some important points, most of which will be ignored by Patriots fans.... 1. I did mean that Peyton Manning is the best QB of this decade. 2. It is not against the rules to steal signals in the NFL. It is against the rules to do it using video equipment. Binoculars are legal and Im sure widely used. So Yes, you can condemn the video tapes and not the binoculars. 3. Bemoan the advantage all you want, but Belicheat wouldnt have done it if the advantage was there. 4. The success the Patriots had this decade is because of cheating. That success lead to advantages in building the current team, and therefore, taints what they did in 2007 just like it did earlier in the decade. It will be several seasons, maybe more, before the Patriots will field a legitmate team without these advantages, and therefore, they will go 0-160 for this decade unless they agree to release all free agents stolen under false pretenses and all players that re-signed there below market value.
