in honor of MJ I felt the need to post these for the youngins that missed out..... http://youtube.com/watch?v=med9nvhCkao (Jordan goes insane on blazers) http://youtube.com/watch?v=A7IZIRgzNEY&feature=related (Jordan goes insane on blazers part II) http://youtube.com/watch?v=vysHGJTU1fo&feature=related (Pippen and Jordan take turns baptizing Patrick Ewing) http://youtube.com/watch?v=8rmKL8mkc-E (master of the fadeaway) http://youtube.com/watch?v=BC5sW1Xnj3g (and for good measure Kobe vs. MJ)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 14 2008, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe not a "terrible" teammate but Kobe is NOT a great teammate or a good teammate by any means.</div> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe, to me, is a horrible teammate. All that garbage we were fed all year about how great of a teammate and leader he is..hogwash to me. When the going gets rough its too much finger pointing, whining, yelling and selfishness. Kobe is the best player in the league and is a lockdown defender but I just think as a person he's a straight up asshole. That halftime piece with Kobe and his family was so fake and fabricated it wasn't even funny. He tried to clean up his image and the league tried to clean up his image because they lack a "face"..but it's all hogwash. When the going gets rough as I said he's a terrible teammate and resorts to the old crap he used to pull. I still can't believe he won the Most Valuable Player after his antics at the beginning of the season. Now we're seeing the real Kobe Bryant.</div> What makes you say he's not a good teammate? This is one game where he didn't come through. Have you watched all the Laker games? And all the other playoff games besides this one? He was a bad teammate in the past years, but there's no way you can say that about him this year. The Lakers were at the top of the West before they even traded for Bynum. He was working hard being a facilitator, getting his teammates good looks at shot and if shots weren't falling for them, he'd turn it on and take over. Does the MVP award really base things on what the player did at BEFORE the season? He was mad that the organization lied to him and never got him any help. But when the season started he still kept playing didn't he? He took his team to 1st place in the West earlier in the season with players like Cook and Brown on the team. What did he do when the Lakers lost game 4? Who was he pointing fingers at? Who did he whine about? Paul Pierce didn't shut him down. The whole Celtics team defense was great. They shut down the pick and rolls and had great help and double team defense. How are you going to accuse Kobe and his family of being fake when you have Paul Pierce on your team?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 14 2008, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jun 14 2008, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well it's quite clear 1 player cannot win a championship by themself, Jordan can't guard 5 players, Shaq can't guard 5 players, Magic Johnson can't guard 5 players. I would say that there are few big men ever who could score down low like Shaq, but there are a lot more options in scoring swingmen to pair with Shaq like Vince Carter, Pierce, Tracy McGrady, Wade, Kobe, Ray Allen, Ginobli, whoever. If I had to choose a starting piece to build a championship team I would pick a in his prime Shaq before a in his prime Kobe.</div> The funny thing is before this series all Lakers fans and Kobe fans were telling us that LA was going to dominate this series and win in 5 because of Kobe and just because of Kobe. Then when we told them they couldn't win a title on the shoulders of one player they told us that we were wrong because the Lakers had the "deepest team and deepest bench" in the league. Now they're once again blaming his lack of help and teammates and saying "it isn't Kobe's fault, he has no help" It's really funny how Lakers fans think and speak. Do they think before they speak? </div> Have you seen Gasol play after the first game against the Nuggets? It has been mostly downhill from there on offense, chill.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jun 14 2008, 05:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 13 2008, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Empirically, I don't see a great case for West. (Blah blah pace-adjusted numbers, you know the deal with me) And this victory was far from Kobe's fault. Living up to the Jordan name is tough, I don't see the shame in not being as great. Either way this thread is premature.</div> I wouldn't lay all of the blame on Kobe, but you mean to tell me Great players are not supposed to take over the 4th quarter in the finals and win the game? they aren't supposed to get a for sure score when the other team is on a run to stop the bleeding? Especially in their prime? any legend of the game did it when they were in their prime. This was Kobe's time to step up and go on a scoring spree, screw the offense. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Isiah Thomas all did it when it was time, that's why they're remembered as champions. As for the adjustment for pace etc.. do you adjust today's game vs the slow down no one scores 100 ppg 90's era? Does that mean Jordan's, Drexler's, Malone's, Ewing's, Robinson's numbers should be adjusted up? Screw adjustments, West was a player! He'd achieve great numbers in any era </div> Kobe played fantastic in the second game, the Series should be 2-2 imo. It isn't that way, but you should have waited one more game before making this statement. Seriously you're impatient as hell. West is a great player to me, though nothing empirically suggests he's better (pace-adjusted). Kobe has been clutch all the time, especially this year (including Games 2/3,and of course during the first three rounds). And yes I have adjusted everyone's pace according to their era.
Once again, I will post some "great teammate" MJ quotes. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>"I'll let them stand up and take responsibility for themselves." "They've got no idea what it's all about. The white guys, they work hard, but they don't have the talent. And the rest of them? Who knows what to expect? They're not good for much of anything." "We have to do some things. We need to make some changes." "...I call them 'the Looney Tunes.' Physically, they were the best. Mentally, they weren't even close." "He's scared. He's got no heart...Nobody told me that. If I had spoken up, he wouldn't have been here." "I know I can recognize what to do, but I'm not sure they can." "It's a hell of a lot easier to make Earl Monroe look good than it is Brad Sellers." "I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box "They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends "Give me the ******* ball." - Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine "I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn't do something. It wasn't my fault." "You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant "I hate being out there with those garbagemen. They don't get you the ball." "If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you'll never get the ball from me." "We're not winning because of talent. We're just beating bad teams." "Headache tonight, Scottie?" - Michael asks Scottie, while showing him his 2-for-16 line "It's probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up." - Michael on a ten-day contract teammate "Five more years and I'm out of here. I'm marking these days on a calendar, like I'm in jail. I'm tired of being used by this organization, by the league, by the writers, by everyone." "They're not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won't make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They're spending all their time chasing this guy." "If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team." "He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue "We're beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs...Can Pip keep it up?" "I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year." "You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can't get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds? Big guy like that and he gets one rebound. Can't even stick his ass into people and get more than that...Big, fat, fat guy. One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward." - Michael ripping Stacey King a new one "He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility "Will Vanderbilt. He doesn't deserve to be named after a Big Ten school." - Michael on Will Perdue "I want to prove the critics wrong...I want to see some serious moves from management, which I really haven't seen that much of yet, and I want to see more serious attitudes from my teammates this year when it comes to the playoffs. In the past, it's been more or less a joking thing, sort of a 'Well, we're here, so let's have a good time.'" "I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting." "I know what I would do if I were coach. I'd determine our strengths and weaknesses and utilize them. And it's pretty clear what our strength is." "Your boy doesn't want to play. I'm tired of bailing his ass out." - Michael yelling at Jim Cleamons about Dennis Hopson "I don't know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy." - Michael questioning the Oakley trade "He's causing me too many turnovers." - Michael on Cartwright's inability to catch "Why the hell don't you ever set a pick like that in a game?" - Michael yelling at Perdue after also hitting Perdue upside his head (led to the institution of the private curtain for practices)</div>
So it's ok if Kobe yells, and whines at his teammates when the going gets rough, because Jordan did it?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jun 14 2008, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So it's ok if Kobe yells, and whines at his teammates when the going gets rough, because Jordan did it?</div> People are singling him out. Yeah it is more ok to me.
I wonder if Jordan also pretended to the media that he was like best friends with all the guys on the squad when he was around media.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumpman @ Jun 14 2008, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 14 2008, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe not a "terrible" teammate but Kobe is NOT a great teammate or a good teammate by any means.</div> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe, to me, is a horrible teammate. All that garbage we were fed all year about how great of a teammate and leader he is..hogwash to me. When the going gets rough its too much finger pointing, whining, yelling and selfishness. Kobe is the best player in the league and is a lockdown defender but I just think as a person he's a straight up asshole. That halftime piece with Kobe and his family was so fake and fabricated it wasn't even funny. He tried to clean up his image and the league tried to clean up his image because they lack a "face"..but it's all hogwash. When the going gets rough as I said he's a terrible teammate and resorts to the old crap he used to pull. I still can't believe he won the Most Valuable Player after his antics at the beginning of the season. Now we're seeing the real Kobe Bryant.</div> What makes you say he's not a good teammate? This is one game where he didn't come through. Have you watched all the Laker games? And all the other playoff games besides this one? He was a bad teammate in the past years, but there's no way you can say that about him this year. The Lakers were at the top of the West before they even traded for Bynum. He was working hard being a facilitator, getting his teammates good looks at shot and if shots weren't falling for them, he'd turn it on and take over. Does the MVP award really base things on what the player did at BEFORE the season? He was mad that the organization lied to him and never got him any help. But when the season started he still kept playing didn't he? He took his team to 1st place in the West earlier in the season with players like Cook and Brown on the team. What did he do when the Lakers lost game 4? Who was he pointing fingers at? Who did he whine about? Paul Pierce didn't shut him down. The whole Celtics team defense was great. They shut down the pick and rolls and had great help and double team defense. How are you going to accuse Kobe and his family of being fake when you have Paul Pierce on your team? </div> What does Paul Pierce have to do with this at all? Your just like all the other Kobe Bryant apologists out there, blaming all of his character issues and selfishness on others. You're willing to give him all the credit in the world when his team is successful but if they aren't it's because "he doesn't have any help" or "his teammates are horrible" Then you praise Bynum as the next great center that is going to lead this team to 5 NBA championships. That guy played with Kobe Bryant for the first half of the season at the best he ever played in his career, averaging a double double and being a defensive force in the paint [that LA is desperately missing right now] and then when he got injured Pau Gasol came to the Lakers and filled that void Bynum left offensively at the very least. Kobe's little "great teammate story" was cute during the regular season and it was sorta cute during the postseason up until this series. But when the going has gotten tough Kobe hasn't been able to manage games correctly. Michael Jordan would have never been a victim to a 30 point swing and a 24-point collapse. He would have been able to turn it on at the right time. Kobe hasn't proven he can win a ring without Shaquille O'Neal, a top 7 player of all-time. It isn't going to happen this year and yes it IS on his shoulders whenever the Lakers lose. Why do you sing "MVP! MVP!" when the Lakers are "on top of the world" and winning but blame everybody BUT Kobe Bryant when the Lakers lose? Suddenly the Lakers have a horrible team? Why can't you Lakers/Kobe stans just admit that? KOBE ISN'T EVEN CLOSE TO JORDAN..he's a bad teammate and the Kobe lovefest is an absolute joke. He's earned all the respect he's gotten as an individual player but his newfound "reputation" as a team player is fabricated.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 14 2008, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumpman @ Jun 14 2008, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 14 2008, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe not a "terrible" teammate but Kobe is NOT a great teammate or a good teammate by any means.</div> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe, to me, is a horrible teammate. All that garbage we were fed all year about how great of a teammate and leader he is..hogwash to me. When the going gets rough its too much finger pointing, whining, yelling and selfishness. Kobe is the best player in the league and is a lockdown defender but I just think as a person he's a straight up asshole. That halftime piece with Kobe and his family was so fake and fabricated it wasn't even funny. He tried to clean up his image and the league tried to clean up his image because they lack a "face"..but it's all hogwash. When the going gets rough as I said he's a terrible teammate and resorts to the old crap he used to pull. I still can't believe he won the Most Valuable Player after his antics at the beginning of the season. Now we're seeing the real Kobe Bryant.</div> What makes you say he's not a good teammate? This is one game where he didn't come through. Have you watched all the Laker games? And all the other playoff games besides this one? He was a bad teammate in the past years, but there's no way you can say that about him this year. The Lakers were at the top of the West before they even traded for Gasol**. He was working hard being a facilitator, getting his teammates good looks at shot and if shots weren't falling for them, he'd turn it on and take over. Does the MVP award really base things on what the player did at BEFORE the season? He was mad that the organization lied to him and never got him any help. But when the season started he still kept playing didn't he? He took his team to 1st place in the West earlier in the season with players like Cook and Brown on the team. What did he do when the Lakers lost game 4? Who was he pointing fingers at? Who did he whine about? Paul Pierce didn't shut him down. The whole Celtics team defense was great. They shut down the pick and rolls and had great help and double team defense. How are you going to accuse Kobe and his family of being fake when you have Paul Pierce on your team? </div> What does Paul Pierce have to do with this at all? Your just like all the other Kobe Bryant apologists out there, blaming all of his character issues and selfishness on others. You're willing to give him all the credit in the world when his team is successful but if they aren't it's because "he doesn't have any help" or "his teammates are horrible" Then you praise Bynum as the next great center that is going to lead this team to 5 NBA championships. That guy played with Kobe Bryant for the first half of the season at the best he ever played in his career, averaging a double double and being a defensive force in the paint [that LA is desperately missing right now] and then when he got injured Pau Gasol came to the Lakers and filled that void Bynum left offensively at the very least. Kobe's little "great teammate story" was cute during the regular season and it was sorta cute during the postseason up until this series. But when the going has gotten tough Kobe hasn't been able to manage games correctly. Michael Jordan would have never been a victim to a 30 point swing and a 24-point collapse. He would have been able to turn it on at the right time. Kobe hasn't proven he can win a ring without Shaquille O'Neal, a top 7 player of all-time. It isn't going to happen this year and yes it IS on his shoulders whenever the Lakers lose. Why do you sing "MVP! MVP!" when the Lakers are "on top of the world" and winning but blame everybody BUT Kobe Bryant when the Lakers lose? Suddenly the Lakers have a horrible team? Why can't you Lakers/Kobe stans just admit that? KOBE ISN'T EVEN CLOSE TO JORDAN..he's a bad teammate and the Kobe lovefest is an absolute joke. He's earned all the respect he's gotten as an individual player but his newfound "reputation" as a team player is fabricated. </div> Because you said Pierce had "shut him down". When did I ever say Bynum was the next great center and lead us to 5 Championships? You obviously don't make sense, first you say we give all the credit in the world to Kobe when the team was successful, then you say we praise Bynum too much? What does that have to do with anything? When the Lakers got into the playoffs and finals, I didn't only give credit to Kobe. Kobe AND Bynum, Gasol, Fisher, Sasha and Odom got this team where it is now. Kobe is just the LEADER of the squad. I also gave a shit load of credits of the team's early success this season to Bynum and Fish. Also a lot of Lakers fans have blamed Kobe for the loss of game 1 of the finals. He shot himself out of the game. Not a single Laker fan or poster has said that Kobe was better than Jordan in this thread. My post was referring to yours about how Kobe is a bad teammate.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 14 2008, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> What does Paul Pierce have to do with this at all?</div> Yeah you're right, he's insignificant to the history of the NBA. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Your just like all the other Kobe Bryant apologists out there, blaming all of his character issues and selfishness on others. You're willing to give him all the credit in the world when his team is successful but if they aren't it's because "he doesn't have any help" or "his teammates are horrible"</div> You have no idea how well his "teammates" have been playing in the post-season. It is a fact that Pau has taken a severe drop in efficiency. It is amazing we're in the Finals, and all the games in the Finals have been close. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Then you praise Bynum as the next great center that is going to lead this team to 5 NBA championships. That guy played with Kobe Bryant for the first half of the season at the best he ever played in his career, averaging a double double and being a defensive force in the paint [that LA is desperately missing right now] and then when he got injured Pau Gasol came to the Lakers and filled that void Bynum left offensively at the very least.</div> I personally don't believe in Bynum's health. I've always thought this was a legit issue but people still love him, and I understand. I'd like to see if he can stay healthy for a season before I hype him up. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe's little "great teammate story" was cute during the regular season and it was sorta cute during the postseason up until this series. But when the going has gotten tough Kobe hasn't been able to manage games correctly. Michael Jordan would have never been a victim to a 30 point swing and a 24-point collapse.</div> When was Kobe not a good teammate? He was the only Laker playing well in the fourth quarter. He was 4-8 in the fourth until he had to take a quick shot in the closing seconds of the game. MJ had plenty of medicore/bad games in the 1996/etc. Finals for example. Pippen alone is easily better than Gasol, and more consistent. Again you know nothing about the Lakers aside from the highlights you've seen in the regular season, or you choose to ignore how poorly Pau has played against the Spurs and Celtics. Kobe had 10 assists, and him FACILITATING, was the reason the Lakers went up by 24. When his teammates wanted him to bail them out in the fourth quarter, he was actually pretty decent from the field. It is simply ignorant to put the blame on Kobe, and Jordan's had worse games in the Finals that the Bulls won for him.Comparing Jordan to Kobe should focus on other things, not this tangent. I don't think Kobe is empirically at MJ's level, though certainly not because of this. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He would have been able to turn it on at the right time. Kobe hasn't proven he can win a ring without Shaquille O'Neal, a top 7 player of all-time. It isn't going to happen this year and yes it IS on his shoulders whenever the Lakers lose. Why do you sing "MVP! MVP!" when the Lakers are "on top of the world" and winning but blame everybody BUT Kobe Bryant when the Lakers lose?</div> You're generalizing just as bad. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Suddenly the Lakers have a horrible team? Why can't you Lakers/Kobe stans just admit that? KOBE ISN'T EVEN CLOSE TO JORDAN..he's a bad teammate and the Kobe lovefest is an absolute joke. He's earned all the respect he's gotten as an individual player but his newfound "reputation" as a team player is fabricated.</div> Pau Gasol's TS% is 8% below his regular season production in the playoffs. And far below that number in the Finals. Face it, you know jack about the Lakers. Has Lamar Odom even been that spectacular this series? Kobe is indeed close to Michael, I give the edge to Jordan of course but he was hardly an Angel himself. It is these silly and amorphous posts filled with hate that provide nothing for this debate.
Actually I know plenty about the Lakers, I don't know where you get that from. I'm simply pointing out the contradictory in Lakers fans arguments. You'll say that the team is deep as hell and unbeatable and then you'll say that Kobe has no help. I don't get it
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 14 2008, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Actually I know plenty about the Lakers, I don't know where you get that from. I'm simply pointing out the contradictory in Lakers fans arguments. You'll say that the team is deep as hell and unbeatable and then you'll say that Kobe has no help. I don't get it</div> We never said the Lakers were unbeatable. Kobe didn't have help <u>before</u> this season, the 2nd best player was an inconsistant Odom. Sasha and Bynum didn't break out until this season. We had Smush and Kwame in our starting lineup. This year our team has been deep.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 14 2008, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Actually I know plenty about the Lakers, I don't know where you get that from. I'm simply pointing out the contradictory in Lakers fans arguments. You'll say that the team is deep as hell and unbeatable and then you'll say that Kobe has no help. I don't get it</div> Pau has been playing poorly for a while now, that has nothing to do with the Regular Season. He's clearly soft and playing out of position, and in the playoffs this has mattered more. Odom is the one that surprised me though, with his foul trouble and lack of production in the Finals. I was always confident in the Lakers because I didn't like the way the Celtics played against the Hawks/Cavs. They've done better though, so props to them on that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Jun 14 2008, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe, to me, is a horrible teammate. All that garbage we were fed all year about how great of a teammate and leader he is..hogwash to me. When the going gets rough its too much finger pointing, whining, yelling and selfishness. Kobe is the best player in the league and is a lockdown defender but I just think as a person he's a straight up asshole. That halftime piece with Kobe and his family was so fake and fabricated it wasn't even funny. He tried to clean up his image and the league tried to clean up his image because they lack a "face"..but it's all hogwash. When the going gets rough as I said he's a terrible teammate and resorts to the old crap he used to pull. I still can't believe he won the Most Valuable Player after his antics at the beginning of the season. Now we're seeing the real Kobe Bryant.</div> There are so many things wrong with this post, it kind of amazes me. Do you know Kobe personally? Do you know how Kobe acts off the court? Do you have any idea how much work Kobe does for the community, the positive things he does that doesn't get published on ESPN? And what the do mean by his "antics at the beginning of the season." He was the best player in the regular season, which is why he won the MVP
Um, no he wasn't. He was talking about how Kobe's segment with his family is entirely fake and staged. And I would like to know how he would come to such conclusions. Does he know Kobe's family? Does he know what Kobe does off the court? "Now we're seeing the real Kobe Bryant." What's the real Kobe Bryant? He hasn't said anything negative to the press after Game 4 Also, as for his trade demands this offseason, I didn't agree with the way he handled everything, although I had no problem with him demanding a trade. Kobe was just frustrated with the lack of direction on the team. When he resigned with the Lakers, the management promised to surround him with a championship calibure roster. Three years later, they're no where closer than they were before
I for one think he's a very good teammate and he shows it on the court. He might be mad at them from time to time, but who isn't, when you want to win so much. Just like KG for example.
