For the last 20 years, the top player on the 2 finals teams, and the top player on the final 4 teams. 2008- Kevin Garnett (PF) / Kobe Bryant (SG) 2007- Lebron James (SF) / Tim Duncan (PF) 2006- Dwyane Wade (SG) / Dirk Nowitzki (PF) 2005- Chauncey Billups (PG) / Tim Duncan (PF) 2004- Ben Wallace © / Shaquille O'neal © 2003- Jason Kidd (PG) / Tim Duncan (PF) 2002- Jason Kidd (PG) / Shaquille O'neal © 2001- Allen Iverson (SG) / Shaquille O'neal © 2000- Reggie Miller (SG) / Shaquille O'neal © 1999- Latrell Spreewell (SF) / Tim Duncan (PF) 1998- Michael Jordan (SG) / Karl Malone (PF) 1997- Michael Jordan (SG) / Karl Malone (PF) 1996- Michael Jordan (SG) / Shawn Kemp (PF) 1995- Shaquille O'neal © / Hakeem Olujawon © 1994- Patrick Ewing © / Hakeem Olujawon © 1993- Michael Jordan (SG) / Charles Barkley (PF) 1992- Michael Jordan (SG) / Clyde Drexler (SG) 1991- Michael Jordan (SG) / Magic Johnson (PG) 1990- Isiah Thomas (PG) / Clyde Drexler (SG) 1989- Isiah Thomas (PG) / Magic Johnson (PG) This makes it: 1. Shooting guards- 12 2. Power Forward- 10 3. Center- 9 4. Point Guard- 7 5. Small Forward- 2 Breaking it down to the top player from each of the final 4 teams. 2008- Kevin Garnett (PF) / Chauncey Billups (PG) / Kobe Bryant (SG) / Tim Duncan (PF) 2007- Lebron James (SF) / Chauncey Billups (PG) / Tim Duncan (PF) / Deron Williams (PG) 2006- Dwyane Wade (SG) / Chauncey Billups (PG) / Dirk Nowitzki (PF) / Steve Nash (PG) 2005- Chauncey Billups (PG) / Dwyane Wade (SG) / Tim Duncan (PF) / Steve Nash (PG) 2004- Ben Wallace © / Jermaine O'neal (PF) / Shaquille O'neal © / Kevin Garnett (PF) 2003- Jason Kidd (PG) / Ben Wallace © / Tim Duncan (PF) / Dirk Nowitzki (PF) 2002- Jason Kidd (PG) / Paul Pierce (SF) / Shaquille O'neal © / Chris Webber (PF) 2001- Allen Iverson (SG) / Ray Allen (SG) / Shaquille O'neal © / Tim Duncan (PF) 2000- Reggie Miller (SG) / Allan Houston (SG) / Shaquille O'neal © / Rasheed Wallace (PF) 1999- Latrell Spreewell (SF) / Reggie Miller (SG) / Tim Duncan (PF) / Rasheed Wallace (PF) 1998- Michael Jordan (SG) / Reggie Miller (SG) / Karl Malone (PF) / Shaquille O'neal © 1997- Michael Jordan (SG) / Alonzo Mourning © / Karl Malone (PF) / Charles Barkley (PF) 1996- Michael Jordan (SG) / Shaquille O'neal © / Shawn Kemp (PF) / Karl Malone (PF) 1995- Shaquille O'neal © / Reggie Miller (SG) / Hakeem Olujawon © / David Robinson © 1994- Patrick Ewing © / Reggie Miller (SG) / Hakeem Olujawon © / Karl Malone (PF) 1993- Michael Jordan (SG) / Patrick Ewing © / Charles Barkley (PF) / Shawn Kemp (PF) 1992- Michael Jordan (SG) / Brad Daugherty © / Clyde Drexler (SG) / Karl Malone (PF) 1991- Michael Jordan (SG) / Joe Dumars (SG) / Magic Johnson (PG) / Clyde Drexler (SG) 1990- Isiah Thomas (PG) / Michael Jordan (SG) / Clyde Drexler (SG) / Kevin Johnson (PG) 1989- Isiah Thomas (PG) / Michael Jordan (SG) / Magic Johnson (PG) / Kevin Johnson (PG) 1.Shooting Guards- 23 / Power Forwards- 23 3. Center- 16 4. Point Guard- 15 5. Small Forward- 3 To put this in percents: Shooting Guards- 29.75% Power Forwards- 29.75% Centers- 20% Point Guards- 18.75% Small Forwards- 3.75%
Huh. Seems like it says to me "take the best player...." because great players are all over that list.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vintage @ Jun 2 2008, 06:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Huh. Seems like it says to me "take the best player...." because great players are all over that list.</div> Point guards are iffy when making top picks. Look at the top 10 point guards/power forwards Look at the top 10 point guards and top 10 powerforwards in the league. Jason Kidd (DAL/PHO/NJ/DAL) Allen Iverson (PHI/DEN) Chauncey Billups (BOS/TOR/DEN/MIN/DET) Gilbert Arenas (GSW/WAS) Deron Williams (UTH) Chris Paul (NOH) Steve Nash (PHO/DAL/PHO) Baron Davis (NOH/GSW) Andre Miller (CLE/LAC/DEN/PHI) Tony Parker (SAS) Tony Parker is the only one not on a rookie contract to stay with the same team. The guys off rookie contracts have an average of 3.3 teams. Then look at the top power forwards in the league. Chris Bosh (TOR) Kevin Garnett (MIN/BOS) Elton Brand (CHI/LAC) Carlos Boozer (CLE/UTH) Pau Gasol (MEM/LAL) Amare Stoudemire (PHO) Tim Duncan (SAS) Dirk Nowitzki (DAL) David West (NOH) Al Jefferson (MIN) Out of the guys who are off rookie contracts, they have played on an average of 1.5 teams. The problem is that you can't really tell if a point guard will be special, because a lot of times, the college games restricts us from seeing things like playmaking/court vision out of a point guard because of less spacing and the shorter three point line (making the three point shot a major strategy). Picking point guards can be in a lot of ways a shot in the dark. That is the case with Rose, he didn't show playmaking abilities or court vision in Memphis. The system restricted him, and it'll be a shot in the dark for whether he has those skills that will put him on the level of a Chris Paul. While with Beasley, this guy has all of the offensive moves you could ask for, is a great dribbler, and a good shooter. This guy we know will be able to score in the NBA. We can't really tell that with the point guards. Is Rose the superstar point guard? Is it Bayless? Augustin? Jason Richards? OJ Mayo? It is really hard to tell how a point guard will turn out. This point guard phenomenon seems to be one of the things where a player like Beasley, who was a dominant freshman in the NCAA, one of the most dominant in recent times gets passed up for a player who hasn't shown that ability to dominate. Chris Paul/Deron Williams's successes have started this frenzy. Have to get the next point guard. We saw it with big men which caused Brown to be the #1 pick, then Chandler/Curry in the top 3 as a result of Kevin Garnett and Kobe Bryant's success. Saw it with Darko at #2 as a result of Peja and Dirk. I think this may be the thing with Rose. I don't think Rose will be as bad of a pick as Darko or Kwame, but I think there is no business in discussing taking him over Beasley.
You do realize that no one here is actually part of the Bulls staff, and wasting all your time posting this garbage will not make your dream of getting Beasley any closer? History says to draft the SG. Get OJ Mayo. I say we split it into guards and forwards. Guards win. Take Rose. Your logic sucks. I could fix it, but then I'd be god.
BG7, The PFs you listed, only 1 made the finals before this year (Garnett and Gasol would be 2nd). The PGs you listed, Billups won two championships, Iverson and Kidd were finalists, Parker's won championships... You see the problem with your line of thinking here? Since there is no dominant, franchise center available in the draft (like Duncan), you take the guy who's got the best chance to be a real star in the league, and show it right away. Regardless of position. The Bulls simply don't have anyone at any position you'd not want to upgrade in some way.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...,6694718.column Downey makes the case for taking Beasley, though "everyone" seems to want Rose. I don't think the Bulls can really go that wrong taking either, but I do have a question for the basketball experts out there... There's a saying "never trade big for small" and isn't this something along the same lines? If neither Beasley nor Rose is head and shoulders better than the other, then maybe the big guy is the guy to draft. Rose could be really good, but it took Chris Paul 3 years, basically, to become a top 3 type PG.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 2 2008, 09:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...,6694718.column Downey makes the case for taking Beasley, though "everyone" seems to want Rose. I don't think the Bulls can really go that wrong taking either, but I do have a question for the basketball experts out there... There's a saying "never trade big for small" and isn't this something along the same lines? If neither Beasley nor Rose is head and shoulders better than the other, then maybe the big guy is the guy to draft. Rose could be really good, but it took Chris Paul 3 years, basically, to become a top 3 type PG.</div> Beasley is the obvious pick, especially with my philosophy in creating a team. You would think he would be the obvious pick for many Bulls fans. They spent so much time bitching the last 2 years about how Gordon isn't a good enough first option, he'd be fine as a 2nd option, we need a go to guy. And then the "we need a scoring 4". So now we have the opportunity to get a scoring 4 who would be our go to scorer, and all of a sudden none of them want him? Gordon/Deng/Beasley....or more important Gordon/Beasley. No longer can teams just double and triple Gordon, and focus all on him. Beasley will take pressure off of Gordon, which will make Gordon play better. We'd have a good inside-out duo, and another guy who is automatic for midrange who could get open more often with all the attention on Gordon and Beasley. So then you establish Gordon/Deng/Beasley as your core, you have your 2-4 set up for the next 10 years. That is a talented enough core to win championships as long as Beasley doesn't bust. It is hard to get 3 really good players together, so we may be able to catch lightning in a bottle thanks to our miracle lottery night. That gives you the peripheral pieces of Hinrich, Thabo, Nocioni, Gooden, Thomas, Noah, Hughes to play around with. You can really get some good pieces in a trade for that. What would I look to do first? Get a defensive anchor to put next to Beasley. Emeka Okafor. Plain and simple. Give him a bit of inflated contract that Bobcats won't want to match, and offer them a good talent package back (two of three of Thomas/Gooden/Noah) would be a good package. Further woo him with Ben Gordon, get him to want to come here, and force the sign and trade. Okafor would erase whatever defensive deficiencies Beasley might have, and those of our backcourt (if it ends up too small). Then what do you want to do with point guard? Gordon/Hirnich have proved to be a good backcourt, just not last year because Hinrich fell apart. If he gets back to his old level, he is definitely a fine enough 4th or 5th option. Or do you want to go after one of the point guards who may be available (Baron Davis/Gilbert Arenas) and throw a package of Hinrich/Thabo/the leftover big from the Okafor trade for them. Or do you go after a shooting guard and move Gordon to point guard? Michael Redd would be available? Gordon/Redd/Deng/Beasley would be one of the best if not best scoring quartet in league history. You still have only one defensive liability....but the big question is can Gordon handle the point guard? I think he can. With this quartet, a playmaking point guard wouldn't be overly important. The key would be for Gordon to be able to break presses, which he showed improvement in last year. He has always been at his best in the half court when playing a point guard like role in the offense. I think Gordon/Deng/Beasley is a lot easier to build around than Rose/Gordon/Deng....because we still don't have the best big men.
Paxson has been shopping Hinrich/Thomas heavily, and is said to be pissed of at Thomas for his complete lack of hard work. Regardless of where we picked, I felt that Hinrich/Thomas, both of them were probably gone. The pick probably sealed both of their fates...obviously the one who gets replaced by who we draft is out, but the other has a good chance of being shipped off as well.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne @ Jun 2 2008, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Beasley is the obvious pick, especially with my philosophy in creating a team.</div> We've identified the problem.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne @ Jun 2 2008, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>For the last 20 years, the top player on the 2 finals teams, and the top player on the final 4 teams. 2008- Kevin Garnett (PF) / Kobe Bryant (SG) 2007- Lebron James (SF) / Tim Duncan (PF) 2006- Dwyane Wade (SG) / Dirk Nowitzki (PF) 2005- Chauncey Billups (PG) / Tim Duncan (PF) 2004- Ben Wallace © / Shaquille O'neal © 2003- Jason Kidd (PG) / Tim Duncan (PF) 2002- Jason Kidd (PG) / Shaquille O'neal © 2001- Allen Iverson (SG) / Shaquille O'neal © 2000- Reggie Miller (SG) / Shaquille O'neal © 1999- Latrell Spreewell (SF) / Tim Duncan (PF) 1998- Michael Jordan (SG) / Karl Malone (PF) 1997- Michael Jordan (SG) / Karl Malone (PF) 1996- Michael Jordan (SG) / Shawn Kemp (PF) 1995- Shaquille O'neal © / Hakeem Olujawon © 1994- Patrick Ewing © / Hakeem Olujawon © 1993- Michael Jordan (SG) / Charles Barkley (PF) 1992- Michael Jordan (SG) / Clyde Drexler (SG) 1991- Michael Jordan (SG) / Magic Johnson (PG) 1990- Isiah Thomas (PG) / Clyde Drexler (SG) 1989- Isiah Thomas (PG) / Magic Johnson (PG) This makes it: 1. Shooting guards- 12 2. Power Forward- 10 3. Center- 9 4. Point Guard- 7 5. Small Forward- 2 Breaking it down to the top player from each of the final 4 teams. 2008- Kevin Garnett (PF) / Chauncey Billups (PG) / Kobe Bryant (SG) / Tim Duncan (PF) 2007- Lebron James (SF) / Chauncey Billups (PG) / Tim Duncan (PF) / Deron Williams (PG) 2006- Dwyane Wade (SG) / Chauncey Billups (PG) / Dirk Nowitzki (PF) / Steve Nash (PG) 2005- Chauncey Billups (PG) / Dwyane Wade (SG) / Tim Duncan (PF) / Steve Nash (PG) 2004- Ben Wallace © / Jermaine O'neal (PF) / Shaquille O'neal © / Kevin Garnett (PF) 2003- Jason Kidd (PG) / Ben Wallace © / Tim Duncan (PF) / Dirk Nowitzki (PF) 2002- Jason Kidd (PG) / Paul Pierce (SF) / Shaquille O'neal © / Chris Webber (PF) 2001- Allen Iverson (SG) / Ray Allen (SG) / Shaquille O'neal © / Tim Duncan (PF) 2000- Reggie Miller (SG) / Allan Houston (SG) / Shaquille O'neal © / Rasheed Wallace (PF) 1999- Latrell Spreewell (SF) / Reggie Miller (SG) / Tim Duncan (PF) / Rasheed Wallace (PF) 1998- Michael Jordan (SG) / Reggie Miller (SG) / Karl Malone (PF) / Shaquille O'neal © 1997- Michael Jordan (SG) / Alonzo Mourning © / Karl Malone (PF) / Charles Barkley (PF) 1996- Michael Jordan (SG) / Shaquille O'neal © / Shawn Kemp (PF) / Karl Malone (PF) 1995- Shaquille O'neal © / Reggie Miller (SG) / Hakeem Olujawon © / David Robinson © 1994- Patrick Ewing © / Reggie Miller (SG) / Hakeem Olujawon © / Karl Malone (PF) 1993- Michael Jordan (SG) / Patrick Ewing © / Charles Barkley (PF) / Shawn Kemp (PF) 1992- Michael Jordan (SG) / Brad Daugherty © / Clyde Drexler (SG) / Karl Malone (PF) 1991- Michael Jordan (SG) / Joe Dumars (SG) / Magic Johnson (PG) / Clyde Drexler (SG) 1990- Isiah Thomas (PG) / Michael Jordan (SG) / Clyde Drexler (SG) / Kevin Johnson (PG) 1989- Isiah Thomas (PG) / Michael Jordan (SG) / Magic Johnson (PG) / Kevin Johnson (PG) 1.Shooting Guards- 23 / Power Forwards- 23 3. Center- 16 4. Point Guard- 15 5. Small Forward- 3 To put this in percents: Shooting Guards- 29.75% Power Forwards- 29.75% Centers- 20% Point Guards- 18.75% Small Forwards- 3.75%</div> Sloth, the only thing that really jumps out at me from that list is that to win a championship you just need some really damn good players, period. I think the correlations you are making are dubious. I'm not sure what sort of statistical analysis you could apply to those results, but I'm guessing it would turn out that there's a large chance that the importance of having a great player at a particular position is pretty random.
You could do a Chi-Square test with those, but it wouldn't be that good because there are less than 5 small forwards (in the second set).
BG7, you do realize that Beasley is 6'7" without shoes and 6'8" in shoes, which makes him a small forward, right? Outside of LeBron, how many SFs are the best players on a championship team?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ Jun 3 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>BG7, you do realize that Beasley is 6'7" without shoes and 6'8" in shoes, which makes him a small forward, right?</div> That doesn't matter. There are shorter players and players around the same height who play PF in the NBA. Beasley's a combo forward.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Jun 3 2008, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ Jun 3 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>BG7, you do realize that Beasley is 6'7" without shoes and 6'8" in shoes, which makes him a small forward, right?</div> That doesn't matter. There are shorter players and players around the same height who play PF in the NBA. Beasley's a combo forward. </div> Yup. He has a longer standing reach than Joakim Noah (Bulls Center) and Drew Gooden (Bulls Powerforward), so he would be an upgrade in the length department. In addition, he measured out good at 239 pounds and 19 bench press reps showing good strength. I'm not concerned about Beasley's height in the least part. If he measured 215-225 pounds and hardly could get the bench press bar up more than a few times I would be worried, but he is average size for an NBA power forward. Beasley has good quickness, is a great dribbler, and has great footwork in the post (both mid and low). He will be able to take other power forwards off the dribble. (and not in that out of control Tyrus Thomas way). Those skills will make him a very good offensive player in the NBA. He also has the size, strength, athleticism, and length to be a very good rebounder in the NBA. Need to work with him on his passing and defense, but his scoring/rebounding skills make him for the most part everything we've been asking for. He's here for the taking, so lets go get him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jun 3 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>seems like another 3 to me </div> But he's got the same build as David West
