NBA FINALS THREAD: Lakers vs. Celtics

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jun 17 2008, 07:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Jun 14 2008, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And back to the topic about Kobe and MJ, I still continue to claim that Kobe is the best player after MJ, even if he was to retire at this moment. I don't think he'll surpass MJ, but will come close to that level, and who knows, in a few years we'll talk about players and say he's the next Kobe. Because he'll make his name important in the history of the game.</div>


umm ever heard of Bill Russell? Wilt Chamberlain? Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Oscar Robinson? Larry Bird? Magic Johnson? Hakeem Olajuwon?

They all may beg to differ with you above statement.. as do I. That's absurd.
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Pace screws a lot of them.

Kareem, Wilt, Bird/Johnson are quite legit though, of course Kobe is empirically in their league.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe is struggling with his shot? Your point? He's playing with a torn tendon and some broken bones in his shooting hand. He can't control the impact that Odom and Gasol have on the game. He had a stellar game three, a good game 2, and overall a good series.

With Kendrick Perkins out most likely, I expect Gasol to have another monster game.</div>

that torn tendon wasn't bothering him the rest of the playoffs, lol....and "good" won't be "good" enough to win this series, Kobe has to be great and I think everyone here knows this.........


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>People always dog Kobe. What makes this series any different?

KG has also played pretty poorly during this series. You don't see as many people dogging him, though.

People just have a natural hatred for Kobe, and are naturally on KG's nuts.

Also, I know this is vaguely irrelevant and stupid, but I find it funny that ESPN is all over Paul Peirce...even though Boston lost. Yeah. Don't pay any attention to Odom or Gasol, they didn't do anything special. Nope. Heh</div>

There are discussions, articles, and threads all across the web of KG choking....I've called KG a choker plenty of times on this board and in this thread, lol. The problem is with a lot of kobe fans is that you guys take "criticism" as "hatred." Like I said no one proved any of the points I made as being false....therefore they are "fair" criticisms.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He was awful in game 2? Based on what exactly? Put the pipe down, what a joke.</div>

he was....he didn't get anything going until it was too late and boston was relaxing............

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Dream @ Jun 17 2008, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He was awful in game 2? Based on what exactly? Put the pipe down, what a joke.</div>

he was....he didn't get anything going until it was too late and boston was relaxing............
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Soft. How does this make it awful?

It being too late is not his problem, this was one of his best games of the season, it's not his problem he doesn't have Pippen.

 

one of his best of the season??????....nah.................


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>it's not his problem he doesn't have Pippen</div>

this isn't about MJ Lite not having Pippen....if the lakers lose the series I won't put all the blame on Kobe, BUT he does need to take some of the blame, because he is a part of the team, and thus far he's been inconsistent and has struggled in these finals............

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Dream @ Jun 17 2008, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>one of his best of the season“““....nah.................


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>it's not his problem he doesn't have Pippen</div>

this isn't about MJ Lite not having Pippen....if the lakers lose the series I won't put all the blame on Kobe, BUT he does need to take some of the blame, because he is a part of the team, and thus far he's been inconsistent and has struggled in these finals............
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Yah....

You can put SOME of the blame on Kobe, saying he was "awful" in game 2 is another subject.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 17 2008, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 17 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jun 17 2008, 07:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Jun 14 2008, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And back to the topic about Kobe and MJ, I still continue to claim that Kobe is the best player after MJ, even if he was to retire at this moment. I don't think he'll surpass MJ, but will come close to that level, and who knows, in a few years we'll talk about players and say he's the next Kobe. Because he'll make his name important in the history of the game.</div>


umm ever heard of Bill Russell? Wilt Chamberlain? Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Oscar Robinson? Larry Bird? Magic Johnson? Hakeem Olajuwon?

They all may beg to differ with you above statement.. as do I. That's absurd.
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Pace screws a lot of them.

Kareem, Wilt, Bird/Johnson are quite legit though, of course Kobe is empirically in their league.
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You talk about pace, but I don't see anything of real substance from you to support your claim.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/1997.html
1996-97 Utah Jazz Pace Factor = 90.0,
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1997.html
1996-97 Chicago Bulls Pace Factor = 90.0
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2008.html
2007-08 LA Lakers Pace Factor = 95.6


Can you say, "whoops!" ?
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You've got to be joking. Wilt and Bill lived off it. Keep trying to pull my cape on this one, I've got Durvasa posts to screw you. :]

Further, I don't remember anything about dissing Utah/Jordan/modern-players, I was only talking about the specific players CF mentioned.

 

Like I said before...Wilt played against Kareem, Kareem played against Hakeem, Hakeem played against Shaq, Shaq against Yao.................I think the "pace" argument is weak I think level of competition is a better one myself, but with that being said all these great players would be great no matter their era.........but this thread isn't even about this, it's about these NBA Finals.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Dream @ Jun 17 2008, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Like I said before...Wilt played against Kareem, Kareem played against Hakeem, Hakeem played against Shaq, Shaq against Yao.................I think the "pace" argument is weak I think level of competition is a better one myself, but with that being said all these great players would be great no matter their era.........but this thread isn't even about this, it's about these NBA Finals.</div>

No it isn't weak. Kobe can keep up with a faster pace, not every player struggles like Shaq. It matters a great deal.

 

like I said this thread is about the finals if you want me to debunk your pace theory (which I can and will do, lol) then we can argue it out in another thread, cause God knows I love debating, lol...........

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>like I said this thread is about the finals if you want me to debunk your pace theory(which I can and will do, lol) then we can argue it out in another thread</div>

No you never will. You don't have it in you, and when you think you've stumbled across something, like Shaq, you'll see I agree with you.

 

Good luck tonight guys. Make it a good game.


I personally think the series will end with this game. But what do I know? I'm a Celtics fan. lol

 

I'm not wishing anybody luck, the Lakers and their fans can cry about not winning a championship for 5 years. Let them wait another.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 17 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laker_fan @ Jun 17 2008, 05:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 16 2008, 10:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really should be rooting for the Celtics, considering my Law Practice is Boston Legal.

BTW, Jordan NEVER had a bad finals game.</div>

Firstly, FG% is one of the most important things. If Jordan scored 50 points on 20% shooting, according to you, it's a good game? Theres no point in replying to your posts if thats what you believe.

Secondly, when was the last time Jordan played a finals series against 3 futures Hall of Famers, with him being the only futures Hall of Famer on his team? Odom and Gasol aren't future Hall of Famer's. Gasol is also playing out of position, hence why he'e being exposed as a pussy.

Thirdly, what you people don't understand is that Kobe takes up so much attention that the other players on the team have easier looks. As he said himself, every time he touches the ball, he see's four players infront of him. It's the same way that Garnett takes up alot of attention in the post so he kicks it out to the shooters, so players like House actually look like brilliant players.
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1. Jordan was routinely double teamed and triple teamed. Same deal applies to him getting his team easier looks.
2. As I pointed out, in the game he shot .263, the team shot .375 while Utah shot .425 and the Bulls won by 12. You say FG% is one of the most important things, yet I say "won by 12" is the only thing.
3. The teams Jordan's Bulls defeated included Stockton, Malone, Kemp, Payton, Barkley, KJ, Drexler, Worthy, Magic
4. I don't think the Celtics have 3x HOFers. 1 likely (Garnett), 1 borderline (Pierce), 1 doubtful (Allen). They have 3 of the best players in the league today.
5. I'm not dissing Kobe in the least. He is what he is, and he REALLY needs to step up for the Lakers to pull off this upset that I am rooting for.
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You mentioned that Jordan never had a bad finals game, why are you now talking about games that weren't in the finals?

1. Jordan had a more consistent supporting cast. If you look at the stats, Kobe is still averaging 26/5/6.
2. He still shot a lower percentage while taking more shots than any other player on the team. If you think FG% is worth nothing and winning is the thing that defines the greatness of the player, I don't understand why people are knocking Kobe seeing as the series isn't over yet.
3. Which of these players did he play in the finals? Also which had 3 HOF'ers. He still had Pippen, Rodman etc..
4. I think they'll all be HOF'ers for their consistency and longevity.
5. He does need to take his game to a higher level as he can't rely on his inconsistent teammates to produce.

 

You can't really compare them.

2 different teams, and 2 different eras of basketball. Players were tougher back then, players are more athletic and stronger today.
If MJ played today, the game wouldn't be AS easy for him as back in the day.

Also, MJ never played a championship team (other than the Lakers) that were as talented than this Boston Three Party.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 17 2008, 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not wishing anybody luck, the Lakers and their fans can cry about not winning a championship for 5 years. Let them wait another.</div>

IMO, this is the correct attitude (of course I don't feel I have to call out any fans in particular).

Screw the Celtics too :]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 17 2008, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jun 17 2008, 10:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ice @ Jun 17 2008, 09:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>KG has also played pretty poorly during this series. You don't see as many people dogging him, though.

People just have a natural hatred for Kobe, and are naturally on KG's nuts.</div>
I don't know about everyone, but I've been the first one to say KG has been MIA in the NBA finals. Granted, this is his first appearence and Kobe already has 3 rings - but he's played soft as hell. He's too good to be taking jumpers over Gasol when he can attack the basket and either score or go to the line every play.

And if they do - I would say KG finally deserves this, but he hasn't really shown up this entire series. Pierce and Allen are the ones taking care business.

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I've been saying since before KG was with the Celtics. He's the ultimate Robin. He does a lot of things really great, but he's no Batman. Batman takes over in crunch time and gets the bucket or to the line when his team needs him to do this and he consistently does this. That's why KG with Paul is working. KG can get the boards, score points within the flow of the game, make good passes to open teamates, but he needs a guy like Pierce who is going to stop a 10-0 run or take the shot in the 4th quarter in a 1 point game. Ray Allen can do this as well.

Again it comes to down to KG not having played in enough pressure games, just like MOST of the HS kids who went to the NBA.
KG, T-Mac, Jermaine O'Neal are all very good players, but these guys have not achieve much as leaders on their teams.
Kobe was fortunate enough to land on a Lakers team that had A: Shaq, B: Veterans who had won C: Phil Jackson who allowed him to take big shots and fail early in his career. And yet Kobe is still missing an intangible that is costing the Lakers the series. This guy has disappeared at times when he was needed to stop the bleeding.
The only HS'er who appears to rising above that is LeBron who lead a sad-sack team to the finals, is still improving and is learning when to take over and when to playing within the team. He's also started playing hard on both ends of the floor too. Still it's too early to tell if LeBron will find continued success in the playoffs.
Look at the recent winners of the NBA title. Tim Duncan and the Spurs, Timmy had 4 years of college and exposure to tight important games. Shaq had 1 year of college and played in tight games and he's also a freak of nature, an unstoppable force. Dwayne Wade.. say what you want the refs and all those fouls, he carried Marquette to the Final Four and carried the Heat to a title. Note that there's a reoccuring theme here.
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Kobe has not struggled in the fourth quarter of these games, further he's always been a big time player. He doesn't get to play against garbage like Pierce.
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Then why is Kobe struggling so much to get his points. Besides his 15 points in the 1st Quarter of game 5, he's had to work very hard and visit the FT line a LOT to get his points. He's not having a dominating series, he's have a good series. If he was as good as the players I mentioned the Lakers would be winning this series as he does have 2 all-stars playing with him in Gasol and Odom.
Kobe can't get it done and it will be his fault when they lose to the Celtics, the Lakers are HIS team. Take the credit, take the Blame if you're the man on the team.