<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 17 2008, 02:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laker_fan @ Jun 17 2008, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 17 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laker_fan @ Jun 17 2008, 05:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 16 2008, 10:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really should be rooting for the Celtics, considering my Law Practice is Boston Legal. BTW, Jordan NEVER had a bad finals game.</div> Firstly, FG% is one of the most important things. If Jordan scored 50 points on 20% shooting, according to you, it's a good game? Theres no point in replying to your posts if thats what you believe. Secondly, when was the last time Jordan played a finals series against 3 futures Hall of Famers, with him being the only futures Hall of Famer on his team? Odom and Gasol aren't future Hall of Famer's. Gasol is also playing out of position, hence why he'e being exposed as a pussy. Thirdly, what you people don't understand is that Kobe takes up so much attention that the other players on the team have easier looks. As he said himself, every time he touches the ball, he see's four players infront of him. It's the same way that Garnett takes up alot of attention in the post so he kicks it out to the shooters, so players like House actually look like brilliant players. </div> 1. Jordan was routinely double teamed and triple teamed. Same deal applies to him getting his team easier looks. 2. As I pointed out, in the game he shot .263, the team shot .375 while Utah shot .425 and the Bulls won by 12. You say FG% is one of the most important things, yet I say "won by 12" is the only thing. 3. The teams Jordan's Bulls defeated included Stockton, Malone, Kemp, Payton, Barkley, KJ, Drexler, Worthy, Magic 4. I don't think the Celtics have 3x HOFers. 1 likely (Garnett), 1 borderline (Pierce), 1 doubtful (Allen). They have 3 of the best players in the league today. 5. I'm not dissing Kobe in the least. He is what he is, and he REALLY needs to step up for the Lakers to pull off this upset that I am rooting for. </div> You mentioned that Jordan never had a bad finals game, why are you now talking about games that weren't in the finals? 1. Jordan had a more consistent supporting cast. If you look at the stats, Kobe is still averaging 26/5/6. 2. He still shot a lower percentage while taking more shots than any other player on the team. If you think FG% is worth nothing and winning is the thing that defines the greatness of the player, I don't understand why people are knocking Kobe seeing as the series isn't over yet. 3. Which of these players did he play in the finals? Also which had 3 HOF'ers. He still had Pippen, Rodman etc.. 4. I think they'll all be HOF'ers for their consistency and longevity. 5. He does need to take his game to a higher level as he can't rely on his inconsistent teammates to produce. </div> 1. Scottie "I have a migrane" Pippen was reliable, I guess. I don't think I ever heard Rodman called "reliable" before. That's a new one. 2. I think scoring more points than your opponent is how you win basketball games. It's not about who has the higher FG%. As I pointed out. Again, to try and pick apart a 22 pt / 9 reb / 7 assist game based on one stat (FG%) is absurd. It's like saying "Kobe's 81 point game sucked because he fouled someone 3 times." 3. All those players he played against in the finals. 4. There are a lot of players with longevity and consistency who aren't in the HOF. Only Garnett has been a top 5 player in the league any time in his career (and many times). 5. Who says I'm knocking Kobe? I just don't at all think he's in the same tier of players as Jordan. You point out his 26/5/6 stats, and I remember Jordan taking his game up two levels for the finals. Kobe's playoffs averages are 30.6/5.8/5.8 - you tell me if that's taking his game up a notch or what? Jordan scored 33, 37, 24, 34, 28, and 45 points in his final championship series at the age of 34. He would not be denied, and that is probably the biggest difference between the two players of all. </div> 1. Pippen was reliable, end of story. Rodman was a consistent defensive presence. Not to mention other players like Kukoc etc... 2. Nobody is mentioning fouls. Saying that Jordan had a great game because he scored 30 points on 20% shooting is stupid. I could go out there and consistently score 30 points on 20% shooting. 3. Kobe has also played against great players in the finals and produced. 4. I believe Allen will go in the HOF for his shooting and Pierce is arguably the best offensive Celtic of all time. 5. We'll see what happens when it's all said and done. Wait until the series is over before judging Kobe. After all, as you said, it's all about wins and losses.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laker_fan @ Jun 17 2008, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1. Pippen was reliable, end of story. Rodman was a consistent defensive presence. Not to mention other players like Kukoc etc... 2. Nobody is mentioning fouls. Saying that Jordan had a great game because he scored 30 points on 20% shooting is stupid. I could go out there and consistently score 30 points on 20% shooting. 3. Kobe has also played against great players in the finals and produced. 4. I believe Allen will go in the HOF for his shooting and Pierce is arguably the best offensive Celtic of all time. 5. We'll see what happens when it's all said and done. Wait until the series is over before judging Kobe. After all, as you said, it's all about wins and losses.</div> Rodman wasn't an all-star (with the bulls), right? Kukoc wasn't either. You have the argument twisted. Jordan never had a bad game. 30 points on 20% shooting (on 10 fewer shots than he normally took) is not a bad game when you consider he had 9 rebounds, 7 assists, shot 12 free throws, and played defense. Do tell who the HOFers that Kobe's faced. Allen will NOT go into the HOF. The HOF is so picky, it took Dominique Willkins until last year to get in, and he was a top 3 player in the league (like Kobe). Like I said, KJ isn't in. If Kobe has another gear, let's see it, because WE need it (I am rooting for the Lakers).
Odom isn't an all-star and Gasol is playing out of position. Jordan did have bad games. Oh, and you can't compare Garnett to Barkley and Pierce to Chambers. There simply is no comparison. It's kind of hard for Kobe to play against future HOF'ers in the finals because most of them are loaded in the West. He has played against(and been successful against) Duncan, Garnett, Iverson, Kidd, Pippen, Miller along with those battles against the Kings. Not to mention that he's played against most of these players in their peak. Anyway, we can go at this all day, the important thing is that we both want the Lakers to beat the Celtics. Maybe Kobe will show you that he is just as good, if not better than Jordan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jun 17 2008, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 17 2008, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jun 17 2008, 10:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ice @ Jun 17 2008, 09:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>KG has also played pretty poorly during this series. You don't see as many people dogging him, though. People just have a natural hatred for Kobe, and are naturally on KG's nuts.</div> I don't know about everyone, but I've been the first one to say KG has been MIA in the NBA finals. Granted, this is his first appearence and Kobe already has 3 rings - but he's played soft as hell. He's too good to be taking jumpers over Gasol when he can attack the basket and either score or go to the line every play. And if they do - I would say KG finally deserves this, but he hasn't really shown up this entire series. Pierce and Allen are the ones taking care business. </div> I've been saying since before KG was with the Celtics. He's the ultimate Robin. He does a lot of things really great, but he's no Batman. Batman takes over in crunch time and gets the bucket or to the line when his team needs him to do this and he consistently does this. That's why KG with Paul is working. KG can get the boards, score points within the flow of the game, make good passes to open teamates, but he needs a guy like Pierce who is going to stop a 10-0 run or take the shot in the 4th quarter in a 1 point game. Ray Allen can do this as well. Again it comes to down to KG not having played in enough pressure games, just like MOST of the HS kids who went to the NBA. KG, T-Mac, Jermaine O'Neal are all very good players, but these guys have not achieve much as leaders on their teams. Kobe was fortunate enough to land on a Lakers team that had A: Shaq, B: Veterans who had won C: Phil Jackson who allowed him to take big shots and fail early in his career. And yet Kobe is still missing an intangible that is costing the Lakers the series. This guy has disappeared at times when he was needed to stop the bleeding. The only HS'er who appears to rising above that is LeBron who lead a sad-sack team to the finals, is still improving and is learning when to take over and when to playing within the team. He's also started playing hard on both ends of the floor too. Still it's too early to tell if LeBron will find continued success in the playoffs. Look at the recent winners of the NBA title. Tim Duncan and the Spurs, Timmy had 4 years of college and exposure to tight important games. Shaq had 1 year of college and played in tight games and he's also a freak of nature, an unstoppable force. Dwayne Wade.. say what you want the refs and all those fouls, he carried Marquette to the Final Four and carried the Heat to a title. Note that there's a reoccuring theme here. </div> Kobe has not struggled in the fourth quarter of these games, further he's always been a big time player. He doesn't get to play against garbage like Pierce. </div> Then why is Kobe struggling so much to get his points. Besides his 15 points in the 1st Quarter of game 5, he's had to work very hard and visit the FT line a LOT to get his points. He's not having a dominating series, he's have a good series. If he was as good as the players I mentioned the Lakers would be winning this series as he does have 2 all-stars playing with him in Gasol and Odom. Kobe can't get it done and it will be his fault when they lose to the Celtics, the Lakers are HIS team. Take the credit, take the Blame if you're the man on the team. </div> When was Odom an All-Star? Lol man you're killing me. Pau has played worse throughout the entire playoffs. Take responsibility for what? The series isn't over, he didn't choke the huge lead either. Even in Game 5 he didn't "struggle" in the fourth, he had a solid 7 points and facilitated/killed-time at the end as well as had clutch defense.
7 points.. well that's nice, but if he's so darn great, well it's just nice, not great. He did make a fine play on the steal, but every player catches a break every now and then
Yeah he could definitely improve, no argument there. Lamar and Pau have tailed off though (not in Game 5, hope it continues).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laker_fan @ Jun 17 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Odom isn't an all-star and Gasol is playing out of position. Jordan did have bad games. Oh, and you can't compare Garnett to Barkley and Pierce to Chambers. There simply is no comparison. It's kind of hard for Kobe to play against future HOF'ers in the finals because most of them are loaded in the West. He has played against(and been successful against) Duncan, Garnett, Iverson, Kidd, Pippen, Miller along with those battles against the Kings. Not to mention that he's played against most of these players in their peak. Anyway, we can go at this all day, the important thing is that we both want the Lakers to beat the Celtics. Maybe Kobe will show you that he is just as good, if not better than Jordan.</div> You CAN compare Garnett to Barkley. What's difficult to see is if Garnett is actually the better of the two, since he isn't. Garnett's best scoring seasons were 24.2, 23.0, 22.9, 22.4, 22.2, 22.0 Barkley's best were 28.3, 27.6, 25.8, 25.6, 25.2, 23.1 Garnett's best rebounding seasons were 13.9, 13.5, 13.4, 12.8, 12.7 Barkley's were 14.6, 13.5, 12.8, 12.5, 12.2 (Barkley failed to average 10+ once in his career, Garnett's failed to do so 4 times) Barkley was 6'4" (listed at 6'6"), Garnett 6'11" Realize that Garnett will have to continue putting up 20/12/4 kinds of numbers for a few more years to match Barkley's career. KJ's numbers were godly (like 20+ PPG / 10+ APG, RARE for a guard) when he wasn't injured. Chambers put up 27/6/2 at the same age as Pierce is now. Adrian Dantley is not in the HOF. If he can't get in, Pierce is going to have serious trouble making it. Dantley's career numbers are 24.3/5.7/3, and his best seasons were several at over 30PPG with 6 RPG and 4 or 5 APG. I can think of all kinds of guards who are better than Allen who aren't in the HOF. Like Paul Westphal. Or guys I peg as about the same, like Fred Brown or Glen Rice. An interesting exercise is to pick the top 10, say, Lakers of all time. 1. Wilt 2. West - why do you think he's the logo? 3. Magic - 5 rings, could have starred at 4 or all 5 positions he could have played 4. Baylor - invented the moves that Kobe, Jordan, Dr. J, and other flashy offensive players use 5. Kareem - considered the best player in the game for many seasons 6. Shaq - 3 rings with the Lakers, 1 with Miami, contended other times 7. Kobe - 3 rings with Shaq 8. Worthy - 5 rings, consummate winner 9. Goodrich - one of the best pure scorers ever, one of the worst defenders, too 10. Wilkes - won a championship with Golden State, too. (Jordan would be between West and Wilt)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 17 2008, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laker_fan @ Jun 17 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Odom isn't an all-star and Gasol is playing out of position. Jordan did have bad games. Oh, and you can't compare Garnett to Barkley and Pierce to Chambers. There simply is no comparison. It's kind of hard for Kobe to play against future HOF'ers in the finals because most of them are loaded in the West. He has played against(and been successful against) Duncan, Garnett, Iverson, Kidd, Pippen, Miller along with those battles against the Kings. Not to mention that he's played against most of these players in their peak. Anyway, we can go at this all day, the important thing is that we both want the Lakers to beat the Celtics. Maybe Kobe will show you that he is just as good, if not better than Jordan.</div> You CAN compare Garnett to Barkley. What's difficult to see is if Garnett is actually the better of the two, since he isn't. Garnett's best scoring seasons were 24.2, 23.0, 22.9, 22.4, 22.2, 22.0 Barkley's best were 28.3, 27.6, 25.8, 25.6, 25.2, 23.1 Garnett's best rebounding seasons were 13.9, 13.5, 13.4, 12.8, 12.7 Barkley's were 14.6, 13.5, 12.8, 12.5, 12.2 (Barkley failed to average 10+ once in his career, Garnett's failed to do so 4 times) Barkley was 6'4" (listed at 6'6"), Garnett 6'11" Realize that Garnett will have to continue putting up 20/12/4 kinds of numbers for a few more years to match Barkley's career. KJ's numbers were godly (like 20+ PPG / 10+ APG, RARE for a guard) when he wasn't injured. Chambers put up 27/6/2 at the same age as Pierce is now. Adrian Dantley is not in the HOF. If he can't get in, Pierce is going to have serious trouble making it. Dantley's career numbers are 24.3/5.7/3, and his best seasons were several at over 30PPG with 6 RPG and 4 or 5 APG. I can think of all kinds of guards who are better than Allen who aren't in the HOF. Like Paul Westphal. Or guys I peg as about the same, like Fred Brown or Glen Rice. An interesting exercise is to pick the top 10, say, Lakers of all time. 1. Wilt 2. West - why do you think he's the logo? 3. Magic - 5 rings, could have starred at 4 or all 5 positions he could have played 4. Baylor - invented the moves that Kobe, Jordan, Dr. J, and other flashy offensive players use 5. Kareem - considered the best player in the game for many seasons 6. Shaq - 3 rings with the Lakers, 1 with Miami, contended other times 7. Kobe - 3 rings with Shaq 8. Worthy - 5 rings, consummate winner 9. Goodrich - one of the best pure scorers ever, one of the worst defenders, too 10. Wilkes - won a championship with Golden State, too. (Jordan would be between West and Wilt) </div> West over Magic/Kareem? No chance. I don't like where Baylor is either. I won't even go into the Kobe thing, not worth the effort. Tired of talking about that.
Mitch Kupchack (the player) > Luke Walton Kurt Rambis > Mbenga Jack Nicholson > Will Smith Pat Riley's hair > Rick Fox's hair Chick Hearns > whatever nameless stiff they have calling laker games now there..............the debate is settled.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 17 2008, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jerry West played in the NBA finals 9 times. Must be a pace thing.</div> Is this supposed to be the end all?
Ugh stop talking about Kobe-Jordan. Why can't we all just agree that Kobe is one of the greatest players..maybe top 5 or 6 players to ever play the game?
Denny Crane: Nonsense. I’ve been practicing law for 45 years. Never lost a single case. Walter Fife: You’ve never lost? Denny Crane: My record is six thousand and forty-three to O. You hear the one about the fellow who died, went to the Pearly Gates, St Peter let him in, sees a guy in suit making a closing arguments. Says, “Who’s that?” St Peter says, “Ohhh, that God. Thinks he’s Denny Crane.” Ha, ha, ha, ha! I’m your boy Walter. Never lost. Never will.
I'm sweating balls right now, I can't feel my toes and all my emotions are building up right now. I just want this game to start.
