I posted this in another thread about Maggette, but I thought I'd start a new one. Basically, in my opinion Mullin has done a HELL of a job. After taking his lumps with Murphy/Dunleavy/Foyle/Fisher, he somehow managed to get rid of all those contracts one way or another. Then, IMO, he's drafted great, and made an AWESOME financial move by trading JRich for Wright. To me, it seemed as though he finally got it -- cap space is crucial in the NBA. IMO, Monta/Beans are more important than JRich ever was, and if he hadn't done that deal, we'd be in a totally different position right now. I think our roster is a DREAM right now. No albatross contracts. A TON of young potential stars. No unnecessary players signed to the roster. even the two vets -- Harrington and SJax, are bargains for their modest contracts (especially SJax, a 20pt scorer last year), and both could be moved easily if needed. Right now, this team is in the perfect position to set-up and build for the long-term. That's why I think it's so important that Mullin doesn't blow his chances by giving away a so-so contract to a mediocre player. If Maggette came cheap (like just a bit above the MLE) I guess that could turn out to be okay (especially if he maintained his level of production) , but any more $$ and I'd say no way. It's not like he's an all-star. And, with the FAs that are coming up in the next year or two, this league is going to be ALL about the cap space. I think Mully knows that and I think he's played his cards right, even if it means we don't immediately contend for the POs on paper this year. I don't want GS to be a "tiny window" team. What's the fun of having a shot at the POs if it's only for a year or two. When we do get the PO squad together, I want it to be a core that can take us back year after year. They're on the right track with Ellis/Beans. Those two could be around for the next 10 to 15 years. Now, with Marco, Wright, Perovic, Randolph and Hendrix, there are some interesting pieces, and I'd bet the bank that at least one of those joins the core to be a long-term PO franchise piece. That's why I like Henirich at PG, because he's young, has a ton of potential, and at least he's only 27 years old, which means he could be a part of the starting rotation long-term (if he panned out). Maggette could be a serviceable piece. He'll be 30 at the start of the season, so a 4 or 5 year deal would take him into the tail end of his career. But a big contract to him would mean no big contract to MUCH better players in a year or two. The potential star talent on this team, coupled with the ridiculous prospect of FA in the next 2 years, is just too much to make ANY mistakes on so-so deals. Even one mediocre contract could be enough to smother a team in 9th or 10th place in the West. Mullin, like every GM obviously, must do everything right, IMO, at maximizing the cap space. But it's differnt than years past. He was able to make up for Dunleavy/Foyle/Fisher?Murphy. Even one contract like that again, in the next year or so, could be much more hurtful than in years past because it could mean the difference between potentially signing a now all-star Anthony Randolph or letting the Suns nab him. It could mean the difference on losing out in bidding wars for top FAs like LeBron, Dirk, Wade, TMac, Kobe, Redd, Jefferson, Nash, Brandon Roy, Ginobli, Bosh, Millsap, Amare Stoudamire, and Deron Williams, whose contracts are all coming up in the next 2 years (unless they re-sign before then). With so many potential chances to land stars, giving away a mediocre deal could be devastating in the long term.
Great post, AO, I agree with just about everything you say. I also like Hinrich and although he has a long contract, it's really not that bad for his skill level, which Chicago is not fully utilizing right now. Only thing I worry about is that I don't think he's perfectly suited to Nellie's game because he's not a speed demon and freak athlete. I really want to know what's going on with Nelson, because like Baron before him, his either being here or not affects a lot of things. I really like BWright but I'm still a little skeptical whether he's going to be that #1 PF we need, especially if Nelson leaves and we move to a more traditional half-court offense. This team with Hinrich and Josh Smith would be very scary in another 1-2 years. PG: Hinrich, Ellis, (?) SG: Ellis, Azubuike, (?) SF: Jackson, Randolph, Azubuike PF: Smith, Wright, Randolph C: Biedrins, Wright, Smith, Perovic? I certainly wouldn't want to face that team. That's assuming Harrington is gone, which I think he will be shortly, especially if there's a Hinrich deal. Unfortunately Jackson will also probably be exiting shortly, I'm guessing in a late season deal this year to a contender, but hopefully we can get something for him.
I'm in agreement with most of your thoughts AO. About Maggette- I'm pretty much right with you. I'm not really intruiged by him but if he comes at a just-above-MLE-level contract then you have to sign him, right? IMO quality GMing is about getting good value. Corey Maggette is going to be 29 next season but a specimen of an athlete so I think he can still produce well into his 30's. As mentioned I believe in the other thread, he'll give you J-Rich-esque production (20 pts, 6 rebs) which is a steal at 6-7-8 mils a year. Hes averaged between 8.0 and 10.0 FTAs per game the last 5 seasons in a row. Hes not a star but he'd be a bargain. Also agree that Mullin has done a good job since the initial spending spree. Like you said, when Al Harrington's two remaining years is your worst contract you know you've probably got a pretty good cap situation. Also agree that theres no point giving the full MLE to some irrelevant role player who isn't going to lead us anywhere. I wouldn't mind signing Mags if we lost out on Brand because, like I said, he's a good value. However if we do lose out on Brand I'd probably prefer going 100% youth movement. Throw Wright, Beli, Hendrix, out there as legit rotation players (along with Monta, Beans, and Jack), even Randolph can get 10 mpg. They'll get incredibly valuable game experience, the team will have a better idea of which of our prospects are looking like they'll pan out and which ones look like they aren't going anywhere, and we'll probably net a top 10 draft pick. The sooner we throw these guys into the fire the sooner they'll contribute and hopefully we'll be back on our way to thep layoffs (maybe even contender status?). Like I said, I wouldn't be unhappy signing Mags but if we did then would Nellie try to win with Monta/Jack/Mags/Beans? Would we land another late lotto pick that ultimately isn't a franchise-changing player? If we don't get Brand I'd just prefer to commit to rebuilding instead of being a playoff hopeful in a west that figures to have 10 45+ win teams. BTW about Hinrich, IMO hes just paid too much to risk taking his contract. Even when he was playing well I don't tihnk hes worth what hes getting paid now and after last season? No thanks. Maybe if we had another gigantic, long term contract to throw back at them. Speaking of which though I see that Nocioni is on the block and I might inquire about him. I'd trade Al for him. Nocioni has 3 years left on his contract, frontloaded about 7-8 mils a year but theres a team option at year 3 (essentially its only one year longer than Harrington's two remaining years). Noc is actually similar to Al in that he can play both SF and PF, hits his 3's, but hes a tenacious defender, really likes to get under other guys' skins, good rebounder.
I agree AO. Getting Maggette would be awesome if we need an 18-20 ppg scorer who can be a Jrich type guy. I don't think Hinrich is overpaid at all. He had one bad season. He's productive and he's got intangibles. Defense, free throw shooting, leadership, etc.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Run BJM @ Jul 6 2008, 07:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Throw Wright, Beli, Hendrix, out there as legit rotation players (along with Monta, Beans, and Jack), even Randolph can get 10 mpg. They'll get incredibly valuable game experience, the team will have a better idea of which of our prospects are looking like they'll pan out and which ones look like they aren't going anywhere, and we'll probably net a top 10 draft pick. The sooner we throw these guys into the fire the sooner they'll contribute and hopefully we'll be back on our way to thep layoffs (maybe even contender status?). Like I said, I wouldn't be unhappy signing Mags but if we did then would Nellie try to win with Monta/Jack/Mags/Beans? Would we land another late lotto pick that ultimately isn't a franchise-changing player?</div> Excellent point Run. If GS get Mags, then maybe Nelson will "try to win" instead of develop the young guys? I hadn't thought about it like that -- that could be one more reason not to give anyone other than a superstar a contract. Not only would his signing take up cap space, it could also mean the delayed development of the young guys (Belli especially comes to mind at the SG). Hmmm.... I don't like the sound of that...
If we got Mags, I don't think it's enough to win with him in place of Baron. So Nelly ain't going to overuse him and if he does... if anything, he'll overuse him at small forward, not shooting guard. If we got Mags, his sole purpose is to score so guys like Ellis, Biedrins, Sjax don't have to deal with the pressure of having to score beyond their comfort level. In fact, to build a strong starting five you need guys who are reliable in case players like Marco don't come through or there are injuries to rookie players who can't go. That's why I'm hoping that we push for some 16-18ppg scorers who can do many things like an Sjax player would. If we get a bunch of these guys who can play both ends of the floor, it helps Monta Ellis' point guard game a little, it helps Biedrins' out defensively, it might open up Brandan Wright more if the other 4 guys can score well or move the ball. Now we know Mags doesn't really pass that well, but he's a finisher and we need finishers. Especially, if we're running in the open court and need some energy guys. I swear if we had Mags (Slashing/Scoring) + Ricky Davis (Midrange game/Slashing) + Earl or CJ Watson as Monta's backup, this team's young core would really benefit from adding those two players + a role playing backup point. It would fit Nelly's lineup and Nelson knows he can't rely on Mags or Ricky D to take away the things that Wright and Belinelli are good at. By adding scorers who can pose a variety of threats, it just makes the passing game a lot easier because defenses would have to play more honestly or double team somebody. So there are opportunities for making great plays by having Wright play down low or up high or having Belinelli run the plays a la Manu Ginobilli/Mike Miller at point. I feel if we take away such threats, then Ellis runs into more trouble, Belinelli faces more pressure, and Biedrins/Wright never get the ball because their perimeter teammates aren't good enough. It's like the Chinese national team. No good guards, means the team doesn't get the most out of their big men.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Jul 7 2008, 07:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If we got Mags, I don't think it's enough to win with him in place of Baron. So Nelly ain't going to overuse him and if he does... if anything, he'll overuse him at small forward, not shooting guard. If we got Mags, his sole purpose is to score so guys like Ellis, Biedrins, Sjax don't have to deal with the pressure of having to score beyond their comfort level. In fact, to build a strong starting five you need guys who are reliable in case players like Marco don't come through or there are injuries to rookie players who can't go. That's why I'm hoping that we push for some 16-18ppg scorers who can do many things like an Sjax player would. If we get a bunch of these guys who can play both ends of the floor, it helps Monta Ellis' point guard game a little, it helps Biedrins' out defensively, it might open up Brandan Wright more if the other 4 guys can score well or move the ball. Now we know Mags doesn't really pass that well, but he's a finisher and we need finishers. Especially, if we're running in the open court and need some energy guys. I swear if we had Mags (Slashing/Scoring) + Ricky Davis (Midrange game/Slashing) + Earl or CJ Watson as Monta's backup, this team's young core would really benefit from adding those two players + a role playing backup point. It would fit Nelly's lineup and Nelson knows he can't rely on Mags or Ricky D to take away the things that Wright and Belinelli are good at. By adding scorers who can pose a variety of threats, it just makes the passing game a lot easier because defenses would have to play more honestly or double team somebody. So there are opportunities for making great plays by having Wright play down low or up high or having Belinelli run the plays a la Manu Ginobilli/Mike Miller at point. I feel if we take away such threats, then Ellis runs into more trouble, Belinelli faces more pressure, and Biedrins/Wright never get the ball because their perimeter teammates aren't good enough. It's like the Chinese national team. No good guards, means the team doesn't get the most out of their big men.</div> No Ricky Davis, please. That guy is pure filler for a bad team; when you need someone to score 20 just to break 70 for the game. I think Mags is close to that too. But at a mid-level okay, nothing more. I'm with Alley Oop, the Warriors are positioned nicely and let's not get desperate. They may not seem so attractive right now, but watch when Monta and Andris and Brandon blossom, then they will be looked upon just like the Blazers right now, a cool young developing team. Josh Smith and Igoudala are not the final piece. Maybe someone like Dirk becomes disenchanted in the next year or two, that's when you spring into action. Do not go for these second tier, potential All-Star types, (although I like Igoudala and how he plays, but he's not a final piece.) Love Nocioni, maybe get him and Hinrich together, now you are talking. Hinrich was the leader of a second round playoff team two years ago, he's not some unproven scrub.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (philsmith75 @ Jul 8 2008, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Jul 7 2008, 07:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If we got Mags, I don't think it's enough to win with him in place of Baron. So Nelly ain't going to overuse him and if he does... if anything, he'll overuse him at small forward, not shooting guard. If we got Mags, his sole purpose is to score so guys like Ellis, Biedrins, Sjax don't have to deal with the pressure of having to score beyond their comfort level. In fact, to build a strong starting five you need guys who are reliable in case players like Marco don't come through or there are injuries to rookie players who can't go. That's why I'm hoping that we push for some 16-18ppg scorers who can do many things like an Sjax player would. If we get a bunch of these guys who can play both ends of the floor, it helps Monta Ellis' point guard game a little, it helps Biedrins' out defensively, it might open up Brandan Wright more if the other 4 guys can score well or move the ball. Now we know Mags doesn't really pass that well, but he's a finisher and we need finishers. Especially, if we're running in the open court and need some energy guys. I swear if we had Mags (Slashing/Scoring) + Ricky Davis (Midrange game/Slashing) + Earl or CJ Watson as Monta's backup, this team's young core would really benefit from adding those two players + a role playing backup point. It would fit Nelly's lineup and Nelson knows he can't rely on Mags or Ricky D to take away the things that Wright and Belinelli are good at. By adding scorers who can pose a variety of threats, it just makes the passing game a lot easier because defenses would have to play more honestly or double team somebody. So there are opportunities for making great plays by having Wright play down low or up high or having Belinelli run the plays a la Manu Ginobilli/Mike Miller at point. I feel if we take away such threats, then Ellis runs into more trouble, Belinelli faces more pressure, and Biedrins/Wright never get the ball because their perimeter teammates aren't good enough. It's like the Chinese national team. No good guards, means the team doesn't get the most out of their big men.</div> No Ricky Davis, please. That guy is pure filler for a bad team; when you need someone to score 20 just to break 70 for the game. I think Mags is close to that too. But at a mid-level okay, nothing more. I'm with Alley Oop, the Warriors are positioned nicely and let's not get desperate. They may not seem so attractive right now, but watch when Monta and Andris and Brandon blossom, then they will be looked upon just like the Blazers right now, a cool young developing team. Josh Smith and Igoudala are not the final piece. Maybe someone like Dirk becomes disenchanted in the next year or two, that's when you spring into action. Do not go for these second tier, potential All-Star types, (although I like Igoudala and how he plays, but he's not a final piece.) Love Nocioni, maybe get him and Hinrich together, now you are talking. Hinrich was the leader of a second round playoff team two years ago, he's not some unproven scrub. </div> Yup, no Ricky Davis. He's all stats with some above average athleticism.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlleyOop @ Jul 8 2008, 09:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Apparently, the Warriors just got DESPERATE, giving Mags 10 mils a year for 5 years? What a waste.</div> I'm with you. I like Maggette, but we could have used that money at a more meaningful position. Where is Maggette going to play? I don't doubt Nellie will get the best out of him but still...we still have gaping holes at PG and PF, even though Brandon Wright should have a good year. We should have just waited... Poor move by the Warriors UNLESS this is part of some sign-and-trade.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 8 2008, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm with you. I like Maggette, but we could have used that money at a more meaningful position. Where is Maggette going to play? I don't doubt Nellie will get the best out of him but still...we still have gaping holes at PG and PF, even though Brandon Wright should have a good year. We should have just waited... Poor move by the Warriors UNLESS this is part of some sign-and-trade.</div> Yes, I would be very surprised if this is the final move by Mullin, this lineup has some bright spots but just doesn't look right at all. They are now just stacked with small forwards / big guards, including Maggette and Jackson (both starters...huh?), Azubuike, and Randolph. Meanwhile at PF, Harrington is disgruntled and a very flawed PF, and while I'm excited to see Wright playing more minutes, I can't see him starting this year. And of course a little something called PG, which we really have none of. So I think something else is coming, maybe Hinrich but who knows. Harrington (+ draft picks) for Jamaal Crawford and David Lee has been tossed around, that's defeinitely something worth looking into if it's possible.
Mullin's dumb. He overpaid for Maggette and Turiaf. I wonder if he will sign anyone else to a contract from the free agency pool now. Did we even sign Monta or Andris yet? We better not be wasting all the money before someone offers them something before the Warriors cant afford them.
Now Turiaf, too? If true, Mullin's had a double-dipping of mediocre deals. Go ahead and sh!t that cap money away, Mully!
We got the mediocre deals because it appears the top free agents don't want to come to Golden State. They still think Golden State sucks without Baron and they're right.
Maybe the Warriors problem is that no FA knows exactly where Golden State is. Our market should be tearing it up when it comes to FA's. We don't see the Raiders, Niners, Giants, A's having this problem. It's probably our f-ing ownership again. Then again, If we could have kept Baron and we wind up with Mags and Turiaf to show for it... that's a crappy front office job of overvaluing their leverage. We just lost a near-franchise player for a scorer who isn't a star and a role playing power forward center tweener who doesn't score at all.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Jul 9 2008, 05:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe the Warriors problem is that no FA knows exactly where Golden State is. Our market should be tearing it up when it comes to FA's. We don't see the Raiders, Niners, Giants, A's having this problem. It's probably our f-ing ownership again. Then again, If we could have kept Baron and we wind up with Mags and Turiaf to show for it... that's a crappy front office job of overvaluing their leverage. We just lost a near-franchise player for a scorer who isn't a star and a role playing power forward center tweener who doesn't score at all.</div> LOL. I'm not going to blame Mullin. I think he had a good Plan A: Brand, Mags and Turiaf. Brand just didn't work out. We'd be celebrating that right now. I'm not sure what Plan B is. Maybe he can convince Josh Smith or Emeka Okafor and send them a map and directions. Better yet go over and pick them up with his posse in the Lear Jet.
I also don't blame Mullin entirely for these signings. Do you honestly think that Mullin is really the one who negotiates these money amounts? No way...we have other guys in the front office that decide these things like the owner (douche) and lawyers. I bet Nellie has more say in these money amounts than Mullin. I bet Mullin is more of a scout and intermediary between players, coaches, and front office people.
Until we're in the front office we can't get too carried away. Obviously these deals were not ideal, but it's something. It's better than St. Jean (under managing) and better than Isiah Thomas (over managing). Mags was probably a player that Nelly coveted. Mags is like a super-Pietrus, maybe on par with Jrich on some levels. I think we could use a Jrich type of guy again. Unless the age of the power guard is totally dying out, I'd want that 2/3 mismatch on our team that looks to go to the hole (provided we have a guard-like small forward to manage things like a true shooting guard would like acting as a secondary point guard and spacing the floor with well placed perimeter shots). and... Check. We do. Sjax at shooting guard. Mags guarding small forward wouldn't be as bad as Mags guarding shooting guard (although he could play some shooting guard on offense based on his skill). He might even play a backup role if Belinelli becomes super good enough to start. A team like the Warriors just can't give up, we got to keep on trying to be a winning organization. If we give up, it could be another 10 or 11 years before we see the playoffs. This roster could be temporary anyway if we pick up the players that other teams would want to trade for and also players that we actually want for ourselves. If Mags is here for 2 or 3 of those 5 years. No problem. I just thought guys like Fisher, Dunleavy and Foyle were practically untradeable. And Fisher and Foyle we ended up getting the least amount since we traded Fisher for something like 4 Jazz guys and we bought out Foyle. At least Dunleavy got us Harrington or Sjax and Dunleavy's doing well on Indiana.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Jul 9 2008, 06:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Until we're in the front office we can't get too carried away. Obviously these deals were not ideal, but it's something. It's better than St. Jean (under managing) and better than Isiah Thomas (over managing). Mags was probably a player that Nelly coveted. Mags is like a super-Pietrus, maybe on par with Jrich on some levels. I think we could use a Jrich type of guy again. Unless the age of the power guard is totally dying out, I'd want that 2/3 mismatch on our team that looks to go to the hole (provided we have a guard-like small forward to manage things like a true shooting guard would like acting as a secondary point guard and spacing the floor with well placed perimeter shots). and... Check. We do. Sjax at shooting guard. Mags guarding small forward wouldn't be as bad as Mags guarding shooting guard (although he could play some shooting guard on offense based on his skill). He might even play a backup role if Belinelli becomes super good enough to start. A team like the Warriors just can't give up, we got to keep on trying to be a winning organization. If we give up, it could be another 10 or 11 years before we see the playoffs. This roster could be temporary anyway if we pick up the players that other teams would want to trade for and also players that we actually want for ourselves. If Mags is here for 2 or 3 of those 5 years. No problem. I just thought guys like Fisher, Dunleavy and Foyle were practically untradeable. And Fisher and Foyle we ended up getting the least amount since we traded Fisher for something like 4 Jazz guys and we bought out Foyle. At least Dunleavy got us Harrington or Sjax and Dunleavy's doing well on Indiana.</div> I agree wholeheartedly, long term wise. Look at what a transformation that Mully has done in the past 5 years. People continually fail to look long term, its always short term. The core is going to be stabilized once Ellis and Biedrins are locked up. Those guys deserve it, they've made progress for the past two years, not just some end of one season when teams are playing out the string. They were huge parts of the run in '07 and '08 and stood out. Are they championship? Who knows but at least they are battle tested going up against the best in the league and excelled (Ellis shooting 60% for a month; Biedrins holding his own against Duncan individually). There remains great flexibility, even with the signing of Maggette; SJax is locked up at a reasonable rate, there's no one else long term and Turiaf is a mild contract. There's also young talent to develop, Bellinelli, Wright Randolph (maybe Hendrix, let's see). Even Azubuike. You cannot expect those types of players to come in and immediately star, did not happen with Chris Paul or Deron Williams.
