Kobe vs. MJ

lol at my post getting picked apart, listen I enjoy watching both players and I study the game of basketball. I'm not saying Kobe is better than Jordan (although he might be at the end of his career), but offensively Kobe can just make things up on the fly. Every move that MJ had Kobe has those, and also a numerous amount of counter moves......MJ is better defensively imo, but you can't simply compare stats for the simple fact that Kobe had to differ to Shaq for years early on his career...........

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think I've ever seen Kobe do that.</div>

I'm guessing we never seen kobe go head to head with Pippen.........

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I think Kobe played against Pippen lots, especially when Pip played for Portland.</div>

and Kobe used to kill him...haha........MJ isn't the only guy to make someone look foolish in a one on one situation.......

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ever see Kobe do this?</div>

lol...imo that really isn't that hard to do, I mean he was looking at the basket and then closed his eyes before the release, haha.........

 

The stats will always favor Jordan, but the Shaq-era Kobe had to subjugate himself.

Jordan's still the best though, but your numbers are off.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ May 22 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>"Kobe can do things Michael never could."

I see something like that and have to shake my head. I admit I'm a biased Bulls fan, but I also happen to like the Lakers and Kobe, too.

Kobe's a 22PPG career playoff scorer. Jordan averaged 33.4PPG for his career in the playoffs.

Jordan put up 32.4 PPG in 21 playoff games at the age of 34. Heck, Jordan was a top 15 player in the NBA with the Wizards at the age of 40.

Kobe still can't do what Jordan could do as a rookie and 2nd year player. Look at what Jordan singlehandedly did to the Celtics in the playoffs - 63 points against triple teams, often scoring against all 5 Celtics trying to defend him on a single play.

Jordan's game evolved as he grew as a player. Kobe looks like the same player he's been for years. Time will tell if Kobe can adjust and play at a high level well into his 30s.

Jordan turned himself into an effective power forward late in his career, scoring from the post with his back to the basket on play after play. Just when you thought you saw it all, he'd go nail 6 straight 3 pointers.

Jordan won 5 MVPs, 6 NBA titles, and led his team to near back-to-back 70 win seasons.

Jordan is 3rd lifetime in total points scored, Kobe hasn't broken the top 20 yet.

Kobe's 81 points in a game is an outstanding achievement. He scored 50 points in a game 23 times in his career. Jordan only scored 69 as his best and 50 points over 30 times. Kobe might catch him on that score.

Kobe's not done yet, that's for sure. The Lakers still have to prove they can win a championship with this current roster, let alone win 3 more to match Jordan's totals.

Kobe's career stats:
25 PPG, 4.1 RPG, 4.6 APG

Jordan's career stats:
30.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.3 APG</div>
You have good points in some ways but your stats are off both in their correctness and interpretation.

Kobe's a career 24ppg scorer in the playoffs, not 22ppg.

Unlike Jordan, who came to Chicago as an accomplished college player and became "the man" immediately, Kobe was drafted out of high school. His first 3 years in the league shouldn't count towards his actual averages because only in his 4th year was he the same age as Jordan when entering the league.
A bigger point is that if you want to compare Kobe and MJ, you should consider who they played with. For majority of his career, Kobe played with Shaq, who was the main offensive option for the team. He took away a lot of Kobe's shots and touches. Thus a better comparison would be when Kobe plays alone, without Shaq.

You're severely underrating Kobe's 81 pt and 63 pt games. You're saying that MJ got 63 against the Celtics who doubled and tripled him. The Laker team that Kobe was on had almost NO offensive potential. Kobe faced those same doubled all the time, and still managed to split them consistently.

You're also saying that Jordan evolved as a player while Kobe didn't - are you kidding? Jordan developed a lethal mid-range game in his 30s, when age started to show. Kobe is ALREADY a deadly shooter from anywhere on the court. Kobe came in as a high flying dunker and turned into one of the best all around players. Pick any of Kobe's games - look at what he relies on to be effective. You'll be amazed. Unlike most shooting guards, he doesn't rely on his speed or athletic ability as much as fakes, hesitation moves and dribble moves.

As for shooting ability, Kobe far surpasses Michael. You may want to check how many shots each player needed to get their points. For the career, including Kobe's first 3 seasons, Kobe scored 25 ppg on 19 FGAs. Jordan needed 22.9 FGA to average 30.4 points for his career. It is also important to note that because of physicality of the game, Jordan shot more free throws than Kobe.
You mentioned that Jordan would post you up then swish 6 straight threes. For the career, Jordan is a poor long range shooter, especially for the position that he played, which should provide three point shooting. Even during Jordan's best years, he made 1.4 threes per game, which is comparable to Kobe's CAREER average of 1.3, which includes his first 5 years in the league during which he made less than 1 three per game. Today, in his prime, Kobe makes almost 2 threes per game at a pretty nice pace .

Defensively, there are plenty of critics who will tell you that Jordan was overrated defensively. He got a large share of steals and played good D, but he was nowhere near what he was hyped to me. Those same arguments are made against Kobe as well. Basically, they're both a little overrated defensively. Jordan because he gambled on steals, which compromised team defense (like Iverson and Chris Paul do); Kobe because he sometimes forgets about it and concentrates on the other end of the floor - something that I'm sure Jordan did occasionally as well. Defensively, they're very close.

What it boils down to is that Jordan may forever be unsurpassed in stats per game because he was such a great and dominating player on a team that needed a dominating player. Today the focus has shifted much more towards teamwork and it virtually becomes impossible to duplicate his efforts, although LeBron is trying.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ May 22 2008, 06:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ May 22 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>"Kobe can do things Michael never could."

I see something like that and have to shake my head. I admit I'm a biased Bulls fan, but I also happen to like the Lakers and Kobe, too.

Kobe's a 22PPG career playoff scorer. Jordan averaged 33.4PPG for his career in the playoffs.

Jordan put up 32.4 PPG in 21 playoff games at the age of 34. Heck, Jordan was a top 15 player in the NBA with the Wizards at the age of 40.

Kobe still can't do what Jordan could do as a rookie and 2nd year player. Look at what Jordan singlehandedly did to the Celtics in the playoffs - 63 points against triple teams, often scoring against all 5 Celtics trying to defend him on a single play.

Jordan's game evolved as he grew as a player. Kobe looks like the same player he's been for years. Time will tell if Kobe can adjust and play at a high level well into his 30s.

Jordan turned himself into an effective power forward late in his career, scoring from the post with his back to the basket on play after play. Just when you thought you saw it all, he'd go nail 6 straight 3 pointers.

Jordan won 5 MVPs, 6 NBA titles, and led his team to near back-to-back 70 win seasons.

Jordan is 3rd lifetime in total points scored, Kobe hasn't broken the top 20 yet.

Kobe's 81 points in a game is an outstanding achievement. He scored 50 points in a game 23 times in his career. Jordan only scored 69 as his best and 50 points over 30 times. Kobe might catch him on that score.

Kobe's not done yet, that's for sure. The Lakers still have to prove they can win a championship with this current roster, let alone win 3 more to match Jordan's totals.

Kobe's career stats:
25 PPG, 4.1 RPG, 4.6 APG

Jordan's career stats:
30.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.3 APG</div>
You have good points in some ways but your stats are off both in their correctness and interpretation.

Kobe's a career 24ppg scorer in the playoffs, not 22ppg.

Unlike Jordan, who came to Chicago as an accomplished college player and became "the man" immediately, Kobe was drafted out of high school. His first 3 years in the league shouldn't count towards his actual averages because only in his 4th year was he the same age as Jordan when entering the league.
A bigger point is that if you want to compare Kobe and MJ, you should consider who they played with. For majority of his career, Kobe played with Shaq, who was the main offensive option for the team. He took away a lot of Kobe's shots and touches. Thus a better comparison would be when Kobe plays alone, without Shaq.

You're severely underrating Kobe's 81 pt and 63 pt games. You're saying that MJ got 63 against the Celtics who doubled and tripled him. The Laker team that Kobe was on had almost NO offensive potential. Kobe faced those same doubled all the time, and still managed to split them consistently.

You're also saying that Jordan evolved as a player while Kobe didn't - are you kidding? Jordan developed a lethal mid-range game in his 30s, when age started to show. Kobe is ALREADY a deadly shooter from anywhere on the court. Kobe came in as a high flying dunker and turned into one of the best all around players. Pick any of Kobe's games - look at what he relies on to be effective. You'll be amazed. Unlike most shooting guards, he doesn't rely on his speed or athletic ability as much as fakes, hesitation moves and dribble moves.

As for shooting ability, Kobe far surpasses Michael. You may want to check how many shots each player needed to get their points. For the career, including Kobe's first 3 seasons, Kobe scored 25 ppg on 19 FGAs. Jordan needed 22.9 FGA to average 30.4 points for his career. It is also important to note that because of physicality of the game, Jordan shot more free throws than Kobe.
You mentioned that Jordan would post you up then swish 6 straight threes. For the career, Jordan is a poor long range shooter, especially for the position that he played, which should provide three point shooting. Even during Jordan's best years, he made 1.4 threes per game, which is comparable to Kobe's CAREER average of 1.3, which includes his first 5 years in the league during which he made less than 1 three per game. Today, in his prime, Kobe makes almost 2 threes per game at a pretty nice pace .

Defensively, there are plenty of critics who will tell you that Jordan was overrated defensively. He got a large share of steals and played good D, but he was nowhere near what he was hyped to me. Those same arguments are made against Kobe as well. Basically, they're both a little overrated defensively. Jordan because he gambled on steals, which compromised team defense (like Iverson and Chris Paul do); Kobe because he sometimes forgets about it and concentrates on the other end of the floor - something that I'm sure Jordan did occasionally as well. Defensively, they're very close.

What it boils down to is that Jordan may forever be unsurpassed in stats per game because he was such a great and dominating player on a team that needed a dominating player. Today the focus has shifted much more towards teamwork and it virtually becomes impossible to duplicate his efforts, although LeBron is trying.
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@ the bolded portion.
Wouldnt the new rules indicate an increase of freethrows for wing players, particularly players like Kobe and the such?
I dont have the numbers on me to support that, but my guess would be that it is easier to go to the line than it was in Jordan's time.

 

New rules do reward slashing guards more, however even in the old rules, Jordan was played more physically than Kobe is now, which results in more FTAs in general.

I'm not denying that Jordan scored more effectively and efficiently. I am telling you that Kobe has more weapons at his disposal.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan's 63 point game was in the playoffs against Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, and crew. Kobe's 81 came against the 27-55 Raptors in the regular season. I think he was guarded by Jalen Rose.</div>
Every player you mentioned is a big man. MJ was guarded mostly by Dennis Johnson, who was outstanding defensive player, but was often simply overpowered by Jordan. DJ was in his 30's and gave up a couple of inches to Jordan. Jordan was a 22 year old athletic guard the likes of whom were almost indefensible during those years. The other guard for BOS was Danny Ainge, who is not a great defender by any means.

Don't get me wrong - Jordan was defended better than Kobe, but the difference is nowhere near what you make it out to be.

By the way, you're conveniently leaving out that the game you're referring to went to 2 Overtimes.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I would add to my previous post that Jordan played much of his career in an era with few HSers - he had to score against adults. Few Euro players as well. That current NBA players have as hard a time against the Euros in International basketball indicates to me that current players aren't as good as the previous generation - this generation is playing in the league with a lot of Euro players while Jordan played against few. There were fewer teams, so the teams had more talent per team. There were also a lot of true centers in the game back then that he had to drive and dunk over - Ewing, Hakeem, Kareem, Moses Malone, et al.</div>
1) Inexperienced defenders don't defend the opposing team's best player. No matter who's in the league, both Kobe and Jordan always draw the opponent's best perimeter defender.
2) Every single expert you ask will tell that the reason Team USA struggles is because international competition improved incredibly over the last 10-15 years due to globalization of the game.
3) We're not discussing big men. Center do not impact a perimeter player's ability much. Yes, they do defend the paint, but players like Jordan and Kobe scored majority of their points outside the reach of these guys. When it comes to perimeter defense, I'd say that the standards of defense have increased due to better training methods and defensive schemes utilized.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The excuse about having Shaq as a teammate or that Jordan was somehow the only option on his team doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Shaq took 18 or 19 FGA/game, while Scottie Pippen took almost 17 a game. In Jordan's younger years, he had guys like Orlando Woolridge taking 16 a game (and guys like Quintin Daily taking another 14).</div>
I'm sure Shawn Marion averages 15 FGAs per game, that does not mean he's an option of offense.

Comparing the offense and amount of touches Shaq got versus what Pippen got is ridiculous. Shaq got the ball as the first option on offense virtually every SINGLE time. Jordan had the ball in his hands the majority of the time, kind of like LeBron does today.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>would add to my previous post that Jordan played much of his career in an era with few HSers - he had to score against adults</div>

lol. Realistically speaking Jordan's toughest defenders were probably dumars, maxwell, starks, etc. Kobe's best defenders are guys like Artest, Battier, Bowen, Prince, Hamilton, etc. I think you're making a mountain out of pebbles....M.J.'s top competition at his position was Drexler and Nique, Kobe's top competition is Bron and Wade........Bron + Wade > Drexler + Nique.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>There were fewer teams, so the teams had more talent per team. There were also a lot of true centers in the game back then that he had to drive and dunk over - Ewing, Hakeem, Kareem, Moses Malone, et al.</div>

Moses Malone and Kareem were near the end of the road when MJ came in. But I see your point....I give Jordan props for winning in an era with a lot big men, but lets not make it seem like he had to get past them to score all of his points, lol......Ewing was also not what I would consider a "great" defender by any means.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The excuse about having Shaq as a teammate or that Jordan was somehow the only option on his team doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Shaq took 18 or 19 FGA/game, while Scottie Pippen took almost 17 a game. In Jordan's younger years, he had guys like Orlando Woolridge taking 16 a game (and guys like Quintin Daily taking another 14).</div>

you can't look at it only from this perspective. The offense "ran" through Shaq. He might not have taken a shot, but the play was still ran through him....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not denying that Jordan scored more effectively and efficiently. I am telling you that Kobe has more weapons at his disposal.</div>

exactly....I don't think it's really even debatable

 

That FT with the eyes close is like using all-star stats. It's completely useless, but I know its a joke lol. MJ changed the game, but skill vs. skill it's tough. I don't think stats can tell the whole story, you just need to look at skill, will and the power to win and change games. I think young MJ was better young Kobe for sure. Kobe had some really got vet players around him, while MJ was put in a LeBron type position.

However, if you look at Jordan's career compared to Kobe's so far, I still think Kobe is better, and will get better. The guys not even in his prime yet and still in the hunt for more rings and awards. The argument for Jordan being a better defender, I don't see really. It's not like Kobe's man scores 35 a game on him. Defensively, I think both Kobe and Jordan are about the same.

Offensively, Jordan had way better air artistry. The things he did in the air were amazing. The guy could go around 3 guys in the air and make it look easy. With Kobe, he's a straight killer. Nothing to fancy, just go right at the rim. While Kobe does some amazing stuff in the air, Jordan is the best ever for getting up in the air and scoring. Kobe I think though is a better shooter, no matter what stats say. So, right now, I'm still unsure who really is the best between Kobe and Jordan. I'll keep thinking this over and see what others have to say and argue a bit.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The guys not even in his prime yet</div>

you don't think he's in his prime shake?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Offensively, Jordan had way better air artistry. The things he did in the air were amazing. The guy could go around 3 guys in the air and make it look easy. With Kobe, he's a straight killer. Nothing to fancy, just go right at the rim.</div>

I can kinda see what you're saying here.........

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Dream @ May 22 2008, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The guys not even in his prime yet</div>

you don't think he's in his prime shake?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Offensively, Jordan had way better air artistry. The things he did in the air were amazing. The guy could go around 3 guys in the air and make it look easy. With Kobe, he's a straight killer. Nothing to fancy, just go right at the rim.</div>

I can kinda see what you're saying here.........
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Not yet. I think next year he'll be hittin'. He has a lot of game left, and I don't see him getting worse. I'm not really on any side with Kobe or Jordan. I just think we have to factor in a lot more than stats and who he played with. You're comparing the player not his team.