Warriors think Davis leaving wouldn't be all bad

If I were a Warriors fan, I would be devastated unless Brand or Arenas signed. Otherwise I would be a VERY angry fan.

As far as the Hinrich-Harrington deal idea. It's not bad. It fills needs for both teams.

 

Just reading blogs and general reactions around the league, I'd say 90% of fans are sad/depressed/angry.

I'm one of the 10%, although I no doubt I favored 1 more year with Baron. But it was obvious what Mullin's plan was when he traded away J-Rich for Wright, to rebuild with the younger guys. Talk about telegraphing a pass, 2-3 years down the line. At that time, I was definitely upset. But because of how the cap and free agency can go, I'm ok with it, considering there's still plenty of possibilities for the Warriors to rebuild, rather than be mired in that old playoff slump.

 

I like Kirk Hinrich. I wouldn't see any problem with getting Hinrich as a replacement for Baron. He's pretty savvy with the ball, he's a nice shooter, he is quick, he's got leadership qualities, he is tall, he plays good defense, he passes well. If it costs Al Harrington, we lose our best 3 point shooting big man and most versatile player. But for Hinrich, I think it's more than a fair deal since I'm not a huge fan of Harrington anyway. It would force Nelson to play Hendrix at PF or Anthony Randolph at SF a lot sooner if we're discounting FA forwards. Assuming SJAX is forward and not a shooting guard, we'd have to find an nba-ready shooting guard to cover the positions where Monta Ellis is too small to guard it. Plus, we'd have a completely unproven power forward lineup with Harrington gone.

On second thought, I'd rather not pursue Hinrich unless we're losing Ellis as well. It's either one or the other considering both are very good players at point guard, but to play both at the same time causes us the same problems as last year on defense. I think Hinrich is more solid all-around (because he went to college and is a coach's son) while Ellis is more spectacular on the quickness/athleticism charts but is still learning the game. One thing you have to like about Hinrich is he's got a great motor and he's a leader. With Ellis... you're not sure what his leadership abilities are. But Ellis can score points in a hurry and at insane %'s. If they never figure Ellis out he'll be unstoppable. I don't think Hinrich has that quality so Ellis could very well surpass him at some point as a playmaking combo guard.

In fact if somebody wanted to trade us an elite big man for Ellis, I might do it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 3 2008, 01:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hinrich has played a lot of SG on defense and is pretty good at guarding bigger players. He's consistently guarded opposing teams' best guards all along, even Michael Redd (who sucks against Hinrich most of the time).</div>

Really? I didn't know that. I thought he was only effective guarding point guards. He must have some decent arm length and natural strength, eh? I always thought he guarded the point guards while Gordon covered SG's, but maybe when Duhon was in the game Heinrich would have to move up one position bigger.

Heinrich could be a possibility. I like his game. He's your versatile all-around guard with a lot of everything that coach's love. Anybody with both defense and offense and doesn't choke at the foul line is cool in my book. Career 81% foul shooter would automatically make him team leader.

oh Btw I should be spelling it Hinrich, but I think the proper German spelling of it is Heinrich. It confuses me.

 

After signing his 5 year, $50 extension, Hinrich took a step back. His scoring average went down from 16.6 to 11.5, his FG went from 44.8% to 41.4%, and his 3 PT% went from 41.5% to 35.0%. Critics say he is not an ideal pure PG, but better when he can be relieved of PG duties and play off the ball for stretches (like Monta, eh?), basically to help him mentally. No one really knows what exactly went wrong, but basically it had to be alot in his head, maybe a lack of confidence, stress, or who knows. For the stats that mattered, Duhon basically outplayed him and that's why Duhon and Hinrich started, with Gordon coming off the bench, although this was eventually swapped for Hinrich and a committee of guards when the Bulls kept on losing games last year. Even Hinrich's defense, which was considered great for the position, started to show some cracks.

All in all, maybe a new change of scenery would be good for him, if the Bulls really want to part with him.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Jul 3 2008, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I like Kirk Hinrich. I wouldn't see any problem with getting Hinrich as a replacement for Baron. He's pretty savvy with the ball, he's a nice shooter, he is quick, he's got leadership qualities, he is tall, he plays good defense, he passes well. If it costs Al Harrington, we lose our best 3 point shooting big man and most versatile player. But for Hinrich, I think it's more than a fair deal since I'm not a huge fan of Harrington anyway. It would force Nelson to play Hendrix at PF or Anthony Randolph at SF a lot sooner if we're discounting FA forwards. Assuming SJAX is forward and not a shooting guard, we'd have to find an nba-ready shooting guard to cover the positions where Monta Ellis is too small to guard it. Plus, we'd have a completely unproven power forward lineup with Harrington gone.</div>

CR2 -- I totally agree with this first paragraph. I'd hope Azibuike returns to GS. He's a tough SG/SF who can rebound and defend very well for his position, and he can play the SG at times for Nellie, depending on match-ups, to guard the stronger SGs in the league.

I would totally trade Harrington for Heinrich, only because we have a ton of potential Forwards and we need a good PG.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zhone @ Jul 3 2008, 01:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>After signing his 5 year, $50 extension, Hinrich took a step back. His scoring average went down from 16.6 to 11.5, his FG went from 44.8% to 41.4%, and his 3 PT% went from 41.5% to 35.0%. Critics say he is not an ideal pure PG, but better when he can be relieved of PG duties and play off the ball for stretches (like Monta, eh?), basically to help him mentally. No one really knows what exactly went wrong, but basically it had to be alot in his head, maybe a lack of confidence, stress, or who knows. For the stats that mattered, Duhon basically outplayed him and that's why Duhon and Hinrich started, with Gordon coming off the bench, although this was eventually swapped for Hinrich and a committee of guards when the Bulls kept on losing games last year. Even Hinrich's defense, which was considered great for the position, started to show some cracks.

All in all, maybe a new change of scenery would be good for him, if the Bulls really want to part with him.</div>

Hinrich was also injured for a while, I thought. Rib injury. I've gotten those and it sucks... Like anytime you raise your arm or make a shooting motion or someone uses their forearm on that general area to try and fight for post position, it hurts like hell.

I think Hinrich's game could also use a target to throw to. The Bulls were like the Warriors in some ways where they lacked a lot of inside scoring ability. I think the Warriors could be a candidate for better inside scoring if Wright develops and Biedrins works on his post game and they incorporate Kosta Perovic as backup center. I think those big players of ours would be better prospects than Ben Wallace or whoever they had at power forward at the time (Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah). Those prospects weren't real offensive players anyway and Biedrins has way better consistency and scoring ability than those two.

Let's also consider that the Bulls coaching staff was in disarray. It's hard to play like a team when the whole team has gone to hell. It was a huge distraction for all.

I think Hinrich would be a plus, but then again I don't know what his main style is. Is he halfcourt or can he run? Obviously he could run or else the Bulls wouldn't have been that successful.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlleyOop @ Jul 3 2008, 01:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Jul 3 2008, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I like Kirk Hinrich. I wouldn't see any problem with getting Hinrich as a replacement for Baron. He's pretty savvy with the ball, he's a nice shooter, he is quick, he's got leadership qualities, he is tall, he plays good defense, he passes well. If it costs Al Harrington, we lose our best 3 point shooting big man and most versatile player. But for Hinrich, I think it's more than a fair deal since I'm not a huge fan of Harrington anyway. It would force Nelson to play Hendrix at PF or Anthony Randolph at SF a lot sooner if we're discounting FA forwards. Assuming SJAX is forward and not a shooting guard, we'd have to find an nba-ready shooting guard to cover the positions where Monta Ellis is too small to guard it. Plus, we'd have a completely unproven power forward lineup with Harrington gone.</div>

CR2 -- I totally agree with this first paragraph. I'd hope Azibuike returns to GS. He's a tough SG/SF who can rebound and defend very well for his position, and he can play the SG at times for Nellie, depending on match-ups, to guard the stronger SGs in the league.

I would totally trade Harrington for Heinrich, only because we have a ton of potential Forwards and we need a good PG.
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Azubuike would be nice to have back, but I worry about his consistency. His ability to guard Kobe pretty well was something to value. I've seen Pietrus guard Kobe pretty well, but if Azu can do it and score the ball, the Dubs would definitely want that. Azu might be a huge steal if that injury he had goes away and he plays consistent minutes to actually make his mark as a starter.

 

I'm not sure of the chemistry we'd have by adding Hinrich besides the salary mismatch. More important, why would we do that if we don't have Elton Brand? The Bulls would be all over this deal and love to dump salary on us.

 

Hinrich is a quality NBA player. He regressed last year because they stunk, him included. They were basically a jump shooting team that played slow down, not a good combination. Their primary plays were Gordon off a screen or Deng. He is better than half the PGs out there and more importantly, I read his salary decreases over the years, not increases. Looking at his overall career, he was a near All-Star a couple of years ago. He's not injury prone, he distributes and looks to get others involved and can hit the J with good range. He would fit in here.

 

Isn't one of the reasons that Baron Davis decided to go to the Clippers is to become more active in the film industry or film trade? I mean I have no problem with him having other interests outside of basketball. But maybe this is another reason to not be so down about Baron leaving.

Now just comes the stress of having everything else come together.

As far as Kirk Hinrich, I'd just let Don Nelson have the say on him. Nelson has done pretty well in taking decent PGs and making them great: See Tim Hardaway, Baron Davis, and Steve Nash. I think the team needs a PG. Don Nelson hates watching Monta Ellis make dumb turnover in his streaks that he has during games. I don't like watching those streaks/periods either.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (philsmith75 @ Jul 3 2008, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hinrich is a quality NBA player. He regressed last year because they stunk, him included. They were basically a jump shooting team that played slow down, not a good combination. Their primary plays were Gordon off a screen or Deng. He is better than half the PGs out there and more importantly, I read his salary decreases over the years, not increases. Looking at his overall career, he was a near All-Star a couple of years ago. He's not injury prone, he distributes and looks to get others involved and can hit the J with good range. He would fit in here.</div>

I just took a look at his estimated contract according to this website: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/chicago.htm

Bingo, you're dead on, phil. 10mil, 9.5mil, 9.0 mil, 8mil seems like a bargain to me if you discount that one bad season where virtually every Bull played horribly and they went through 2 or 3 coaches (Skiles didn't last long that season, then Boylan was fired). Hinrich is valuable if you think about how many guys can't shoot and play defense at the same time. The guy could be a Chauncey Billups or a Gary Payton lite rolled into one if you put the right team around him. I think it's a good gamble because this team needs a leader and they need a model defensive player to add to Sjax, Biedrins. If we got Marco and Ellis playing the backcourt say goodbye to help D or defensive awareness. All the other team has to do is get guys caught up on screens of get us to try to switch or rotate. Some guys won't know what to do or they won't be strong enough to fight through.

If we want a combo guard to play a decent point, 10 mil with incremental decreases should be nothing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jason voorhees @ Jul 3 2008, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not sure of the chemistry we'd have by adding Hinrich besides the salary mismatch. More important, why would we do that if we don't have Elton Brand? The Bulls would be all over this deal and love to dump salary on us.</div>
I agree, if you don't get Brand or Smith, why bother taking on a big PG contract (although I do like the fact that Hinrich's contract is a frontloaded, declining one)? If you can't get a legit big man, might as well get the young guys playing time, save some money, hope for a great draft pick, and start looking for your next head coach.

Going half way is not a good solution. Either go for it (assuming they can sign a stud PF), or sacrifice any chance at the playoffs for next year to start the rebuilding now. I'd rather the Warriors suck this year but get started seriously evaluating and rebuilding than have some mediocre, frustrating team with almost no shot at a WC playoff berth. With Baron gone, showtime is over and the Warriors need to start trading in entertainment value for future playoff talent. If you know you're going to suck anyway, you can even sign another young prospect or two without the risk. They won't all pan out but at least you might know what you have after a year of that. Then you know who you need to trade and what FAs to target ahead of time. You use Baron's vacated cap space this year to frontload long term contracts if necessary, so it's not going to be too painful in a year or two when you need to sign some big FAs to load up for a playoff push.

 

I say get good, and keep building on that so that big name FA's want to play for you. We've got a good market for basketball in this area, it's just been a poorly run franchise in terms of basketball wins and front office management. I wouldn't rely on the draft lottery because what happens if you draft guys like Antoine Walker, Shareef Abdur Rahim, Glen Davis, Joe Smith, Raef La Frentz, Mike Dunleavy Jr. etc, etc. It's just a plain crapshoot in who you get. The BAP pick available to us might not be a franchise player, it could be another Jamison and one Jamison ain't going to turn the franchise around like a Dwade or a Shaq or a Duncan. But we might feel obligated to pick the best guy on the board because it's the BAP. Now if we got no options to improve via trade/FA acquisition and we're an embarrassing mess, then yeah we'll have to rely on good drafts to recover. In fact, that's partly how Mullin was able to redeem the franchise in addition to undoing those horrible signings of 2003-2004 season (Fisher, Foyle, DunMurphy). Getting Ellis, Biedrins were good moves.

I would like for us to follow the model of the Utah Jazz. Get two impact free agents and keep adding good draft picks (Deron Williams, Morris Almond, Ron Brewer, Paul Milsap, and now Kosta Kofous).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HiRez @ Jul 3 2008, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jason voorhees @ Jul 3 2008, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not sure of the chemistry we'd have by adding Hinrich besides the salary mismatch. More important, why would we do that if we don't have Elton Brand? The Bulls would be all over this deal and love to dump salary on us.</div>
I agree, if you don't get Brand or Smith, why bother taking on a big PG contract (although I do like the fact that Hinrich's contract is a frontloaded, declining one)? If you can't get a legit big man, might as well get the young guys playing time, save some money, hope for a great draft pick, and start looking for your next head coach.

Going half way is not a good solution. Either go for it (assuming they can sign a stud PF), or sacrifice any chance at the playoffs for next year to start the rebuilding now. I'd rather the Warriors suck this year but get started seriously evaluating and rebuilding than have some mediocre, frustrating team with almost no shot at a WC playoff berth. With Baron gone, showtime is over and the Warriors need to start trading in entertainment value for future playoff talent. If you know you're going to suck anyway, you can even sign another young prospect or two without the risk. They won't all pan out but at least you might know what you have after a year of that. Then you know who you need to trade and what FAs to target ahead of time. You use Baron's vacated cap space this year to frontload long term contracts if necessary, so it's not going to be too painful in a year or two when you need to sign some big FAs to load up for a playoff push.
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The Warriors already have Andris Biedrins and Brandan Wright who are supposed to develop into legit post players. I don't think adding Hinrich would ruin anyone's development. Maybe his contract is on the high end. I agree with what you are saying for the most part. I wouldn't want to see the Warriors add someone like Danny Fortson with a big contract when the next draft we get Murphy who already makes Fortson worthless. I am just not so sure if it applies to Hinrich here. He's pretty young as well, at about 27/28 for next season. But then again I have not seen this guy play that much, so I can't really say whether the Warriors should get him or not. He has a very nice assist to turnover ratio though. And he has decent shooting percentages, especially with range. Also he can make free throws, which would be a nice change/addition.

 

till i read this, i was pissed off, now that i think about it its not a bad deal. BD is old now and very injury prone, so if GSW loose him keep ellis and get hinrick GSW is fine. Plus 2010 will be a big year now have the cap room to sign a player from the 2010 free agency