^^^well I think he's at the top of his "physical" game currently, but he might become a smarter player with another year with this cast of characters, so it makes sense in that aspect.........
I think he's about at his prime, just not there yet. He's got a lot left to play, but I don't think his stats will get any better.
Kobe might just be entering his prime, now. This stretch of playoff basketball is the best stretch of basketball he's ever played ALL AROUND, imo.
LOL You'd think Kobe would be MVP every year if he were the best player in the league. Jordan wasn't considered the best in the league, but the best of all time. The debate wasn't vs. Kobe, but vs. Chamberlain. For most of his career, Shaq was the better player, or why would the offense run through him? Not only was Shaq better, but so was KG. Apparently in every season of Kobe's career until now, there was a better player (who won all the MVP awards). Kobe's only 3 NBA championships and 4 MVPs behind Jordan's accomplishments in 3 less seasons than Jordan's entire career. There isn't a statistical category that Jordan doesn't dominate when comparing the two. Like the 11 scoring championships to 2.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ May 22 2008, 07:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>LOL You'd think Kobe would be MVP every year if he were the best player in the league. Jordan wasn't considered the best in the league, but the best of all time. The debate wasn't vs. Kobe, but vs. Chamberlain. For most of his career, Shaq was the better player, or why would the offense run through him? Not only was Shaq better, but so was KG. Apparently in every season of Kobe's career until now, there was a better player (who won all the MVP awards). Kobe's only 3 NBA championships and 4 MVPs behind Jordan's accomplishments in 3 less seasons than Jordan's entire career. There isn't a statistical category that Jordan doesn't dominate when comparing the two. Like the 11 scoring championships to 2.</div> Shaq only has one MVP, I wouldn't be focusing on that figure. You've ignored many of the points people brought up, at least break down their comments.
I haven't ignored anything. It's just not much point in arguing with subjective arguments like "he's my favorite player so he is the best." Other than to point out the excuses made on his part - and now Shaq's, thank you You see, he wasn't the best player on the Lakers when Shaq was there, nor was Shaq the best in the league. In every statistical category Jordan is supreme. In awards, too. In championships. In scoring championships.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ May 22 2008, 08:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I haven't ignored anything. It's just not much point in arguing with subjective arguments like "he's my favorite player so he is the best." Other than to point out the excuses made on his part - and now Shaq's, thank you You see, he wasn't the best player on the Lakers when Shaq was there, nor was Shaq the best in the league. In every statistical category Jordan is supreme. In awards, too. In championships. In scoring championships.</div> Pretty weak Denny, you just generalized their posts when you couldn't handle it.
Ahahah at Denny. Laker fans have no say I guess because their biased towards Jordan, according to Denny.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ May 22 2008, 08:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Are you a lakers fan? I rest my case.</div> Hey genius, I think MJ's better. You're not making a very good case though. I'm just trying to alert you of that. Not breaking down the well thought out posts in this thread is soft.
To clarify further. I can see both sides of this argument. I'm by no means terribly decided on what to think yet, sort of like Master Shake.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 22 2008, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To clarify further. I can see both sides of this argument. I'm by no means terribly decided on what to think yet, sort of like Master Shake.</div> Exactly. I find it hard right now to truly see who is better. I wanna wait till Kobe retires to compare and see who's better.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ May 22 2008, 07:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>LOL You'd think Kobe would be MVP every year if he were the best player in the league. Jordan wasn't considered the best in the league, but the best of all time. The debate wasn't vs. Kobe, but vs. Chamberlain.</div> Stop being a homer. Kobe has been considered the best player in the league for years. The reason he's not MVP is because his teams haven't succeeded, the fault for which lies with the GM. Everytime there's a great player he gets compared to dominating players. It happened with Shaq and Hakeem as well (being compared to Wilt's dominance). <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>For most of his career, Shaq was the better player, or why would the offense run through him? Not only was Shaq better, but so was KG. Apparently in every season of Kobe's career until now, there was a better player (who won all the MVP awards).</div>Shaq's career started when Kobe was in middle school. Kobe got drafted out of HS in 96. He was 21 in 99 when LA started winning titles. By 2002 many people thought Bryant was the best player on the Lakers team, but Shaq's pure physical dominance, as well as the fact that offense traditionally ran through him, was what propelled LA to titles. Again, by 2002-2003, when Kobe was "of age" (and that's when he's 24-25), Kobe was considered better than KG. By the way, the bolded part is plain out hillarious. You're absolutely right, MVP award means you're better than everyone else in the league. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe's only 3 NBA championships and 4 MVPs behind Jordan's accomplishments in 3 less seasons than Jordan's entire career.</div> Both NBA titles and MVPs are only handed out to best players on great teams. When Bryant came into the league, he was very young. When he matured enough, he won NBA titles with Shaq. After Shaq left and LA made a series of really dumb moves (such as letting go of Caron for Kwame), LA's teams were absolutely horrible. There is a reason he made the trade request last summer. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>There isn't a statistical category that Jordan doesn't dominate when comparing the two. Like the 11 scoring championships to 2.</div> I'm telling you again, that when you're the absolute number one option and player on the team, you produce amazing stats. Case in point: LeBron. Besides, no offense, but when MJ got into the league the amount of truly elite SCORERS was very small. Dominique was heading towards retirement, so was Bird. Barkley was a PF and would not win consistent scoring titles. Then there was Karl the Mailman who consistently averaged a high amount of points, but nowhere near enough to dethrone a player who held the ball in his hands 90% of the time. The rest of MJ's career the only real threat to his scoring title was Malone, and late, Shaquille O'Neal. Again, two big men who as history shows, don't make great consistent scorers. Seriously dude, look at the scoring forwards and shooting guards who played during MJ's years. During 98, the only other SG in top5 of scoring was Mitch Richmond, averaging a paltry 22 ppg. In 97, it was Glen Rice and Richmond In 96 no SF or SG made the scoring list In 95 there was Jamal Mashburn at 24ppg 94 had no SFs or SGs neither did 93 I can go on. Jordan was an awesome scorer, but he also played during the days of the giants. There weren't many high quality SGs and SFs out there. Kobe has to battle it out with LeBrons, Wades, McGradys, Iversons, Anthonys and the like -- TRUE scoring guards just like himself. As history showed, a small guy has a much better chance of having high scoring averages than a big guy. The only consistent exception to this rule was Chamberlain, and maybe Shaq. I still think Jordan is better than Bryant. But Bryant is just coming into his prime, both in skill, physical preparation (he was too skinny during his early days) , mental toughness and being a team player. He already developed a deadly perimeter game that took Jordan until his 30's to develop. Bryant plays with his head a lot more than Jordan did until his later years - and I do not mean that Jordan was stupid. I mean that Jordan mostly had two stages of play. He was ultra athletic during younger years and a deadly mid-range/pump fake shooter during the later years. Bryant is BOTH in his prime. If he continues to work on his body and mentality like Jordan did, Bryant's ceiling is higher than Jordan, skill wise.
You use the word "considered" a lot, which is exactly my point about being subjective. Stop being a homer yourself Jordan outright won 5 MVP awards with the likes of Hakeem and Isaiah and Magic and Bird and Barkley and Wilkins as his competition. It wasn't just "consideration" about whether he was the MVP. You did the same thing with the defensive measures. Look at the awards, who won DPOY and 1st team all-defense all those times. Excuse it away because it doesn't fit your considered view, so be it, I guess. You pointed to Jordan getting more FTA, but the data looks like Kobe gets to the line more often. You pointed to the extra FGA Jordan got, but that's an indication PJax and his other coaches wanted him to shoot. Why not? He shot near 50%, why would you want anyone else taking those shots? I do think Iverson and LeBron are among the very best to have played, but I also think it is ignorant to think that the likes of Wilkins, Bird, Bernard King, Adrian Dantley, Mark Agguire, Sid Moncrief, Dr. J, George Gervin, Jamal Wilkes, James Worthy, Michael Cooper, Rolando Blackman, Ricky Pierce, Walter Davis, and so on, weren't SG/SF types who were better than the guys on your list.
I'm not convinced Kobe is better than Oscar yet so I'm not willing to entertain the MJ conversation in terms of overall package. In terms of offensive refinement, I do give Kobe an edge over MJ. However that is just natural progression as Kobe has the benefit of being able to study everything MJ did. I'll rephrase it as Kobe can score in more ways than MJ, but I do not believe him to be a more dominating scorer than MJ.
bottom line... Kobe has 10 years to do whatever... When he retires then thats when we should hold the debate.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ May 22 2008, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You use the word "considered" a lot, which is exactly my point about being subjective. Stop being a homer yourself </div> I can't be a homer since I am honestly impartial to both players. I just didn't agree with the ways you used to show that Jordan was a better player. If I am being a homer, please show it to me. I assure you I'm not trying to be one. I love both players equally and think they're both excellent, but different players. As I said, I also think that Jordan's better. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan outright won 5 MVP awards with the likes of Hakeem and Isaiah and Magic and Bird and Barkley and Wilkins as his competition. It wasn't just "consideration" about whether he was the MVP.</div>Right, but MVPs are a product of winning teams. Look at it: Bryant became a regular player for LA in 2001, lost Shaq in 04 and afterwards became the #1 option on his team. He posted some amazing seasons, including the 35 ppg one, which trails only Jordan's 37.1 ppg season which was 20 years ago. Are you saying he was less deserving of an MVP than Jordan? No - his team sucked because management was stupid.. in other words, "hi kwame brown". You mentioned great players that Jordan competed with for MVPs. Look at what Kobe has to deal with. Also, think about how MVP has been handed out recently. A lot of times it went to the best player on the "most surprising" team in the league. Examples of this are Nash's trophies and Dirk's MVP. Or the fact that Chris Paul was 2nd in voting this year. MVP is often handed out to the surprising player/team. It's not quite the same as it was during 80s and 90s. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You did the same thing with the defensive measures. Look at the awards, who won DPOY and 1st team all-defense all those times. Excuse it away because it doesn't fit your considered view, so be it, I guess.</div> How is it excusing it away? What I posted were common opinions of many "experts" on the NBA. Both players are a little overrated defensively. However, if you bring up DPOY and 1st team all-defense, sure, let's look at it. Jordan made 1st team 9 times. Bryant made 1st team 6 times and 2nd team twice. When Jordan made his last one, he was 35. Kobe is currently 29 (almost 30). When Jordan made his 1st All-Defense team, he was 25 years old. When Kobe made his 1st, he was 22 years old. Kobe already has almost as many All-Defensive teams as Jordan did, and he is more than 5 years younger (Feb 73 vs. Aug 78). The difference between them, currently, is DPOY award, which I personally don't have much respect for, because when people like Camby, who give up the post to chase weak side blocks, tarnish the award's image. Want to show me what you were talking about? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You pointed to Jordan getting more FTA, but the data looks like Kobe gets to the line more often. You pointed to the extra FGA Jordan got, but that's an indication PJax and his other coaches wanted him to shoot. Why not? He shot near 50%, why would you want anyone else taking those shots?</div> Bryant shot 7.7 FTA while MJ shot 8.2, which includes his duds of 4.0 and 5.6 in Washington - when he was a bit too old. Hell, just looking at their FTAs during prime years gives you a good impression. For example, MJ shot 11.9 in 87, while Kobe's highest was 10.2 in 06 - when he was in the "I am the offense" mentality. I have no problems with Jordan shooting. I brought up the number not to tarnish MJ, but to say that Kobe has a lower PPG average for the career because he also shot 4 shots less per game. If you equalize their shot attempts, their scoring averages are extremely similar. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I do think Iverson and LeBron are among the very best to have played, but I also think it is ignorant to think that the likes of Wilkins, Bird, Bernard King, Adrian Dantley, Mark Agguire, Sid Moncrief, Dr. J, George Gervin, Jamal Wilkes, James Worthy, Michael Cooper, Rolando Blackman, Ricky Pierce, Walter Davis, and so on, weren't SG/SF types who were better than the guys on your list.</div> You may have misunderstood me. My list contained shooting guards or small forwards who were a constant threat to win a scoring title. On your list, Wilkins and Bird were slowing down, both were also Power Forwards. Bernard King was a good scorer, but inconsistent. He had 2 seasons of 25ppg or more. For the career he's a 22 ppg man. Dantley was severely slowing down when MJ entered the league. During the years that MJ played, Dantley's highest scoring average was 21ppg. Mark Aguirre is a career 20ppg scorer, scoring 25 in Jordan's first 2 years in the league, after which he severely trailed off. Moncrief was a 10 ppg scorer during Jordan years. Dr. J played during first 2 years of the Jordan era, scoring less than 20 ppg. Iceman didn't play at the same time as Jordan. Wilkes didn't play at the same time as Jordan. Michael Cooper wasn't a scorer, he was an excellent defender. He's a 10 ppg for the career, even during his prime. Rolando Blackman is not an elite scorer. He's a 20 ppg man. Ricky Pierce has 4 seasons of more than 20 ppg, highest of which is 23.0 ppg. Walter Davis' highest average during Jordan years was 23.6 ppg, after which he got lucky if he scored over 15. I kid you not. When Jordan played, the amount of consistent scorers from the wing position was minuscule.
