The Dark Knight

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
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When didn't he think things through, though?
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<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well I already mentioned Harvey in the Hospital, or his weird comment in the interrogation.</span>
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I don't think it was stupid so much as risky. He knew Harvey had the potential of becoming a monster of his own, as he was in just one big angry, irrational mess at the time. And he did what he thought he had to do. I'd equate it to him standing in the middle of the road as Batman was speeding straight at him.
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<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I don't really think anyone could know there was even potential for Harvey to turn into a monster. Maybe get back at the Joke and his crew, that's all. Not become "Two-face", some low class thug. </span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
</div>
When didn't he think things through, though?
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<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well I already mentioned Harvey in the Hospital, or his weird comment in the interrogation.</span>
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I don't think it was stupid so much as risky. He knew Harvey had the potential of becoming a monster of his own, as he was in just one big angry, irrational mess at the time. And he did what he thought he had to do. I'd equate it to him standing in the middle of the road as Batman was speeding straight at him.
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I don't really think anyone could know there was even potential for Harvey to turn into a monster. Maybe get back at the Joke and his crew, that's all. Not become "Two-face", some low class thug. </span>
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<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I disagree. I think his prior actions were specifically designed to get Harvey into that irrational/angry state, so that he could turn him into the opposite of what Batman/Gordon had intended. Like I mentioned earlier, he told Batman the wrong locations while in custody because he suspected that his feelings for Rachel would lead him to choose her. He ended up reaching the location in time to save her, but it was Harvey's instead of Rachel's, and Dent had to suffer through that tragedy. Dent was a bubbling mass of hate and despair in that hospital room and it was the Joker's visit that deflected that anger to the mob, the corrupt police, Batman/Gordon, and eventually society as a whole.

There was certainly an element of risk in the Joker's visit and Dent just as easily could've shot him there. But that element of risk was in every one of the Joker's actions. Its what made everyone consider him so crazy/scary in the first place.</span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
</div>
When didn't he think things through, though?
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well I already mentioned Harvey in the Hospital, or his weird comment in the interrogation.</span>
</div>
I don't think it was stupid so much as risky. He knew Harvey had the potential of becoming a monster of his own, as he was in just one big angry, irrational mess at the time. And he did what he thought he had to do. I'd equate it to him standing in the middle of the road as Batman was speeding straight at him.
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I don't really think anyone could know there was even potential for Harvey to turn into a monster. Maybe get back at the Joke and his crew, that's all. Not become "Two-face", some low class thug. </span>
</div>
I disagree. I think his prior actions were specifically designed to get Harvey into that irrational/angry state, so that he could turn him into the opposite of what Batman/Gordon had intended. Like I mentioned earlier, he told Batman the wrong locations while in custody because he suspected that his feelings for Rachel would lead him to choose her. He ended up reaching the location in time to save her, but it was Harvey's instead of Rachel's, and Dent had to suffer through that tragedy. Dent was a bubbling mass of hate and despair in that hospital room and it was the Joker's visit that deflected that anger to the mob, the corrupt police, Batman/Gordon, and eventually society as a whole.

There was certainly an element of risk in the Joker's visit and Dent just as easily could've shot him there. But that element of risk was in every one of the Joker's actions. Its what made everyone consider him so crazy/scary in the first place.

btw, how do you black it all out?
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Lol Chut. :] Just type [.spoiler][./spoiler] without the periods.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Normally I would agree with you that it is okay for the Joker to be irrational or what not. But in this particular movie, his illogical scenes made the flick stagnant. That little soliloquy to Two-Face was not believable at all to me, and the film's explanation on why Rachel wasn't also saved, seemed amorphous. </span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lol Chut. :] Just type [.spoiler][./spoiler] without the periods.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Normally I would agree with you that it is okay for the Joker to be irrational or what not. But in this particular movie, his illogical scenes made the flick stagnant. That little soliloquy to Two-Face was not believable at all to me, and the film's explanation on why Rachel wasn't also saved, seemed amorphous. </span></div>
Thanks man.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I can respect your opinion, I just don't think they were irrational. I think they were calculated risky actions that had an end goal in mind (to completely overturn the character of Harvey Dent). I loved that speech, as well as the one when he was hanging off the rope. You just wrestle with it so much the longer you think about it, because its so hard to pin down the Joker into one characterization. I think his entire plan was detailed and set out. The randomness/chaos arises when you try to consider his motives (why exactly did he want to do it?). And you also have to believe that he said what he thought would set off Harvey (the whole randomness speech led to a Two Face character obsessed with chance and duality).

I do agree with an earlier point you made that Two Face, as a character separate from Harvey Dent, was not given enough time. I loved the way they portrayed the change from Dent to Two Face, but his revenge spree did feel rushed. And that's exactly why I think a third movie would have to center around Two Face.</span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Run BJM @ Jul 31 2008, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I agree with Chutney/Nolan here. The Joker is just insane. He is tremendously calculated and yet at the same time he has no real objective. Like he said he just "does" things. Hes a guy you can analyze endlessly and yet there's almost nothing to analyze because he is such a maverick- you don't know where he came from, you don't really know what he wants, he doesn't care for his own life and certainly not for the lives of others. He is like Jaws in that he leaves everyone in terror and no one knows how to deal with him. You can't reason with a shark, he is completely untrackable so you can't find him unless hes attacking, and his attacks (while highly calculated) are random and largely unpredictable. He appears briefly to cause havoc but after that hes gone and no one can find him. This is a large part of why his character is so intriguing. Hes unique in that he has no motive, he doesn't want money, he doesn't want to take over Gotham, he doesn't care if hes killed, theres only one way to stop him and its breaking the single rule that Batman has.</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Oh yes, I understand why the Joker wants to mess up Harvey's mind and try to turn the "white knight" into a maniac. My issue was the manner in which the film tried to accomplish this. We mostly agree on everything in this movie.</span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lol Chut. :] Just type [.spoiler][./spoiler] without the periods.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Normally I would agree with you that it is okay for the Joker to be irrational or what not. But in this particular movie, his illogical scenes made the flick stagnant. That little soliloquy to Two-Face was not believable at all to me, and the film's explanation on why Rachel wasn't also saved, seemed amorphous. </span></div>
Thanks man.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I can respect your opinion, I just don't think they were irrational. I think they were calculated risky actions that had an end goal in mind (to completely overturn the character of Harvey Dent). I loved that speech, as well as the one when he was hanging off the rope. You just wrestle with it so much the longer you think about it, because its so hard to pin down the Joker into one characterization. I think his entire plan was detailed and set out. The randomness/chaos arises when you try to consider his motives (why exactly did he want to do it?). And you also have to believe that he said what he thought would set off Harvey (the whole randomness speech led to a Two Face character obsessed with chance and duality).

I do agree with an earlier point you made that Two Face, as a character separate from Harvey Dent, was not given enough time. I loved the way they portrayed the change from Dent to Two Face, but his revenge spree did feel rushed. And that's exactly why I think a third movie would have to center around Two Face.</span>
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<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Actually we concur on more things than you think. Like I told Run, going after Harvey is a crazy but understandable idea. It is the directing, writing, and timeline of the film that bothers me.</span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Dogs have a good sense of smell but they're not formidable opponents, they're more like a nuisance. I don't think they belonged at the end of an epic movie like this one.

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The dogs are not the "opponent". The Joker is the "opponent". The dogs are mere tools, that aid the Joker, buying time so that he can react to Batman if he shows up. The end of the movie turned out just at you would have expected, with Batman and the Joker facing off.
What did you expect? more bombs? The guy blew up half of Gotham and caused multiple traffic catastrophes. Sheesh!</span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Jul 31 2008, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Dogs have a good sense of smell but they're not formidable opponents, they're more like a nuisance. I don't think they belonged at the end of an epic movie like this one.

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<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The dogs are not the "opponent". The Joker is the "opponent". The dogs are mere tools, that aid the Joker, buying time so that he can react to Batman if he shows up. The end of the movie turned out just at you would have expected, with Batman and the Joker facing off.
What did you expect? more bombs? The guy blew up half of Gotham and caused multiple traffic catastrophes. Sheesh!</span>
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<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The end of the movie did not turn out as I expected. The last fight was not a great action scene nor was it that well written. For a 150+ million movie in its first weekend, I expected more.

Further, the dogs were indeed "opponents". You can refer to them as tools if you want, that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I thought the fight against the Joker at the end was a bit short as well, or just not as interesting as I would have hoped. What was I expecting? Well something more unique I suppose, you know how the Joker rolls.
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<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Dogs are most certainly formidable. Didn't you guys watch Stan Lee's "Who Wants To Be A Superhero - Season One?" Those dogs were hitting the contestants so hard that they were knocking them to the ground. Even though they had padding on, the pressure from the dogs biting was causing some real pain for the contestants. We know, from his discussion with Fox, that Batman gave up some protection for mobility with this suit. Still, Joker is the real foe. The dogs are just tool or weapon. A very effective weapon. (Someone made some really good points about the dog's blind loyalty and that their senses would give them an advantage in the dark.) Still, the biggest danger was what the Joker would do to Batman or someone else while Batman was dealing with the dogs. The Joker fights dirty. He doesn't mind kicking the Batman with a knife in his boot while Batman is engaged with one of his henchmen.</span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ Jul 31 2008, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Dogs are most certainly formidable. Didn't you guys watch Stan Lee's "Who Wants To Be A Superhero - Season One?" Those dogs were hitting the contestants so hard that they were knocking them to the ground. Even though they had padding on, the pressure from the dogs biting was causing some real pain for the contestants. We know, from his discussion with Fox, that Batman gave up some protection for mobility with this suit. Still, Joker is the real foe. The dogs are just tool or weapon. A very effective weapon. (Someone made some really good points about the dog's blind loyalty and that their senses would give them an advantage in the dark.) Still, the biggest danger was what the Joker would do to Batman or someone else while Batman was dealing with the dogs. The Joker fights dirty. He doesn't mind kicking the Batman with a knife in his boot while Batman is engaged with one of his henchmen.</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Formidable against Batman though? I remember that he gave up some protection, but he should still be able to dispose of them rather quickly, they're just a good distraction. I just would have tried to think of some other elaborate contraption or situation, to distract the Batman.</span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ Jul 31 2008, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Dogs are most certainly formidable. Didn't you guys watch Stan Lee's "Who Wants To Be A Superhero - Season One?" Those dogs were hitting the contestants so hard that they were knocking them to the ground. Even though they had padding on, the pressure from the dogs biting was causing some real pain for the contestants. We know, from his discussion with Fox, that Batman gave up some protection for mobility with this suit. Still, Joker is the real foe. The dogs are just tool or weapon. A very effective weapon. (Someone made some really good points about the dog's blind loyalty and that their senses would give them an advantage in the dark.) Still, the biggest danger was what the Joker would do to Batman or someone else while Batman was dealing with the dogs. The Joker fights dirty. He doesn't mind kicking the Batman with a knife in his boot while Batman is engaged with one of his henchmen.</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Formidable against Batman though? I remember that he gave up some protection, but he should still be able to dispose of them rather quickly, they're just a good distraction. I just would have tried to think of some other elaborate contraption or situation, to distract the Batman.</span>
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<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
He was just using them to buy a few seconds, he didn't expect them to defeat him. This gives him all the time he needs to do something like flee, pull out a gun, knife, detonator, and eat the last bite of his jelly donut before having to face Batguy. Batman can sneak up on people. With the dogs there, it's harder because of their keen senses. That's all I'm trying to say.
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<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>That last scene wasn't supposed to be a real fight. The Joker was just buying time and waiting for one of the ships to press the switch. It was another one of his calculated risks, except it was the only time in the movie that his plan completely backfired on him (the Gothamites weren't willing to go all the way like he wanted to prove).</span>

 

Just saw it now at the IMAX and it was amazing. I pretty much hate all superhero movies, but this was a great movie. Ledger was brilliant, so was Aaron Eckhart. Bale was mediocre.

 

That movie just blew my mind away. As in, best superhero movie ever. It was great. I loved it.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I loved how it didn't really end with a "happy ending," too. That was great.

And I love how they keep everything open - like, Scarecrow is out there, Harvey hasn't been pronounced dead, Joker's just being locked up.

And I like how they killed off the girl (as great an actress she was) - I didn't really expect that all too much, and it threw me off a bit.

And the beginning - wow, that was just great. Couldn't start a movie off any better.

There's just way too much good stuff to say about the movie - so many twists and turns, such great acting and story. Ledger was great, it actually got to the point where you thought he actually was insane in really life. And the way Eckhart went from good guy to bad guy, a complete transformation, as if he was playing two different roles in the same movie - that was great, he played that to a T.

Bale wasn't spectacular in this movie, he didn't really stand out...it seemed as if it was mainly the villains that stood out in this movie.

Shit, I could go on and on about this movie, it was so great... </span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>That last scene wasn't supposed to be a real fight. The Joker was just buying time and waiting for one of the ships to press the switch. It was another one of his calculated risks, except it was the only time in the movie that his plan completely backfired on him (the Gothamites weren't willing to go all the way like he wanted to prove).</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well Chutney, they could have still had a better fight though instead of revolving the last moments of the Joker on the fairy-tale boat situation. To me a pseudo-fight like that dilutes the franchise then. They wanted to save some stuff for the third movie, but they messed up this second one in the process.

And I'm not sure Bale really had much to go on in this movie, dialogue-wise. I wouldn't blame him for a sub-par performance (I don't believe that, just saying).
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Mamba @ Aug 1 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Bale's Batman, even in Begins, was never better than his Bruce Wayne, imo. I thought his voice was worse in this one than it was in Begins. However, I still think he did a brilliant job. Ledger and Eckhart just outshined him the whole film.

I don't know if it was answered because I was way to lazy to highlight all the black lines (are they still necessary the movie has been out for two full weeks now), but the dogs played a big role in the film, Huevon. Joker stated to the Eastern European mob member, in the scene where he burned the money, that he was going to cut him up and then feed him to his dogs, to see how loyal a hungry dog really is. The final scene of the film, you see the Joker. I think the dogs could be symbolic of Dent's downfall, if you want to stretch it. Dent was loyal to Gotham City (like the dogs to their master); but the Joker caused chaos (burning Dent/killing the master), and now the dogs are on Joker's side (like Dent was as Two-Face).

Oh wow...maybe I looked way too much into the symbolism of the dogs. I'm sobering up, so I think way too much in this state of mind. Haha ignore this post.</div>

I just want to clarify that I really did like this movie though, Mamba. I just wanted to discuss some issues.

 

Am I the only one who wanted to see a Joker squirt from the flower in his jacket?

Classy.