<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ May 25 2008, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ May 25 2008, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrandKenyon6 @ May 25 2008, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ May 22 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>"Kobe can do things Michael never could." I see something like that and have to shake my head. I admit I'm a biased Bulls fan, but I also happen to like the Lakers and Kobe, too. Kobe's a 22PPG career playoff scorer. Jordan averaged 33.4PPG for his career in the playoffs. Jordan put up 32.4 PPG in 21 playoff games at the age of 34. Heck, Jordan was a top 15 player in the NBA with the Wizards at the age of 40. Kobe still can't do what Jordan could do as a rookie and 2nd year player. Look at what Jordan singlehandedly did to the Celtics in the playoffs - 63 points against triple teams, often scoring against all 5 Celtics trying to defend him on a single play. Jordan's game evolved as he grew as a player. Kobe looks like the same player he's been for years. Time will tell if Kobe can adjust and play at a high level well into his 30s. Jordan turned himself into an effective power forward late in his career, scoring from the post with his back to the basket on play after play. Just when you thought you saw it all, he'd go nail 6 straight 3 pointers. Jordan won 5 MVPs, 6 NBA titles, and led his team to near back-to-back 70 win seasons. Jordan is 3rd lifetime in total points scored, Kobe hasn't broken the top 20 yet. Kobe's 81 points in a game is an outstanding achievement. He scored 50 points in a game 23 times in his career. Jordan only scored 69 as his best and 50 points over 30 times. Kobe might catch him on that score. Kobe's not done yet, that's for sure. The Lakers still have to prove they can win a championship with this current roster, let alone win 3 more to match Jordan's totals. Kobe's career stats: 25 PPG, 4.1 RPG, 4.6 APG Jordan's career stats: 30.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.3 APG</div> The only thing that is silly is this post. There are many things that Kobe does much better than Jordan ever did. We tend to reminisce on players and remember them as better than they actually were. Jordan is arguably the GOAT, but Kobe is a much better jump shooter than Jordan was and Kobe has infinitely more range than Jordan did. In fact, Jordan was a very poor long range shooter. If I remember correctly, the only years he shot the long ball well was when the 3 point line was shortened. Also, to state that Jordan was a top 15 player with the Wizards is completely untrue. He was never close to that in his years with the Wizards. In fact, his selection to the All-Star team in 2003 was extremely debatable. </div> Jordan was a phenominal outside shooter throughout his career. You don't shoot ~50% all on dunks. Few teams, if any, really emphasized 3pt shooting; so what if he didn't take many or shoot a super high %? In 1995-96, he did hit over 40% on over 250 attempts. You think his 23+ PPG as a wizard made him not a top 15 player? Or the following season, he only averaged 19.7 so I challenge you to find 15 players who were better. </div> Heh, I apologize for not following this post before... But saying that Jordan was a phenomenal outside shooter is a joke. Jordan was a phenomenal mid-range shooter and jump shooter, but he was at best an average long range shooter over his career. Look at the amount of threes he took and the percentage at which he made them. He became a MUCH better long range shooter in his thirties than he was during most of his career, because he was REALLY working on it. Over the course of his career, he had 0.5 3FGM / 1.7 3FGA for the .327 clip. Those are NOT the stats of a "phenomenal" long range shooter as you claim. If there was one knock on Jordan, it's that he was extremely streaky from the long range. Are you judging Top 15 in skill/performance or in PPG? I mean.. Kevin Martin and Richard Jefferson have made top 15 ppg leaders... and they'll barely crack top 50. Jordan wasn't a Top 15 player in his 40's. He was the main cog on a team that didn't make the playoffs. I loved watching him and seeing what he could do at 39 and 40 (those consecutive 50 point games vs. New Jersey and someone else near Christmas time were a joy to watch) ... but he was but a shell of what he used to be. </div> At the age of 26, and remember he missed a whole season (2nd) due to injury, he shot .376, the first time he took more than 100 in a season. Prior to that, he took roughly 1 3PA per game. Like I said, the 3pt field goal simply wasn't emphasized in those days. The league leader took only ~430 that same season, Magic was 5th in 3PA at 276. Jordan was a top 10 3pt scorer (at 245 3PA) and shooter that early in his career. As to top 15 in his 40's, I guess the scoring might be impressive enough, but the 5.7 rebounds and 5.1 assists per game to go with that scoring. My bad, he was 39 and 40 years old with the wizards. How do 5.7 and 5.1 stack up? Kobe's career #s are 5.3/4.6 and last season he put up 6.3/5.4. You're right he was a shell of what he used to be - from top 2 or 3 best player in history to 15th best in the league in a single season.
Ok.. from other people who have watched Jordan play during the 80s and 90s, who else thinks that he's a "phenomenal" long distance shooter? I've never thought so, and a few of my friends who watched him play also remember that he wasn't that good. One of them even remembered the dud Jordan posted during the 3pt shootout once. What did he score, like 6? heh. Shrug, you know, unless both of us will go through every single player during Jordan's washington seasons, we really wont come to a conclusion how good he was during that comeback. What I remember is that the offense revolved around him, and he handled the ball a lot because their pg was Tyronne Lue and someone else just as incompetent.... he also got burned on defense a lot.. so that also influenced my opinion of him. I'm not sure he was top 15, strictly from memory. But I wouldn't be surprised if he in fact was somewhere around.. this was in fact before the class of 2003, so maybe.
I'm guessing the argument would be that Jerry West wasn't a good shooter. He didn't take any 3pt shots, and he only really had a mid-range game. ;-)
The last 4 seasons the nba has had each team average approximately 1300 attempts (except this year which is 1485) and 35.8% 3FG%. Which would actually place Kobe as an average 3 point shooter this year, and a slightly below average 3 point shooter the previous 3 years. When Jordan entered the league in 84-85, the 3 point shot was not nearly as used back then. Shooting 28% on only 257 3FA per team for a whole season. That would be 3 3point shots attempted per game for each team on average. Today it is 18 3 pointers attempted per game for each team. During the season of Jordan`s first title run there were 586 3 point attempts on 32.0%.
During Jordan`s first 4 years, he shot terrible at the 3 point (17%, 17%, 18%, 13%) However he also averaged less than 1 3 point attempt per game over all those games. Even though he averaged 37 ppg and 35 ppg in the later two seasons. During his next 2 years 1988-1990, he shot below average in the first year 27.6% and above average in the second 37.6%. League average was 32.3% and 33.1%. During Jordan`s first title run the league shot (586 on 32%, 626 on 33.1%, 734 on 33.6%) Jordan shot 31%, 27%, and 35% during those years, which would place him about average. During the 3 years that they shortened the 3 point line, the league shot 35.9%, 36.7%, and 36.0%. Jordan had a short year the first of 3 years, so its an anomally, he shot 50.0%, 42.7%, and 37.4%. His Final year with the Bulls he shot 23.8%, which was quite below league average. Then during his wizards run, he shot less than 1 3 point attempt per game again, and shot 19% in the first year, and 29% in the second. The Wizards shot about 800 3 point attempts both seasons and Jordan only took around 50 attempts both years. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><u>In Summary</u> During the Regular Season: </span> Kobe except for his rookie season and the 02-03 season shoots pretty much average 3 point percentages compared to his era of competition. Jordan shot quite poorly early on, and his first year with the Wizards. He excelled compared to his competition with the 22 foot 3 point line, and shot average compared to his competition with the regular 3 point line. In terms of volume though, Kobe far exceeds Jordan, although Kobes era far exceeds Jordans era in volume as well. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">In the playoffs: </span> This is probably the only place where they look comparable in terms of volume. Jordan has shot 33.2% from 3 point with 446 shots, over 179 playoff games. Kobe has shot 32.6% from 3 point with 509 shots, over 144 playoff games.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 25 2008, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I wonder how many of Oscar's games you watched. Let's not forget that the pace of the game was 25-30% faster during Oscar's time, equivalent to double-triple overtime in today's NBA. Put it in context.</div> So, based on that, how come more people didn't averaged 30+ along with a triple-double? For argument's sake, other than Oscar, the only other player averaging double-digit assists in the 60's was Guy Rogers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 26 2008, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 25 2008, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I wonder how many of Oscar's games you watched. Let's not forget that the pace of the game was 25-30% faster during Oscar's time, equivalent to double-triple overtime in today's NBA. Put it in context.</div> So, based on that, how come more people didn't averaged 30+ along with a triple-double? For argument's sake, other than Oscar, the only other player averaging double-digit assists in the 60's was Guy Rogers. </div> No one said he wasn't a great player, but his stats are quite inflated. Jordan has more impressive numbers pace-adjusted. A triple double in triple overtime is a diluted accomplishment.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ May 26 2008, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>During Jordan`s first 4 years, he shot terrible at the 3 point (17%, 17%, 18%, 13%) However he also averaged less than 1 3 point attempt per game over all those games. Even though he averaged 37 ppg and 35 ppg in the later two seasons. During his next 2 years 1988-1990, he shot below average in the first year 27.6% and above average in the second 37.6%. League average was 32.3% and 33.1%. During Jordan`s first title run the league shot (586 on 32%, 626 on 33.1%, 734 on 33.6%) Jordan shot 31%, 27%, and 35% during those years, which would place him about average. During the 3 years that they shortened the 3 point line, the league shot 35.9%, 36.7%, and 36.0%. Jordan had a short year the first of 3 years, so its an anomally, he shot 50.0%, 42.7%, and 37.4%. His Final year with the Bulls he shot 23.8%, which was quite below league average. Then during his wizards run, he shot less than 1 3 point attempt per game again, and shot 19% in the first year, and 29% in the second. The Wizards shot about 800 3 point attempts both seasons and Jordan only took around 50 attempts both years. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><u>In Summary</u> During the Regular Season: </span> Kobe except for his rookie season and the 02-03 season shoots pretty much average 3 point percentages compared to his era of competition. Jordan shot quite poorly early on, and his first year with the Wizards. He excelled compared to his competition with the 22 foot 3 point line, and shot average compared to his competition with the regular 3 point line. In terms of volume though, Kobe far exceeds Jordan, although Kobes era far exceeds Jordans era in volume as well. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">In the playoffs: </span> This is probably the only place where they look comparable in terms of volume. Jordan has shot 33.2% from 3 point with 446 shots, over 179 playoff games. Kobe has shot 32.6% from 3 point with 509 shots, over 144 playoff games.</div> You are ignoring the fact that Kobe is top 10-20 in three point attempts (the last three years or so). Many of the other clowns averaging 36% would not be able to maintain that pace at a higher volume, making Kobe an above average three point shooter all things considererd. Plus, 33% from three point land is equivalent to 50% for any other bucket. Even the league average isn't bad when accounting for efficiency, and it stretches defenses.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 26 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 26 2008, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 25 2008, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I wonder how many of Oscar's games you watched. Let's not forget that the pace of the game was 25-30% faster during Oscar's time, equivalent to double-triple overtime in today's NBA. Put it in context.</div> So, based on that, how come more people didn't averaged 30+ along with a triple-double? For argument's sake, other than Oscar, the only other player averaging double-digit assists in the 60's was Guy Rogers. </div> No one said he wasn't a great player, but his stats are quite inflated. Jordan has more impressive numbers pace-adjusted. A triple double in triple overtime is a diluted accomplishment. </div> ...
You're hijacking the thread guys. Oscar rules. The end When West played there was no 3 pt line. I don't know why you're bringing it up :/ Look at Jordan's career 3 PT shooting: He averaged 0.5 3FGM over the course of his career. That is NOT a stat of a consistent, good long range shooter. During the shortened 3 PT line, he threw in .427 and .374 on and made 1.4 per game. Those 2 seasons are an anomaly, as he only has 2 more seasons during which he shot better than 35%. If you the remove the shortened 3 PT line seasons out of his stats, Jordan becomes a 29% 3 point shooter for his career. More than that, those are the ONLY seasons during which he's made more than a 100 in a season, which highlights his dislike for the long range bomb. Again, if you remove those 3 seasons from FGA and FGM, for the career, Jordan makes only 0.3 threes on 1.1 attempts for his career. The stats are not those of a good shooter. You're right - the 3 point shot is more important now. Because of that importance, team defense stress the shot more today than in days past (case in point: the Spurs). Look at how Jordan has done in the later years, during late 90s. If Jordan really was a "phenomenal" long distance shooter as you say, he would have thrived when the league adopted the shot more often. Instead, Jordan was never comfortable with it. In the first season after the 3 PT line was back to its normal distance, Jordan shot very poorly at 24%. During his 2nd comeback, he barely attempted a 3 point shot, which is highlighted by his average of less than 1 per game. What I'm driving at is that Jordan was never comfortable shooting threes and that he didn't have the natural range for the shot. He was in great physical shape throughout his career, and his strength allowed him to shoot and make more threes than he was comfortable with, especially after he started working on his jumper seriously. When he declined, his 3 PT shot went with him. I don't see the same scenario occurring with Kobe. Kobe looks comfortable shooting threes because they're within his range. For Jordan, they were like very long jumpers.
First off, the entire league during Jordan's time wasn't as good at shooting the 3 point shot. The league was averaging around 32% up until they shortened the 3 point line. Unlike 36% which the league averages around now. During Jordan's years before they shortened the 3 point line, he shot 27.6%, 37.6%, 31%, 27%, and 35%. Those 5 years before the shortened 3 point line, put him at 32%, which puts him at league average. Kobe is in the same situation in terms of him hitting around 35%, 36%, 37%, which is around the league's average of 36%.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ May 26 2008, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First off, the entire league during Jordan's time wasn't as good at shooting the 3 point shot. The league was averaging around 32% up until they shortened the 3 point line. Unlike 36% which the league averages around now. During Jordan's years before they shortened the 3 point line, he shot 27.6%, 37.6%, 31%, 27%, and 35%. Those 5 years before the shortened 3 point line, put him at 32%, which puts him at league average. Kobe is in the same situation in terms of him hitting around 35%, 36%, 37%, which is around the league's average of 36%.</div> You didn't address the points you ignored.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 26 2008, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 26 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 26 2008, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 25 2008, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I wonder how many of Oscar's games you watched. Let's not forget that the pace of the game was 25-30% faster during Oscar's time, equivalent to double-triple overtime in today's NBA. Put it in context.</div> So, based on that, how come more people didn't averaged 30+ along with a triple-double? For argument's sake, other than Oscar, the only other player averaging double-digit assists in the 60's was Guy Rogers. </div> No one said he wasn't a great player, but his stats are quite inflated. Jordan has more impressive numbers pace-adjusted. A triple double in triple overtime is a diluted accomplishment. </div> ... </div> "Dot dot dot" nothing. Wilt's 50 PPG season for example, experienced a 27% increase in possessions league-wide compared to Kobe's 35 PPG season. Possessions matter a great deal, that's why no one averages 20 RPG anymore, etc. We've seen Wilt's rebound rate/etc. before, it's how inflation impacts his stats that skew everything. And again, these players are great, but this is context. No one here has seen Oscar play, so if you're going to be a stat whore, know that he has some serious empirical information going against him. Kobe vs Jordan is a much more entertaining discussion as well.
We have youtube. You can't just assume no one has seen Oscar play, because there's videos all over the internet of games back then. So I don't have to be a "stat whore" to try to make a point. I've watched him play. I've watched a couple games of his, where he'd grab rebounds over big men, and quite a few highlight vids of him grabbing rebounds over guys like Wilt. And even with that "increase in possessions", Oscar was still a great scorer and an assist leader at a time when only one other guy could average double-digit assists. So who's to say he couldn't take over games, be an all-star, do it all for a team and average a triple double in 2008?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 27 2008, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>We have youtube. You can't just assume no one has seen Oscar play, because there's videos all over the internet of games back then. So I don't have to be a "stat whore" to try to make a point. I've watched him play. I've watched a couple games of his, where he'd grab rebounds over big men, and quite a few highlight vids of him grabbing rebounds over guys like Wilt. And even with that "increase in possessions", Oscar was still a great scorer and an assist leader at a time when only one other guy could average double-digit assists. So who's to say he couldn't take over games, be an all-star, do it all for a team and average a triple double in 2008?</div> Pegs I think you missed the part where I said he was great player. He would not average a triple double though, that's pretty easy to prove. 12.5 RPG at that pace doesn't hold up (20-27 becomes 13-18 as it is). There are not enough possessions to accomplish this, I can not stress this enough. A similar concept applies to PPG, APG, etc. . I wasn't referring to you specifically when speaking about stat whores (came off a little harsh there), but let's not be naive about youtube. A couple of highlight reels doesn't give the proper gist imo, since they're all positive.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ May 27 2008, 02:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 27 2008, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>We have youtube. You can't just assume no one has seen Oscar play, because there's videos all over the internet of games back then. So I don't have to be a "stat whore" to try to make a point. I've watched him play. I've watched a couple games of his, where he'd grab rebounds over big men, and quite a few highlight vids of him grabbing rebounds over guys like Wilt. And even with that "increase in possessions", Oscar was still a great scorer and an assist leader at a time when only one other guy could average double-digit assists. So who's to say he couldn't take over games, be an all-star, do it all for a team and average a triple double in 2008?</div> Pegs I think you missed the part where I said he was great player. He would not average a triple double though, that's pretty easy to prove. 11.4 RPG at that pace doesn't hold up (20-25 becomes 15-18 as it is). There are not enough possessions to accomplish this, I can not stress this enough. I wasn't referring to you specifically when speaking about stat whores (came off a little harsh there), but let's not be naive about youtube. A couple of highlight reels doesn't give the proper gist imo, since they're all positive. </div> Eh. Meaningless argument, actually (on my part). It's difficult enough trying to make an argument out of Kobe and MJ, whereas they played in two different time periods, with different circumstances, and different competition.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller)</div><div class='quotemain'><u>1962</u> (the year Wilt averaged 50 PPG and 26 RPG) - Teams attempted an average of 8,619 field goals in a total of 80 games. That's about 107.735 Shots per game. <u>2006</u> - Teams attempted an average of 6,477 field goals in a total of 82 games. That's about 78.987 shots per game. -- That's 2,142 more field goals attempted in two less games. Anyway, if we do some calculations.... 78.987/107.735 is 73.316%. If Wilt plays the SAME number of minutes in his career with an adjusted figure in Shots per game, his new RPG would be 16.782. So if he plays, let's say, 43 MPG, his RPG total would be, (.938 x 16.782) 15.741. This would be within my previous accepted range of 15-17 RPG. I was just too lazy to explain it before.</div> That was me back in August 2006. Everyone in that era is affected by pace.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You think his 23+ PPG as a wizard made him not a top 15 player? Or the following season, he only averaged 19.7 so I challenge you to find 15 players who were better.</div> MJ wasn't one of the top 15 talents at that time.......sorry......... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>he also got burned on defense a lot.. so that also influenced my opinion of him.</div> yes defensively he got abused. And here are 15 people that were better at that time........Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Tmac, Kidd,Iverson, Webber,Vince, Dirk, Pierce, Jermaine O'neal, Francis, Davis, etc......don't let the ppg fool you into thinking MJ was still a "great" player during that stretch in his career. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ok.. from other people who have watched Jordan play during the 80s and 90s, who else thinks that he's a "phenomenal" long distance shooter?</div> he wasn't. He could get hot every now and then (see finals against Portland), but for the most part he was never a great 3 point shooter. Jordan even admitted to never working that much on his 3 point game, because he felt that if he became a great long distance shooter, that he would then rely on the outside shot too much and not take it to the basket enough.............pretty smart strategy imo, but the fact remains he wasn't a great 3 point shooter, and he definitely didn't have the range of Kobe..
Let me just say the rules have changed. The way defense and offense is played. Its hard to judge two players who basically played in two different eras except for a small overlap when Jordan was already past his prime.
