Baron All About Baron As Usual

^^^while I do think it would be smart for Baron to ask for less to be able to get more pieces in G. State, I can't blame him. While Billups and Nash have had more success, they have also had more to work with than Davis. I really would like to see Baron stay in G. State for less, and for the Warriors to finally get a big man, because they're really fun to watch, but I can't blame him for wanting the cash.................

 

Typical Warriors situation. It's difficult to get over the hump. At a point where the Warriors were in a good situation to make a lot of noise (in particular after last season) the team decides to go with the future and trade JRich for Brandan Wright. To me, it would seem that the next move is that Baron comes back with difficult conditions (either at a BIG salary for few years or less - which it seems as if he does not want that - or he stays with a big salary and several years) or the team continues with the previous path of building and maintaining a young core of players including Monta, Andris, and Wright and lets Baron go.

 

I agree with Shape. I personally believe if he wants to be a 60 mil player at his age, he's got to shoot and pass the ball better. A good 30 year old point guard still remembers how to lead his team, shoot well and deliver the ball. He makes others better and like Shape said he's not a franchise player because of this. His defense has also been sketchy when he opts to gamble for steals rather than play strong defensive positioning in the zone.

Last year, I just didn't see an improvement in Baron other than a few point increases in fg% and ft% + 82 games played, but he's still a rhythm killing gunner IMO. He's the kind of player that coaches would probably leave out of the all-star ballot because he's not setting up his guys. I'm seeing a potential ego type like Stevie Francis or a Stephon Marbury waiting to happen where if we don't have Don Nelson stay, Baron might be a problem for the next coach. 8 assists per game is nothing if he's taking 25 or more shots a game and passing only 8 times while playing sketch defense..

We're also talking some kind of future injury possibility that might not make him the same player that he was. Or he might just coast and put up crappy fg% with twice the attempts of everybody else if he's not feeling like playing. Before the warriors he was contemplating retiring because of his situation with New Orleans. Also, just like Clif was mentioning it may be hard to rebuild a team with a guy like Baron wanting a lot of money and to win right now. We need cap room and cap flexibility to make the team better and Baron is just looking out for #1 even though he's made so much more money than everyone else in the past just sitting on the IL. Where is the justice for fans that want a good team without all the millionaire primadonnas like Baron. Our billionaire owner ain't even that rich in comparison to all other nba owners. That's why he mistakenly comes off as cheap. Jamison wants the max. Arenas wants the max. How about we get a guy that makes everyone around him better or plays first or second team defense in addition to something else. Then we can throw that kind of money out there because any player that makes this team better inside (defensively/offensively) really deserves the max.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ May 17 2008, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I agree with Shape. I personally believe if he wants to be a 60 mil player at his age, he's got to shoot and pass the ball better. A good 30 year old point guard still remembers how to lead his team, shoot well and deliver the ball. He makes others better and like Shape said he's not a franchise player because of this. His defense has also been sketchy when he opts to gamble for steals rather than play strong defensive positioning in the zone.

Last year, I just didn't see an improvement in Baron other than a few point increases in fg% and ft% + 82 games played, but he's still a rhythm killing gunner IMO. He's the kind of player that coaches would probably leave out of the all-star ballot because he's not setting up his guys. I'm seeing a potential ego type like Stevie Francis or a Stephon Marbury waiting to happen where if we don't have Don Nelson stay, Baron might be a problem for the next coach. 8 assists per game is nothing if he's taking 25 or more shots a game and passing only 8 times while playing sketch defense..

We're also talking some kind of future injury possibility that might not make him the same player that he was. Or he might just coast and put up crappy fg% with twice the attempts of everybody else if he's not feeling like playing. Before the warriors he was contemplating retiring because of his situation with New Orleans. Also, just like Clif was mentioning it may be hard to rebuild a team with a guy like Baron wanting a lot of money and to win right now. We need cap room and cap flexibility to make the team better and Baron is just looking out for #1 even though he's made so much more money than everyone else in the past just sitting on the IL. Where is the justice for fans that want a good team without all the millionaire primadonnas like Baron. Our billionaire owner ain't even that rich in comparison to all other nba owners. That's why he mistakenly comes off as cheap. Jamison wants the max. Arenas wants the max. How about we get a guy that makes everyone around him better or plays first or second team defense in addition to something else. Then we can throw that kind of money out there because any player that makes this team better inside (defensively/offensively) really deserves the max.</div>

I don't think Jamison wanted the max per se. At least he was not demanding the max, as far as my knowledge. I just think that was the team's decision to overpay Jamison in like a PR stunt to show the fans that they are willing to spend money to keep players around - just as the Fortson contract was a move to show that the team is willing to throw money around to add decent players to the team.

I agree that there is not so much justice, kind of as you put it, for fans who have to see their teams make moves based on contracts and money instead of making the team better. One example of this is the Gasol trade to the Lakers for just about nobody. For the Warriors this trade was Jason Richardson for Brandan Wright. Basically as a fan you need a team with exceptional ownership/management to have much of a shot at winning anything in this league. I think this is apparent by the teams that have won the last several championships with the Spurs, Pistons, and Lakers.

My previous comments were based on Baron's agents statement:
"After sitting down with the Warriors' organization regarding Baron's future, I don't know what direction the Warriors are going," Ramasar said. "Baron is adamant about remaining a Warrior but based on my conversations with the team, we have to consider all of his options."

It's very difficult to predict the future of this team. In the past it was kind of fun. Now I just don't think it is worth trying.

But I would give Baron more credit for this team than you, CR2, for what he has done with the team. He is the team's PG, basically the only PG for this team. He is not perfect, but he's pretty darn good. He kind of runs into a predicament when he has the blackhole in Harrington and the semi-blackhole in Stephen Jackson on the court at the same time. Even if he wanted to pass the ball around, it is not going to happen so much passing it to those two guys. But I am sure he can improve.

This said, I don't know about giving him a huge, long term contract either.

The next side of the situation is, who out there has the money to give Baron Davis a better contract/salary than the one he will get if he stays at $17.8 million? Maybe the Warriors are banking on that there are no teams that will throw that money at Baron, which is why the team has been passive about coming to an agreement with Baron and why the article mentioned how Mullin will not act until he sees what happens after June 30, when the opt-out deadline passes.

 

Say what you guys want about Baron. He's not a building block and if he gets what he wants, the team will be in huge financial trouble. We'll see how far we go if he's locked up for big money and for a lot of years. He's one of the best point guards in the league who'll have a huge drop in value if his ego, shot attempts and injuries are dragging the team down. He'll be untradeable if something happens. You ever wonder why Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis are no longer big stars, just look at their qualities versus Nash, Stockton, and Chris Paul. These guys are opting to score their own way rather than run the team. We'd be better off saving the money and using it on whichever athletic, 20/10 shotblocking big man we manage to find rather than locking up two point guards with Monta Ellis and Baron + re-signing Biedrins as a PF/C. The max or near max should be reserved for big man stars or guys who got a shot of making everyone around them better. I'm not seeing it in Baron anymore and once that explosiveness goes, his shooting won't save his career like older point guards. I don't trust him to hog the cap. He's looking out for his own bottom line despite all the money he's made. I'd rather see the team flexible rather than "as good as we can get" with Baron and a bunch of developing rookies. Just wait, if we keep Baron and we still don't improve, he'll pull a Kobe tantrum because that's what guys with egos do.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ May 18 2008, 10:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Say what you guys want about Baron. He's not a building block and if he gets what he wants, the team will be in huge financial trouble. We'll see how far we go if he's locked up for big money and for a lot of years. He's one of the best point guards in the league who'll have a huge drop in value if his ego, shot attempts and injuries are dragging the team down. He'll be untradeable if something happens. You ever wonder why Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis are no longer big stars, just look at their qualities versus Nash, Stockton, and Chris Paul. These guys are opting to score their own way rather than run the team. We'd be better off saving the money and using it on whichever athletic, 20/10 shotblocking big man we manage to find rather than locking up two point guards with Monta Ellis and Baron + re-signing Biedrins as a PF/C. The max or near max should be reserved for big man stars or guys who got a shot of making everyone around them better. I'm not seeing it in Baron anymore and once that explosiveness goes, his shooting won't save his career like older point guards. I don't trust him to hog the cap. He's looking out for his own bottom line despite all the money he's made. I'd rather see the team flexible rather than "as good as we can get" with Baron and a bunch of developing rookies. Just wait, if we keep Baron and we still don't improve, he'll pull a Kobe tantrum because that's what guys with egos do.</div>

I don't want to get in huge financial trouble because we weren't a good team in the past when we put money out on players who didn't live up to their paychecks. I think Baron will be the same way. If we have to end up sucking again, then it would be better to rebuild with the young guys -- AB, Monta and Wright, but I wonder how Nellie would do in that situation? He'd have a freakin' major cow!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jason voorhees @ May 19 2008, 07:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If we have to end up sucking again, then it would be better to rebuild with the young guys -- AB, Monta and Wright, but I wonder how Nellie would do in that situation? He'd have a freakin' major cow!!!</div>
Yeah, I think that's the problem that is really gumming up the whole machine: the fact that we have not one but two important pieces, Baron and Nellie, and to some extent they are linked. Baron won't play for most other coaches like he plays for Nellie, and Nellie likes Baron and is probably one of the few coaches who can tolerate him. How many other coaches are going to let Baron continually chuck up 23' bricks with :21 left on the shot clock without so much as a word? Not knowing how much longer Nellie is going to be here makes it extremely difficult to get the other pieces to fall into place because I think we all know this is going to be a very different team once Nellie leaves. One of Nelson's great strengths is that he can command the respect of many players unlike most other head coaches, which also affects things like deciding what to do with SJax, keeping Barnes or Pietrus reasonably happy with limited minutes, or whether to try acquiring Artest.

Bottom line is I don't think the Warriors are going to be able to do much next year no matter what. They may make the playoffs, but they won't go deep in them. The Warriors have some easy to trade guys (Ellis, Beiedrins, Wright) that they really want to keep, and some hard to trade guys like Baron and Al. If I had to guess, I'd guess that both Nellie and Baron will be back. I say let's just have one more year of entertaining Nellieball, get Wright and Belinelli some major playing time so we can see what we have in them, spend the year evaluating (and maybe courting behind the scenes) potential head coaches to replace Nelson, including Keith Smart. If you can make a big trade before the deadline that will help us in the future, then do it, but don't make that trade for the current playoffs and jeopardize the future. Make the trade with a different team and different head coach in mind.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HiRez @ May 19 2008, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I think that's the problem that is really gumming up the whole machine: the fact that we have not one but two important pieces, Baron and Nellie, and to some extent they are linked. Baron won't play for most other coaches like he plays for Nellie, and Nellie likes Baron and is probably one of the few coaches who can tolerate him. How many other coaches are going to let Baron continually chuck up 23' bricks with :21 left on the shot clock without so much as a word? Not knowing how much longer Nellie is going to be here makes it extremely difficult to get the other pieces to fall into place because I think we all know this is going to be a very different team once Nellie leaves. One of Nelson's great strengths is that he can command the respect of many players unlike most other head coaches, which also affects things like deciding what to do with SJax, keeping Barnes or Pietrus reasonably happy with limited minutes, or whether to try acquiring Artest.

Bottom line is I don't think the Warriors are going to be able to do much next year no matter what. They may make the playoffs, but they won't go deep in them. The Warriors have some easy to trade guys (Ellis, Beiedrins, Wright) that they really want to keep, and some hard to trade guys like Baron and Al. If I had to guess, I'd guess that both Nellie and Baron will be back. I say let's just have one more year of entertaining Nellieball, get Wright and Belinelli some major playing time so we can see what we have in them, spend the year evaluating (and maybe courting behind the scenes) potential head coaches to replace Nelson, including Keith Smart. If you can make a big trade before the deadline that will help us in the future, then do it, but don't make that trade for the current playoffs and jeopardize the future. Make the trade with a different team and different head coach in mind.</div>

I think you've hit the nail on the head HiRez. This is a combo package deal from a team perspective. I don't think Mullin has too many options besides Baron and Nellie for next year. The best of both worlds was Baron coming back to play one more year. Mullin could still take a chance by calling Baron's bluff. I don't think Baron will leave $17 M on the table unless he was assured somehow that he would get it back in the open market. There's a limited number of teams in position to make him that kind of offer. Second, the teams would question the same things we've been questioning about Baron -- his health, his attitude and whether he can get along with the head coach. The question would be what would be the downside of Baron leaving the team and we don't get anything or much in return?

 

Do you think it is possible that the Warriors use Baron to go after Carmello. Reading some of the other forums there seems to be some speculation that he may have asked to be traded. I have long been against locking Baron up long term but I think Denver would be willing to take a chance on him. Melo would give us a dominant 3 for after Nellie leaves and I know that Nelson would probably play him at 4, which I'm not thrilled about, but I do think he would be better there that Pietrus or Barnes. I don't know how the salaries match up but talent wise I think this is a pretty fair deal.

 

One thing that really gets me about Carmelo Anthony is his maturity issues. Other times it's because he doesn't think. I like the fact he's an NCAA champ.

Carmelo could help us beyond individual scoring, though. He's got every move in the book down and could be an asset in terms of inside scoring, freeing up other players, and finishing around the hoop. He can get to the foul line constantly and rebound, so that would help us in areas which are badly needed.

The question is what do we do with Sjax if such a trade went down? I would like to see Melo at the 3, Jax at the 2, with Bwright at the 4. Knowing Nelly, he won't do that and instead go with his gimmicky matchups and trade size for speed. Melo would probably be more effective playing small forward than power forward, wouldn't he? Having all that strength and quickness is his biggest asset against full time players at the small forward spot. Sjax's biggest asset is he won't get outmuscled by small forwards and power forwards and he can use his length to shoot over and defend smaller shooting guards. A combo of Melo + Sjax could be more clutch than Baron + Sjax and I'm not talking about just shooting from the foul line. We're talking more reliable shooters overall. The hard part is finding somebody who can take care of the ball... I swear if we had Monta, Biedrins, Melo, + Sjax on the same team, we'd lead the league in turnovers. Baron's best attribute is that he's an extremely good ballhandler with excellent control. Not many guys can take the ball away from him, because if they try, Baron is already gone in a heartbeat.

 

Baron deserves at least $12-13 million. Baron will get at least $15-16 million.

Rashard Lewis got a 5 year $75 million dollar deal. $15 million a year for choking in the playoffs, while Baron steps his game up in the playoffs.

Ben Wallace also got a massive contract. NBA teams need to unite and stop overpaying players forcing them to sign for something fair.

But unfortunately these teams are competing with each other, and you will always find one willing to overpay a certain player.


And Baron wouldn't be too smart opting out of his contract this year. Almost every team is over the salary cap, and can only give him the MLE. Maybe Goldenstate knows this, and is trying to lowball him.

He will have to get signed then traded for that massive contract. Maybe the Rockets can get him for Battier/Landry and Bobby Jackson.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ May 20 2008, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>One thing that really gets me about Carmelo Anthony is his maturity issues. Other times it's because he doesn't think. I like the fact he's an NCAA champ.

Carmelo could help us beyond individual scoring, though. He's got every move in the book down and could be an asset in terms of inside scoring, freeing up other players, and finishing around the hoop. He can get to the foul line constantly and rebound, so that would help us in areas which are badly needed.

The question is what do we do with Sjax if such a trade went down? I would like to see Melo at the 3, Jax at the 2, with Bwright at the 4. Knowing Nelly, he won't do that and instead go with his gimmicky matchups and trade size for speed. Melo would probably be more effective playing small forward than power forward, wouldn't he? Having all that strength and quickness is his biggest asset against full time players at the small forward spot. Sjax's biggest asset is he won't get outmuscled by small forwards and power forwards and he can use his length to shoot over and defend smaller shooting guards. A combo of Melo + Sjax could be more clutch than Baron + Sjax and I'm not talking about just shooting from the foul line. We're talking more reliable shooters overall. The hard part is finding somebody who can take care of the ball... I swear if we had Monta, Biedrins, Melo, + Sjax on the same team, we'd lead the league in turnovers. Baron's best attribute is that he's an extremely good ballhandler with excellent control. Not many guys can take the ball away from him, because if they try, Baron is already gone in a heartbeat.</div>

When Melo plays against the Warriors, I do like what I see. The times I've seen him, Melo has been a behind the scenes kind of guy, doing what it takes for his team to win -- get a rebound here, score, make a pass, hit the open j. At the end of the night, you're kinda surprised that he's hit 29 pts. He's also taller than you think for a guy who plays the sf position.

That said, I've seen LeBron James who is a rival to Carmelo, but if you put LBJ on the Nuggets, then they become instant contenders. LBJ makes the other guys better even though if you look at each other's stats, they look similar. Carmelo is more of a complementary superstar. What you hear is true. People say you have to have the right players to build around Carmelo. Denver appears to have done a pretty good job of it, but then they get the some players or the team quit comments right after they're bounced from the playoffs. It's no wonder the Nuggets want to trade him. And I agree Monta, Biedrins, SJax and Melo on the same team would be a turnover waiting to happen.

What team would Carmelo be a good fit on? I think it would the Isiah Thomas' Knicks. He'd be a good fit there.