<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thoth @ Jul 21 2008, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As I said, I left the theatre Friday not knowing what to think. It really wasn't until yesterday that the subtlety and brillance begin to sink in. Now, I know I'll have to see it several more times to fully appreciate it. Iron Man was great movie and nothing to be ashamed of but it was a typical superhero movie. Note to Sam Raimi, Stan Lee, Marvel, Universal Pictures; Don't even attempt to make a 4th Spiderman. #3 was the worst superhero movie ever (worse than Hulk 2003) and was more like a teen drama I see on the WB when channel surfing.</div> Frank Miller's influence is astounding. The impact on the public is felt.
Spoiler Alert: <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE</span> Sorry...I couldn't resist.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Jul 22 2008, 02:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 22 2008, 02:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Jul 22 2008, 01:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just got back from watching it. Here are some thoughts (don't know how to spoiler block them, so I'll type them white): <span style="color:#fffacd"> Batman makes a big deal about how people are good because they don't blow each other up, and that the Joker is alone. My take on it is that most people would have blown up the other boat- before the Joker came along, traumatized the city and made it a community of people who had to watch out for each other. The Joker made them good. Another bit I found interesting is that the Joker knew who he was (even though nobody else did) through and through, whereas the Batman was completely confused, taking advice from mobsters and continually second-guessing himself to the point that he knocked himself out when he has the chance to take out the Joker (hadn't seen that one in his repertoire of moves before). The Joker's just on top of his game, and I loved his getting himself arrested on purpose. But it was interesting that his take on Batman is so off (he thinks Batman wants to be a cop). Lastly, I thought the movie relied too much on the comic book history to explain Two-Face. They certainly didn't show any kind of motivation for the downfall of Harvey Dent (and even when they hinted at it, where he was flipping the coin on the tied-up bad guy, they made sure to let us know that kid was never in any danger) and instead just excused themselves because we all know Harvey Dent becomes Two-Face.</span></div> More spoilers in retort: <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Yes, I did not think the Two-Face mini-arch was that fluid or fleshed out, it kind of seemed smashed in there. I'd like to see a slower spiral downwards into insanity. I thought the last third of the movie was a bit too much, and that the convict boat should have definitely been blown up, regardless of the way the Joker brought together people in Gotham.</span> </div> Ohhh, that's how you do the spoiler blocking. Anyway, <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> why do you think the convict boat should have been blown up? To my way of thinking, which I admit isn't necessarily supported by the movie, the convicts should have blown the other boat up - they could have rushed the guards, who weren't that keen on stopping them anyway - but the other boat got lucky that the most charismatic convict who more or less led them turned out to have found god, or whatever. </span> </div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Simple, the guards on the convict boat control the detonating-switch, they could have kept it from the convicts long enough for the civilians to blow them up. Are you telling me, that if you had a beautiful and charming wife, along with a kid, you're going to risk them getting blown up for a boat full of mostly murderers? How do you know the Joker won't blow up both of the boats anyway? He's a pretty dangerous guy, and it was quite lucky that Batman just stopped him at the last moment. The convicts should indeed have been blown the hell up, nothing personal. :] </span> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Mamba @ Jul 22 2008, 02:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Two Face's rise and fall was done masterfully by Nolan, I didn't think it felt rushed at all. </span></div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Dent's position in the movie was fluid in the beginning, I'm just talking about his "fall". To me it felt that Nolan wasn't such a great director towards the end. It felt like he was conscious of the already long film and needed to make some cuts. Also, I believe there was a plot hole when the Joker told Batman he could only "choose one". I don't understand why the Joker would offer himself to Two-Face like that in the hospital either, he is more than capable of creating more chaos. His speech about it "not being personal", and being Gordon's fault did not make much sense to me. Further, he also mentioned how much fun it was to screw around with Batman. I would have liked to have seen abstract scenes of what Dent's mind was going through, you know, some real artsy kind of "sadistic, dream-like" scene. I'm just saying that could have been done better, and I didn't like the way the Joker was kind of forgotten towards the end. I've said this before, but I felt the last fight was a bit too short and not that melodramatic. Regardless of what I say, I think it was a good film, I'm just judging it on "G.O.A.T." standards.</span>
I will say that although I think you guys are reading too much in to the cat reference, <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I do think Rachel's death allows for the character in the third film, as it allows Nolan to explore Batman's love-loss</span>
By the way, did anything happen after/during the credits? I didn't have the time to sit through all those names.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 22 2008, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>By the way, did anything happen after/during the credits? I didn't have the time to sit through all those names.</div> haha I wanted to wait til the end too, but after that 3 hour movie nothing was stopping me from going to take a leak.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 22 2008, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Jul 22 2008, 02:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 22 2008, 02:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Jul 22 2008, 01:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just got back from watching it. Here are some thoughts (don't know how to spoiler block them, so I'll type them white): <span style="color:#fffacd"> Batman makes a big deal about how people are good because they don't blow each other up, and that the Joker is alone. My take on it is that most people would have blown up the other boat- before the Joker came along, traumatized the city and made it a community of people who had to watch out for each other. The Joker made them good. Another bit I found interesting is that the Joker knew who he was (even though nobody else did) through and through, whereas the Batman was completely confused, taking advice from mobsters and continually second-guessing himself to the point that he knocked himself out when he has the chance to take out the Joker (hadn't seen that one in his repertoire of moves before). The Joker's just on top of his game, and I loved his getting himself arrested on purpose. But it was interesting that his take on Batman is so off (he thinks Batman wants to be a cop). Lastly, I thought the movie relied too much on the comic book history to explain Two-Face. They certainly didn't show any kind of motivation for the downfall of Harvey Dent (and even when they hinted at it, where he was flipping the coin on the tied-up bad guy, they made sure to let us know that kid was never in any danger) and instead just excused themselves because we all know Harvey Dent becomes Two-Face.</span></div> More spoilers in retort: <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Yes, I did not think the Two-Face mini-arch was that fluid or fleshed out, it kind of seemed smashed in there. I'd like to see a slower spiral downwards into insanity. I thought the last third of the movie was a bit too much, and that the convict boat should have definitely been blown up, regardless of the way the Joker brought together people in Gotham.</span> </div> Ohhh, that's how you do the spoiler blocking. Anyway, <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> why do you think the convict boat should have been blown up? To my way of thinking, which I admit isn't necessarily supported by the movie, the convicts should have blown the other boat up - they could have rushed the guards, who weren't that keen on stopping them anyway - but the other boat got lucky that the most charismatic convict who more or less led them turned out to have found god, or whatever. </span> </div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Simple, the guards on the convict boat control the detonating-switch, they could have kept it from the convicts long enough for the civilians to blow them up. Are you telling me, that if you had a beautiful and charming wife, along with a kid, you're going to risk them getting blown up for a boat full of mostly murderers? How do you know the Joker won't blow up both of the boats anyway? He's a pretty dangerous guy, and it was quite lucky that Batman just stopped him at the last moment. The convicts should indeed have been blown the hell up, nothing personal. :] </span> </div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> that's, i think, my point. you and i would have easily taken the thing and blown up the other boat, guards and all (although i would have voted no so as to falsely appease my conscience confident that the yeses would win). but these people, after all the joker's done and all the death and destruction, didn't. maybe they'd seen too much of it already. something went through that guy's mind to change it, because when he stood up he was just like us. </span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Jul 22 2008, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 22 2008, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Jul 22 2008, 02:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 22 2008, 02:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Jul 22 2008, 01:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just got back from watching it. Here are some thoughts (don't know how to spoiler block them, so I'll type them white): <span style="color:#fffacd"> Batman makes a big deal about how people are good because they don't blow each other up, and that the Joker is alone. My take on it is that most people would have blown up the other boat- before the Joker came along, traumatized the city and made it a community of people who had to watch out for each other. The Joker made them good. Another bit I found interesting is that the Joker knew who he was (even though nobody else did) through and through, whereas the Batman was completely confused, taking advice from mobsters and continually second-guessing himself to the point that he knocked himself out when he has the chance to take out the Joker (hadn't seen that one in his repertoire of moves before). The Joker's just on top of his game, and I loved his getting himself arrested on purpose. But it was interesting that his take on Batman is so off (he thinks Batman wants to be a cop). Lastly, I thought the movie relied too much on the comic book history to explain Two-Face. They certainly didn't show any kind of motivation for the downfall of Harvey Dent (and even when they hinted at it, where he was flipping the coin on the tied-up bad guy, they made sure to let us know that kid was never in any danger) and instead just excused themselves because we all know Harvey Dent becomes Two-Face.</span></div> More spoilers in retort: <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Yes, I did not think the Two-Face mini-arch was that fluid or fleshed out, it kind of seemed smashed in there. I'd like to see a slower spiral downwards into insanity. I thought the last third of the movie was a bit too much, and that the convict boat should have definitely been blown up, regardless of the way the Joker brought together people in Gotham.</span> </div> Ohhh, that's how you do the spoiler blocking. Anyway, <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> why do you think the convict boat should have been blown up? To my way of thinking, which I admit isn't necessarily supported by the movie, the convicts should have blown the other boat up - they could have rushed the guards, who weren't that keen on stopping them anyway - but the other boat got lucky that the most charismatic convict who more or less led them turned out to have found god, or whatever. </span> </div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Simple, the guards on the convict boat control the detonating-switch, they could have kept it from the convicts long enough for the civilians to blow them up. Are you telling me, that if you had a beautiful and charming wife, along with a kid, you're going to risk them getting blown up for a boat full of mostly murderers? How do you know the Joker won't blow up both of the boats anyway? He's a pretty dangerous guy, and it was quite lucky that Batman just stopped him at the last moment. The convicts should indeed have been blown the hell up, nothing personal. :] </span> </div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> that's, i think, my point. you and i would have easily taken the thing and blown up the other boat, guards and all (although i would have voted no so as to falsely appease my conscience confident that the yeses would win). but these people, after all the joker's done and all the death and destruction, didn't. maybe they'd seen too much of it already. something went through that guy's mind to change it, because when he stood up he was just like us. </span> </div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I think making sure your family continues to live over scum is priority #1, whether one is tired of the Joker or not. I'm sure there would be people who vote "no", but that would be a minority. What happened was too serendipitous.</span>
<span style="color:#FFFFFF">I guess I would be part of the minority then, since I'm not one who believes that I should kill others in order to live on. And if i were on the citizen boat, I would vote "no" not only because of that but also of the possibility that the Joker was lying and that the device might set off the bomb on the ship I am on. What happened with the ships may have been unrealistic but I for one am glad that neither one got blown up. Hell, one of those ships may have been full of criminals but they are still human beings goddamnit And i think the fall of Dent seems pretty logical if you think about it. When he figured out Rachel was the next target he fumed with rage and was about to kill a man. More or less, he felt he could not live on without her. And then when she died, it was no surprise that he was so angry he could be manipulated. The Joker just gave him that extra push. The Joker was able to convince Dent that the cops and Batman would put looking for Gotham's "white knight" before some lawyer he loved. Got to remember that Dent never knew the full situation and the fact that Batman was looking for Rachel first, not him. The Joker was able to figure out that Batman had some affection for Rachel and assumed he would look for her(this was pretty much confirmed during the interrogation scene). With that information, he was able to lead Batman in the wrong direction.</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Jul 26 2008, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="color:#FFFFFF">I guess I would be part of the minority then, since I'm not one who believes that I should kill others in order to live on. And if i were on the citizen boat, I would vote "no" not only because of that but also of the possibility that the Joker was lying and that the device might set off the bomb on the ship I am on. What happened with the ships may have been unrealistic but I for one am glad that neither one got blown up. Hell, one of those ships may have been full of criminals but they are still human beings goddamnit And i think the fall of Dent seems pretty logical if you think about it. When he figured out Rachel was the next target he fumed with rage and was about to kill a man. More or less, he felt he could not live on without her. And then when she died, it was no surprise that he was so angry he could be manipulated. The Joker just gave him that extra push. The Joker was able to convince Dent that the cops and Batman would put looking for Gotham's "white knight" before some lawyer he loved. Got to remember that Dent never knew the full situation and the fact that Batman was looking for Rachel first, not him. The Joker was able to figure out that Batman had some affection for Rachel and assumed he would look for her(this was pretty much confirmed during the interrogation scene). With that information, he was able to lead Batman in the wrong direction.</span></div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well it's not about being part of the minority or not. The point is what makes a film realistic, or too tacky (now If Batman had other types of supernatural powers, the direction of the film would be different and I might buy this). You can vote no, but you would know that the other boat is still screwed. If this is supposed to be a Batman (not Anime) movie either blow up the other boat or just have the Joker play it off as a huge prank to piss people off. However, the Joker was serious, and he was indeed going to blow up both ships until some BS happened about the Batman stopping him just a few seconds before. It wasn't handled well in my opinion, and it made the last fight with the Joker kind of bore me. If the Batman was going to stop the Joker, it should have been before the midnight time limit, and in a more interesting fashion (Wow, dogs attacking Batman? Who cares). In the interrogation scene, when the Joker told Batman he could "only pick one", I feel that he has no idea what he's talking about. He could have told the Batman that it will be a close call, but otherwise what he said didn't make sense. Gordon and his cops did look for Rachel, and Harvey knew this in the end as well. The Batman is that much faster in his vehicle/bike? It doesn't seem so, he just knows how to evade people well when he needs to, and knows how to hide from the police/etc. I mean if it really is about speed, Gordon or someone could have ridden a motorcycle and gotten to Rachel a minute before, making all the difference. These kind of things don't seem to be explained. The Joker asking Harvey to kill him seemed to go against his goals as well (since he has so much fun with Batman, and has no idea if Harvey will turn out to be a Super Psycho like him). The way Harvey went about killing his victims was kind of bland to me, it could have been done a bit more artistically and that part should have been fleshed out a little more (his evil arch seems to go by so quickly). The dialogue was boring to me at various points, all this keeps the film from being historic.</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 26 2008, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well it's not about being part of the minority or not. The point is what makes a film realistic, or too tacky (now If Batman had other types of supernatural powers, the direction of the film would be different and I might buy this). You can vote no, but you would know that the other boat is still screwed. If this is supposed to be a Batman (not Anime) movie either blow up the other boat or just have the Joker play it off as a huge prank to piss people off. However, the Joker was serious, and he was indeed going to blow up both ships until some BS happened about the Batman stopping him just a few seconds before. It wasn't handled well in my opinion, and it made the last fight with the Joker kind of bore me. If the Batman was going to stop the Joker, it should have been before the midnight time limit, and in a more interesting fashion (Wow, dogs attacking Batman? Who cares). </span></div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> The Joker had the public so terrified, that they believed what he said, regardless. They knew he was going to blow something up. Dogs were interesting, because they are blindly loyal. Remember how the bank robbery went down. Everyone was out for themselves, and at the end of it, the Joker was the only one of the robbers to jump into the getaway bus. Also, dogs have a keen sense of smell, which is good when your opponent can sneak up on you from anywhere. The Joker seemed to have all his bases covered. </span> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>In the interrogation scene, when the Joker told Batman he could "only pick one", I feel that he has no idea what he's talking about. He could have told the Batman that it will be a close call, but otherwise what he said didn't make sense. Gordon and his cops did look for Rachel, and Harvey knew this in the end as well. The Batman is that much faster in his vehicle/bike? It doesn't seem so, he just knows how to evade people well when he needs to, and knows how to hide from the police/etc. I mean if it really is about speed, Gordon or someone could have ridden a motorcycle and gotten to Rachel a minute before, making all the difference. These kind of things don't seem to be explained. </span></div><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Also, the cops already have squad cars driving around every area of a city, or at least closer to the scene that Gordon was. They aren't all sitting at the police station all night. Yeah, the police could certainly have been on the scene faster than Batman. </span> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> The Joker asking Harvey to kill him seemed to go against his goals as well (since he has so much fun with Batman, and has no idea if Harvey will turn out to be a Super Psycho like him). The way Harvey went about killing his victims was kind of bland to me, it could have been done a bit more artistically and that part should have been fleshed out a little more (his evil arch seems to go by so quickly). The dialogue was boring to me at various points, all this keeps the film from being historic.</span></div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Did the Joker load the gun? I didn't notice. If they made the kill seems more graphic, the movie might have had to get a different rating. I noticed that they never got real gorey with any of the kills. Often, they would swing the camera to a different look while someone would pull the trigger or slash someone at close range. Harvey killing people in cold blood was crazy enough for me. They had built him up as such a good person up till that point. It was a complete flip for him. We kind of expect that the Joker will be killing people, so they made his murders more interesting. </span>
My thoughts: Regarding the boat situation- <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I think you guys are forgetting the fact that people were afraid to 'pull the trigger' because they didn't trust the Joker to be true to his word. Remember that the Joker misinformed Batman when he told him that Rachel was at the location where Dent really was. Granted, I don't think the general public had knowledge of this particular piece of information but its certainly in the back of the audience' mind and assuming the public did have knowledge of the Joker then its safe to say they may have feared for their own lives if they were to press the button. It certainly seems logical that the Joker would tell the people that their detonator was for the other ship but in reality it was for their own ship- for the Joker to prove a point about human nature.</span> As for the Joker in the hospital- <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>He wanted Dent to kill him because he believed it would have screwed with people's hope. Throughout the movie the Joker seems to be trying to rip down everything that people find hope in. He also generally shows that he doesn't care whether he lives or dies and actually would take pleasure in having Batman or Dent kill him and in doing so break their moral code not to kill. The Joker seemed to believe that having the golden boy, Harvey Dent kill him would "go against 'the plan'" and thus cause more chaos and, more importantly, it would have corrupted the public's white knight. The Joker knew Dent was emotional after Rachel died and he successfully convinced Dent that he was "just a dog" (a term and theme that comes up multiple times throughout the movie) and that Dent should really be mad at the "schemers". IMO this is an understandable explanation as to why Dent goes on the killing spree but not a very good one, as someone else mentioned before Dent's spiral wasn't that well done. So in regard to Joker's "goal" that huevon referenced I think this scene did fit his goals. Hell even in this same scene he said hes not a guy with a plan, he just "does" stuff as it comes to him. His ultimate goal as I understand it is to destroy the public's hope, tear down the "heroes", and as Alfred said "some men just want to watch the world burn"- that line isn't in there by coincidence. The Joker repeatedly wanted to be killed by Batman just because he wanted Batman to go against his one rule (the "hit me part", he was laughing during the interrogation scene, and laughed as he was being thrown off the building). His goal isn't just to mess with Batman- its to keep pushing the public (and the heroes) to do something 'immoral' or just generally sinister. </span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Jul 31 2008, 01:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 26 2008, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well it's not about being part of the minority or not. The point is what makes a film realistic, or too tacky (now If Batman had other types of supernatural powers, the direction of the film would be different and I might buy this). You can vote no, but you would know that the other boat is still screwed. If this is supposed to be a Batman (not Anime) movie either blow up the other boat or just have the Joker play it off as a huge prank to piss people off. However, the Joker was serious, and he was indeed going to blow up both ships until some BS happened about the Batman stopping him just a few seconds before. It wasn't handled well in my opinion, and it made the last fight with the Joker kind of bore me. If the Batman was going to stop the Joker, it should have been before the midnight time limit, and in a more interesting fashion (Wow, dogs attacking Batman? Who cares). </span></div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> The Joker had the public so terrified, that they believed what he said, regardless. They knew he was going to blow something up. Dogs were interesting, because they are blindly loyal. Remember how the bank robbery went down. Everyone was out for themselves, and at the end of it, the Joker was the only one of the robbers to jump into the getaway bus. Also, dogs have a keen sense of smell, which is good when your opponent can sneak up on you from anywhere. The Joker seemed to have all his bases covered. </span></div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> The Dogs have a good sense of smell but they're not formidable opponents, they're more like a nuisance. I don't think they belonged at the end of an epic movie like this one. The civilians on the boat must realize that they are now probably ****ed. Either they blow up the other boat, or if they fear the trigger will actually blow up their ship and don't do anything, the Joker will just blow them up for not following orders. There is little reason to not pull that trigger.</span> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>In the interrogation scene, when the Joker told Batman he could "only pick one", I feel that he has no idea what he's talking about. He could have told the Batman that it will be a close call, but otherwise what he said didn't make sense. Gordon and his cops did look for Rachel, and Harvey knew this in the end as well. The Batman is that much faster in his vehicle/bike? It doesn't seem so, he just knows how to evade people well when he needs to, and knows how to hide from the police/etc. I mean if it really is about speed, Gordon or someone could have ridden a motorcycle and gotten to Rachel a minute before, making all the difference. These kind of things don't seem to be explained. </span></div><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Also, the cops already have squad cars driving around every area of a city, or at least closer to the scene that Gordon was. They aren't all sitting at the police station all night. Yeah, the police could certainly have been on the scene faster than Batman. </span></div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Indeed, this just makes his comment about only saving "one", a bigger plot hole to me.</span> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> The Joker asking Harvey to kill him seemed to go against his goals as well (since he has so much fun with Batman, and has no idea if Harvey will turn out to be a Super Psycho like him). The way Harvey went about killing his victims was kind of bland to me, it could have been done a bit more artistically and that part should have been fleshed out a little more (his evil arch seems to go by so quickly). The dialogue was boring to me at various points, all this keeps the film from being historic.</span></div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Did the Joker load the gun? I didn't notice. If they made the kill seems more graphic, the movie might have had to get a different rating. I noticed that they never got real gorey with any of the kills. Often, they would swing the camera to a different look while someone would pull the trigger or slash someone at close range. Harvey killing people in cold blood was crazy enough for me. They had built him up as such a good person up till that point. It was a complete flip for him. We kind of expect that the Joker will be killing people, so they made his murders more interesting. </span> </div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Alright, you have a good point about the PG-13 rating they were aiming for, at the same time the Joker finished off his enemies in a more fascinating manner, while staying within the guidelines. They built him up well as a "good" person, it is his downfall that is not so logical or interesting to me. He certainly has the right look for a villain though. :]</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Run BJM @ Jul 31 2008, 02:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My thoughts: Regarding the boat situation- <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I think you guys are forgetting the fact that people were afraid to 'pull the trigger' because they didn't trust the Joker to be true to his word. Remember that the Joker misinformed Batman when he told him that Rachel was at the location where Dent really was. Granted, I don't think the general public had knowledge of this particular piece of information but its certainly in the back of the audience' mind and assuming the public did have knowledge of the Joker then its safe to say they may have feared for their own lives if they were to press the button. It certainly seems logical that the Joker would tell the people that their detonator was for the other ship but in reality it was for their own ship- for the Joker to prove a point about human nature.</span></div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> That's a deep way of thinking Run, though it would have been nice for a person on the boat to mention this. I addressed the trigger concerns in the post above.</span> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As for the Joker in the hospital- <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>He wanted Dent to kill him because he believed it would have screwed with people's hope. Throughout the movie the Joker seems to be trying to rip down everything that people find hope in. He also generally shows that he doesn't care whether he lives or dies and actually would take pleasure in having Batman or Dent kill him and in doing so break their moral code not to kill. The Joker seemed to believe that having the golden boy, Harvey Dent kill him would "go against 'the plan'" and thus cause more chaos and, more importantly, it would have corrupted the public's white knight. The Joker knew Dent was emotional after Rachel died and he successfully convinced Dent that he was "just a dog" (a term and theme that comes up multiple times throughout the movie) and that Dent should really be mad at the "schemers". IMO this is an understandable explanation as to why Dent goes on the killing spree but not a very good one, as someone else mentioned before Dent's spiral wasn't that well done.</div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Ah I see what you mean now. You see it as a plausible, but not very good reason for Dent's killing spree. My opinion is that it is not even "understandable". How could the Joker convince Harvey that he's just a "dog"? He's wasting his breath. Just let Mr. Two-Face flip his coin and beg for luck. It is a huge leap of faith for Joker to even approach Harvey in that situation with suicidal tendencies, and with the superobjective (yes that is a real word ) of having Dent turn out to be a bigger villain. It seemed ridiculous to me for that to occur in such a short time span. If the Joker had been given more time (maybe weeks or months), to twist Dent's mind, then that would be a different story.</span> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>So in regard to Joker's "goal" that huevon referenced I think this scene did fit his goals. Hell even in this same scene he said hes not a guy with a plan, he just "does" stuff as it comes to him. His ultimate goal as I understand it is to destroy the public's hope, tear down the "heroes", and as Alfred said "some men just want to watch the world burn"- that line isn't in there by coincidence. The Joker repeatedly wanted to be killed by Batman just because he wanted Batman to go against his one rule (the "hit me part", he was laughing during the interrogation scene, and laughed as he was being thrown off the building). His goal isn't just to mess with Batman- its to keep pushing the public (and the heroes) to do something 'immoral' or just generally sinister. </span></div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> I think he just contradicted himself. If he really wants to cause the most damage, then he can't just offer himself on a platter for Dent without knowing the future beforehand. In fact I would say he made various elaborate plans during the movie, he didn't just blow stuff up.</span>
I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's). I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's). I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's). I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span> </div> When didn't he think things through, though?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's). I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span> </div> When didn't he think things through, though? </div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well I already mentioned Harvey in the Hospital, or his weird comment in the interrogation.</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's). I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span> </div> When didn't he think things through, though? </div> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well I already mentioned Harvey in the Hospital, or his weird comment in the interrogation.</span> </div> I don't think it was stupid so much as risky. He knew Harvey had the potential of becoming a monster of his own, as he was in just one big angry, irrational mess at the time. And he did what he thought he had to do. Of course it had enormous potential to backfire, but so do so many of the things he does. I'd equate it to him standing in the middle of the road as Batman was speeding straight at him.
