<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tim @ Jul 4 2008, 11:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 4 2008, 11:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What did JFK accomplish once he got in? Bay of Pigs? Cuban Missile Crisis? Got us into Vietnam? Just curious if you know something I don't </div> I didn't realize that the Cold War began during the JFK administration. From what I have read, Kennedy handled the Cuban Missile Crisis as well as you possibly could and was something any president would have had to deal with. Even the human debt machine Reagan would have had to deal with it. </div> That's a stretch, Kennedy made a number of blunders. 1. About two months before the Cuban Missile Crisis began, the director of CIA came to Kennedy and told him there were French intelligence reports that said that there were Soviet missiles in Cuba. Kennedy didn't believe him, because he believed the Soviets when they said there were no missiles. U-2 planes proved him wrong. 2. The NSA McGeorge Bundy also said there were some evidence of missiles in Cuba, and Kennedy didn't want to believe it either. 3. When it was said there were 16,000 Soviet troops, Kennedy completely denied that. Turns out he was right. There were 40,000 troops.
All the missiles were evacuated from Cuba. Although 1 person did die from a U-2 plane, that was the only casualty from that particular event. It's awful to say that as if 1 death isn't that much, but considering the circumstances it had the potential to be been much worse.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tim @ Jul 5 2008, 12:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>All the missiles were evacuated from Cuba. Although 1 person did die from a U-2 plane, that was the only casualty from that particular event. It's awful to say that as if 1 death isn't that much, but considering the circumstances it had the potential to be been much worse.</div> That's right. It could have been a lot worse had Kennedy continued to taken the Soviet's word over intelligence reports. Thank god for the U-2 planes taking those pictures.
The planes were ordered by Kennedy to fly over Cuba. Whether he was reluctant in doing so is irrelevant. He was the one who ordered the flight.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tim @ Jul 5 2008, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The planes were ordered by Kennedy to fly over Cuba. Whether he was reluctant in doing so is irrelevant. He was the one who ordered the flight.</div> Was that before or after the preliminary reports came from the CIA director sent telegrams from his honeymoon saying there were French intelligence accounts that there were Soviet missiles in Cuba? He was on his honeymoon in August. The U-2 photographs didn't come until October.
My point is, although perhaps the death of the one U2 pilot possibly could have been avoided, JFK handled the missile crisis very well, avoiding any major confrontation. And there was major potential of confrontation.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tim @ Jul 5 2008, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My point is, although perhaps the death of the one U2 pilot possibly could have been avoided, JFK handled the missile crisis very well, avoiding any major confrontation. And there was major potential of confrontation.</div> And my point is, he could have handled it a lot better.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real @ Jul 5 2008, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tim @ Jul 5 2008, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My point is, although perhaps the death of the one U2 pilot possibly could have been avoided, JFK handled the missile crisis very well, avoiding any major confrontation. And there was major potential of confrontation.</div> And my point is, he could have handled it a lot better. </div> Well then agree to disagree I guess... Even though I'm right...
Politics seems so fake at times, when the Clintons were hugging it all looked like fake forced smiles to me, and I just don't believe a lot of what Hillary Clinton is saying. I really don't know who will make a better President. there are questions about Obama's experience, would McCain pull a Bush and go into Iran? Nader for Prez, jokes.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Jul 4 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Obama should not be the president because of many reasons but the main one is that he has no experience what so ever with foreign affairs, and would only take this country down with his bring the troop backs in 15 months crappy idea. VOTE 4 MCCAIN!!!</div> Someone knit Satan a sweater because I agree with a CK post!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy In South East Asia, Kennedy followed Eisenhower's lead by using limited military action to fight the Communist forces ostensibly led by Ho Chi Minh. Proclaiming a fight against the spread of Communism, Kennedy enacted policies providing political, economic, and military support for the unstable French-installed South Vietnamese government, which included sending 16,000 military advisors and U.S. Special Forces to the area. Kennedy also agreed to the use of free-fire zones, napalm, defoliants and jet planes. U.S. involvement in the area continually escalated until regular U.S. forces were directly fighting the Vietnam War in the next administration. The Kennedy Administration increased military support, but the South Vietnamese military was unable to make headway against the pro-independence Viet-Minh and Viet Cong forces. By July 1963, Kennedy faced a crisis in Vietnam. The Administration's response was to assist in the coup d'état of the Roman Catholic President of South Vietnam, Ngo Dinh Diem.[23] In 1963, South Vietnamese generals overthrew the Diem government, arresting Diem and later killing him (though the exact circumstances of his death remain unclear)[24] Kennedy sanctioned Diem's overthrow. One reason for the support was a fear that Diem might negotiate a neutralist coalition government which included Communists, as had occurred in Laos in 1962. Dean Rusk, Secretary of State, remarked "This kind of neutralism?€?is tantamount to surrender." Kennedy increased the number of U.S. military in Vietnam from 800 to 16,300. (My note: I think we have about 16,300 in Afghanistan now, for comparison purposes).
As for the Bay of Pigs... Kennedy ordered the attack and then withheld the necessary support that was promised to the Cuban freedom fighters. 1800 of them were taken prisoner, and JFK paid Cuba $53M to have them released. $53M doesn't sound like a lot, but 6 years later, the entire federal budget, including LBJ's grand social program spending and for a 500,000 troop war in Vietnam was $200M. As for the Cuban Missile Crisis... The USSR wouldn't have been so bold if it were Reagan in office. Khruschev and the others in power in the USSR saw JFK as an intellectual lightweight and ill equipped for the presidency and took advantage of it. Never in Man's history since we mastered the atomic bomb were we ever so close to complete and utter destruction of the world via nuclear WWW II. And JFK effectively surrendered Cuba to decades of abuse, poverty, and a dictatorial regime as well as surrendering our bases in Turkey to avoid devastation at the last minute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy A week later, he and Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev reached an agreement. Khrushchev agreed to remove the missiles subject to U.N. inspections if the U.S. publicly promised never to invade Cuba and quietly removed US missiles stationed in Turkey. Following this crisis, which brought the world closer to nuclear war than at any point before or since, Kennedy was more cautious in confronting the Soviet Union.
The Kennedys would have made Obama proud. Starting in 1960, a bunch of white and black people got together and rode (segregated) on buses together throughout the south. At every stop, they were met by the KKK and other nasty bigots and got the shit kicked out of them and worse. The police down there even arrested them a bunch of times. These people were HEROES of the first order in my book. Compare, say, to Ike who called out the National Guard to move aside the governor of Arkansas so black kids could attend the high school there. Oh yeah, that would be Bill Clinton's home town, of all places. So the freedom riders did their thing and the Kennedys followed the news and basically did nothing but sit on their hands. This is typical of their record on civil rights: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_ride On Wednesday morning, May 24, Freedom Riders boarded buses for the journey to Jackson MS. Surrounded by Highway Patrol and National Guard, the buses arrived in Jackson without incident, and the riders were immediately arrested when they tried to use the "white-only" facilities at the depot. In Montgomery, Freedom Riders including Yale University Chaplin William Sloane Coffin, Shuttlesworth, Abernathy, Wyatt Tee Walker, and others were similarly arrested for violating local segregation ordinances. This established a pattern followed by subsequent Freedom Rides in which they traveled to Jackson where they were arrested and jailed. The strategy became one of trying to fill the jails. Once the Jackson City and Hinds County jails were filled to overflowing, Freedom Riders were transferred to the infamous Parchman Penitentiary ("Parchman Farm"). There abusive treatment included placement in the Maximum Security Unit (Death Row), issuance of only underwear, no exercise, no mail, and, when Freedom Riders refused to stop singing Freedom Songs, they took away mattresses, sheets and toothbrushes and removed the screens from the windows. When the cell block became filled with mosquitoes, they hosed everyone down with DDT at 2 AM. The Kennedys called for a "cooling off period" and condemned the Rides as unpatriotic because they embarrassed the nation on the world stage. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">Attorney General Robert Kennedy — the chief law enforcement officer of the land — was quoted as saying that he "Does not feel that the Department of Justice can side with one group or the other in disputes over Constitutional rights."</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ Jul 5 2008, 02:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Jul 4 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Obama should not be the president because of many reasons but the main one is that he has no experience what so ever with foreign affairs, and would only take this country down with his bring the troop backs in 15 months crappy idea. VOTE 4 MCCAIN!!!</div> Someone knit Satan a sweater because I agree with a CK post! </div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jul 5 2008, 02:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nader for Prez, jokes.</div> Saturday he was at Bradley Airport (in Connecticut), where I work. I was at the gate so I missed him, I would have asked for an autograph at least. lol
lol, I wonder how much time he actually puts into trying to gain voters. I mean he really has absolutely no chance.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jul 5 2008, 12:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>lol, I wonder how much time he actually puts into trying to gain voters. I mean he really has absolutely no chance.</div> My fellow workers said that he was alone, and no one was paying attention to him. Poor fella.
Well to me "Terror", War, whatever you want to call it, is a huge reason why I'm not voting for McCain. I disagree immensely with his philosophy on War, and combined with moral issues, that certainly makes me lean towards Obama. I wouldn't mind sacrificing the "free market" or "experience" for a Dem president right now. General Clark sounded like a complete asshole recently, but I saw quite clearly what his point was. On another note, I was reading about Reagan's tenure in the White House, and I do indeed believe he handled our GDP very well. I know his methods can work as far as the economy is concerned, so I can see why the GOP likes Tax Cuts but that's not enough for me to vote for them (I would describe myself as a Libertarian-Liberal, for the record). I do think the Government needs to stay out of my way on various issues, but on Health Care Costs in America and such I disagree.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 5 2008, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well to me "Terror", War, whatever you want to call it, is a huge reason why I'm not voting for McCain. I disagree immensely with his philosophy on War, and combined with moral issues, that certainly makes me lean towards Obama.</div> Out of curiosity, what is McCain's philosophy on war to you?
Please don't mention Ronald Regan in the same breath as Barack Obama. Regan is quite possibly the best president this country has ever had whereas Obama if elected would be one of the worst. And I understand being able to speak well is a great asset to have in a president, but I'll pass on someone who speaks endlessly without any real substance to his speeches. Obama loves to grandstand about the things that are wrong with our current president and the country, but I've never heard him offer a solution to any of the problems he supposedly is so passionate about. I'm sorry, a little more than "It's time for a change" is required to get my vote.
