Good points guys, Baron was just immature back then. Well, I don't know him personally, but the rap on him is he was a prima donna. It's his way or the high way and it shows in his game and some of the things he says. Maybe he's gotten wiser and more mature since then (as it shows on the Warriors that he was a born again star), but I think parts of his mindset is that he wants to be spoiled and he has the talent to get his way with most franchises. That type of attitude just can't be a part of the Warriors organization when they have to rebuild like this. Do we want Ellis acting like this? They probably didn't match because they felt Ellis was not like Baron, but more like a Tony Parker type guy who can do his job and not worry that Tim Duncan is getting the spotlight or the coach is chewing him out. Here's some additional red flags when considering locking up our best player long term. 1.) 30 and injury prone the majority of his career 2.) Nelly is a lame duck coach unless he gets extended, we might have a Montgomery, Byron Scott situation where he undermines the team policies and leadership 3.) He vocally stated he wants to win a championship (maybe he thought him and Brand could do so) 4.) He started talking about money at a time when he should have been focusing on winning the games and making guys better. 5.) Benched during a critical game situation where he was allegedly hung over the night before and he couldn't wait until after the game to celebrate his birthday. Now c'mon we've all had to reschedule our own birthdays haven't we? 6.) He's been talking about going home since New Orleans and now he actually is home instead of north of home. 7.) He contemplated retiring from basketball while in New Orleans (both due to injury and losing the love for basketball since the New Orleans franchise was all he knew) 8.) Coaches didn't think of this guy as an all-star despite new career numbers. Maybe they feel that Baron isn't a true extension of the head coach as in he doesn't listen. Baron brought credibility to the franchise, but he wasn't alone. If we had carried without guys like Biedrins or Sjax (Barnes/Jrich last year), it'd be a different club similar to the Knicks maybe except without deadweight contracts. Baron would probably be comparable to where Marbury and Steve Francis are now. There's no room for aging, shoot first type of guys that rely on their athleticism and can't run a team properly. The guys who look to pass, can drive without forcing the issue, and can flat out shoot tend to stay around longer.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Jul 21 2008, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>With Baron, we went 0-6 until Steven Jackson came back from suspension. I know Davis is a better individual player than Jackson, but I wonder if Baron's role can be handed off with a minimal impact. This is a shoot-first, pass second team. There shouldn't be a lot of slow play development in the first place. In my own opinion, I think Nellie ball will survive here without Davis, but he will be dearly missed.</div> I agree it was a horrible start to the season, but Baron played very well during those games. He clearly was the best player during those games. I don't see how you can blame Davis for the 0 - 6 start. That said, the Warriors will suck this year and not make the playoffs again until we get a starting PG.
I actually think we can do decent this year. As long as we make sure we finish up with the signings of Beans and Monta I think we'll be ok. You never know what may happen. I wont say were a playoff team but you never know. I actually like the additions weve made in Mags, Turiaf, and Williams. Id rather add more quality players than 1 star. We do seem kind of loaded at te SG/SF positions so its interesting to see how things pan out. Do you guys think Mullys done? or is there even more money we can use to sign more or is that it?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (optedoutof17mil @ Jul 23 2008, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I actually think we can do decent this year. As long as we make sure we finish up with the signings of Beans and Monta I think we'll be ok. You never know what may happen. I wont say were a playoff team but you never know. I actually like the additions weve made in Mags, Turiaf, and Williams. Id rather add more quality players than 1 star. We do seem kind of loaded at te SG/SF positions so its interesting to see how things pan out. Do you guys think Mullys done? or is there even more money we can use to sign more or is that it?</div> There's no more money, if Mullin tries to get anyone else, even a cheap someone, we run the risk of not being able to match if another team makes a large offer to Biedrins or Monta. With all the talent Mullin's gathered and the fact that I don't think there will be enough minutes to go around for all the the backcourt guys who deserve playing time, I was hoping we could try to pull a Boston move and trade some young talent for a difference maker but I don't even see who we could package other than Al and maybe Beli. Maybe Jax but I think he's too valuable to include in a trade. I think this is the roster we'll see on opening day. I wonder if Al/Beli/2009 1st would be enough to get Okafor or Smith.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ryan @ Jul 23 2008, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (optedoutof17mil @ Jul 23 2008, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I actually think we can do decent this year. As long as we make sure we finish up with the signings of Beans and Monta I think we'll be ok. You never know what may happen. I wont say were a playoff team but you never know. I actually like the additions weve made in Mags, Turiaf, and Williams. Id rather add more quality players than 1 star. We do seem kind of loaded at te SG/SF positions so its interesting to see how things pan out. Do you guys think Mullys done? or is there even more money we can use to sign more or is that it?</div> There's no more money, if Mullin tries to get anyone else, even a cheap someone, we run the risk of not being able to match if another team makes a large offer to Biedrins or Monta. With all the talent Mullin's gathered and the fact that I don't think there will be enough minutes to go around for all the the backcourt guys who deserve playing time, I was hoping we could try to pull a Boston move and trade some young talent for a difference maker but I don't even see who we could package other than Al and maybe Beli. Maybe Jax but I think he's too valuable to include in a trade. I think this is the roster we'll see on opening day. I wonder if Al/Beli/2009 1st would be enough to get Okafor or Smith. </div> Well, there's money, it's just a matter of going over the cap or not. Don't think Cohan wants to do that. Al/Beli/2009 1st is TOO MUCH for Okafor or Smith. They're not really difference makers either, as you say. I think any interesting trades will come mid-season. You're right, this is probably the roster we're going to see on opening day.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 23 2008, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Al/Beli/2009 1st is TOO MUCH for Okafor or Smith. They're not really difference makers either, as you say. I think any interesting trades will come mid-season. You're right, this is probably the roster we're going to see on opening day.</div> Too much for Okafor? That guy is a franchise-type center, already in fours years has a career average of 14 points / 11 rebounds / 2 blocks and he's only 25 years old. That's TOTALLY worth Belly + a pick + Al Harrington (who in this trade is basically filler IMO). Belly hasn't shown any promise he'll be able to convert his game to the regular-season NBA (though I still think he will). Harrington is good but he's trade fodder IMO with Wright, Turiaf, Randolph and Hendrix all available at PF and Mags, Randolph and SJax all available at SF (and considering we will sign either Azu or Evans for SF minutes). A pick is a pick. Valuable, but common trade ammunition. Then there's Smith. He's good, and young, no doubt. Tons of potential. And solid stats with 17 points, 8 rebounds and almost 3 blocks (!) a game last year. But I agree with you, he's not a difference maker in that he's not a centerpiece to build on like Okafor is, IMO. Still, I'd make that trade, too. Even though With Mags, Jax, and Randolph it will be crowded at SF / PF. Is Smith more of a PF, though? Either way, I'd make that trade and live with sorting out the log jam later. Just too much talent to pass up on. IMO, both of those trades are great for GS but the other teams probably wouldn't even consider it...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlleyOop @ Jul 24 2008, 03:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 23 2008, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Al/Beli/2009 1st is TOO MUCH for Okafor or Smith. They're not really difference makers either, as you say. I think any interesting trades will come mid-season. You're right, this is probably the roster we're going to see on opening day.</div> Too much for Okafor? That guy is a franchise-type center, already in fours years has a career average of 14 points / 11 rebounds / 2 blocks and he's only 25 years old. That's TOTALLY worth Belly + a pick + Al Harrington (who in this trade is basically filler IMO). Belly hasn't shown any promise he'll be able to convert his game to the regular-season NBA (though I still think he will). Harrington is good but he's trade fodder IMO with Wright, Turiaf, Randolph and Hendrix all available at PF and Mags, Randolph and SJax all available at SF (and considering we will sign either Azu or Evans for SF minutes). A pick is a pick. Valuable, but common trade ammunition. Then there's Smith. He's good, and young, no doubt. Tons of potential. And solid stats with 17 points, 8 rebounds and almost 3 blocks (!) a game last year. But I agree with you, he's not a difference maker in that he's not a centerpiece to build on like Okafor is, IMO. Still, I'd make that trade, too. Even though With Mags, Jax, and Randolph it will be crowded at SF / PF. Is Smith more of a PF, though? Either way, I'd make that trade and live with sorting out the log jam later. Just too much talent to pass up on. IMO, both of those trades are great for GS but the other teams probably wouldn't even consider it... </div> Don't quote me on this, but if Al Harrington can be the PF for this team, I think Josh Smith could easily play PF for this team too. But I am not sure if Atlanta would be very interested in having Al Harrington back. But then again Josh Childress just ditched them (and the NBA) to play for some Greek team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlleyOop @ Jul 24 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 23 2008, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Al/Beli/2009 1st is TOO MUCH for Okafor or Smith. They're not really difference makers either, as you say. I think any interesting trades will come mid-season. You're right, this is probably the roster we're going to see on opening day.</div> Too much for Okafor? That guy is a franchise-type center, already in fours years has a career average of 14 points / 11 rebounds / 2 blocks and he's only 25 years old. That's TOTALLY worth Belly + a pick + Al Harrington (who in this trade is basically filler IMO). Belly hasn't shown any promise he'll be able to convert his game to the regular-season NBA (though I still think he will). Harrington is good but he's trade fodder IMO with Wright, Turiaf, Randolph and Hendrix all available at PF and Mags, Randolph and SJax all available at SF (and considering we will sign either Azu or Evans for SF minutes). A pick is a pick. Valuable, but common trade ammunition. Then there's Smith. He's good, and young, no doubt. Tons of potential. And solid stats with 17 points, 8 rebounds and almost 3 blocks (!) a game last year. But I agree with you, he's not a difference maker in that he's not a centerpiece to build on like Okafor is, IMO. Still, I'd make that trade, too. Even though With Mags, Jax, and Randolph it will be crowded at SF / PF. Is Smith more of a PF, though? Either way, I'd make that trade and live with sorting out the log jam later. Just too much talent to pass up on. IMO, both of those trades are great for GS but the other teams probably wouldn't even consider it... </div> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm high on Bellinelli, maybe to a fault -- I think he's going to find his niche with the team this year. I'm all for trading Harrington but not to add another PF/C. I'd want to trade him to offload his salary and/or package him (not Belli) for better talent than Okafor. Just quickly on Smith, now that we have Randolph, I am not so high on Smith - I don't think he's the right fit for the team. I think Okafor is an undersized center -- I'd rather have Biedrins there and I like Turiaf as our primary backup at C. If we put him at PF, which I can see, it would simply impede Wright's development -- Wright should be our future starting PF. Plus, we have Richard Hendrix. Yeah, I see your point about adding PROVEN players to the team, but I think the tapping the POTENTIAL of our young guys outweighs adding the players you've mentioned. Having too much talent is a good problem to have on a team, but I'm just not that impressed with Okafor, despite his solid numbers. I think dealing with a logjam at the PF and C positions is not good given we want to develop Wright and Hendrix unless the logjam is caused by say an Elton Brand. We already have a starting C in Beans and a backup in Turiaf. We can agree that Okafor is no backup. Can we agree we'd rather have Beans at C than Okafor? Hmm.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clif25 @ Jul 24 2008, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlleyOop @ Jul 24 2008, 03:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 23 2008, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Al/Beli/2009 1st is TOO MUCH for Okafor or Smith. They're not really difference makers either, as you say. I think any interesting trades will come mid-season. You're right, this is probably the roster we're going to see on opening day.</div> Too much for Okafor? That guy is a franchise-type center, already in fours years has a career average of 14 points / 11 rebounds / 2 blocks and he's only 25 years old. That's TOTALLY worth Belly + a pick + Al Harrington (who in this trade is basically filler IMO). Belly hasn't shown any promise he'll be able to convert his game to the regular-season NBA (though I still think he will). Harrington is good but he's trade fodder IMO with Wright, Turiaf, Randolph and Hendrix all available at PF and Mags, Randolph and SJax all available at SF (and considering we will sign either Azu or Evans for SF minutes). A pick is a pick. Valuable, but common trade ammunition. Then there's Smith. He's good, and young, no doubt. Tons of potential. And solid stats with 17 points, 8 rebounds and almost 3 blocks (!) a game last year. But I agree with you, he's not a difference maker in that he's not a centerpiece to build on like Okafor is, IMO. Still, I'd make that trade, too. Even though With Mags, Jax, and Randolph it will be crowded at SF / PF. Is Smith more of a PF, though? Either way, I'd make that trade and live with sorting out the log jam later. Just too much talent to pass up on. IMO, both of those trades are great for GS but the other teams probably wouldn't even consider it... </div> Don't quote me on this, but if Al Harrington can be the PF for this team, I think Josh Smith could easily play PF for this team too. But I am not sure if Atlanta would be very interested in having Al Harrington back. But then again Josh Childress just ditched them (and the NBA) to play for some Greek team. </div> I don't think there's an issue about Smith being able to play (whatever position) for this team. To me, it's more of an issue of PT conflicts. We already have Wright and Hendrix at PF and Randolph and Maggette at SF -- this should be our PF and SF rotation for the next few years. Whether it's Smith or Harrington, there's going to be some sort of conflict. This is why I say we need to dump Harrington for cash and/or future draft picks since there isn't talent that's out there that can help us unless it's a superstar, which we know we're not going to get at this point.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 24 2008, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think there's an issue about Smith being able to play (whatever position) for this team. To me, it's more of an issue of PT conflicts. We already have Wright and Hendrix at PF and Randolph and Maggette at SF -- this should be our PF and SF rotation for the next few years. Whether it's Smith or Harrington, there's going to be some sort of conflict. This is why I say we need to dump Harrington for cash and/or future draft picks since there isn't talent that's out there that can help us unless it's a superstar, which we know we're not going to get at this point.</div> I agree there are PT conflicts on this team but not at PF. There are 7 guys who shoudl play at the backcourt positions, not counting Watson. Rather than seeing Beli waste away on the bench, whick I can definately see happening, I'd like to get something for him at a position we could use. C is set with Beans and Turiaf but we are really weak at PF. Al should not be a starting PF IMO. If we just trade him away for cash as you suggest it leave a second year guy who has potential but I don't think he can be relied on for 30-36 minutes every game and Hendrix who was a second round pick. Yeah, it would be great if he can step in and contribute right away but I think there's a better chance that he plays under 100 minutes all season. You wouldn't trade away probably the 3rd or 4th perimeter off the bench who has a way too streaky shot and no D for an upgrade there? If it's just that you don't want to trade away Beli, can you think of anyone else who could yield a decent return with Al? I can't.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clif25 @ Jul 24 2008, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Don't quote me on this, but if Al Harrington can be the PF for this team, I think Josh Smith could easily play PF for this team too.</div> Sorry -- I had to quote you on this -- The difference between those two players is that Smith actually has POWER in his game. Smith's averaged 8.6 and 8.2 rebounds the last two years. Al is a career 5.8 rebounds per game. Smith is a career 2.5 blocks per game. He's averaged 2.9 and 2.8 blocks the last two years. AL is a career 0.2 blocks per game. Yes, ZERO point two. The last two years with GS it's been 0.3 and 0.2. Al Harrington blocks a shot once every FIVE games. Smith blocks three a night. Why? Al can barely get his flat feet off the ground. Dude's 6'9" and he can barely dunk. He gets swatted by PGs. He can shoot, oh yes, and he's crafty with his left hand. But just NO power in his game, despite his large mid-section. He's got small hands, skinny wrists, skinny ankles, a large waist, and NO hops. Smith, on the other hand, is a powerful, explosive player who will swat your best offensive player on one end and then dunk on your best defender on the other end. And he's the same height as Al at 6'9". It's just he weighs 235 instead of wearing the saddle of 250 that Al carries around. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just quickly on Smith, now that we have Randolph, I am not so high on Smith - I don't think he's the right fit for the team. I think Okafor is an undersized center -- I'd rather have Biedrins there and I like Turiaf as our primary backup at C. If we put him at PF, which I can see, it would simply impede Wright's development -- Wright should be our future starting PF. Plus, we have Richard Hendrix. We can agree that Okafor is no backup. Can we agree we'd rather have Beans at C than Okafor? Hmm.</div> Yeah, Kensaku, I agree with you that it would be an awkward fit. And Beans is one of my favorite players in the league. But i was just responding to that trade proposal of Al/Belli/pick for either Okafor or Smith. And in that regard, I don't care about fit or roster space or minutes or chemistry. Either one of those two trades are WAY too good to get picky about and pass up on. Shoot, I'd slide Okafor to PF and play him alongside Beans if I had too! Just make the trade and call me in the morning!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ryan @ Jul 24 2008, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 24 2008, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think there's an issue about Smith being able to play (whatever position) for this team. To me, it's more of an issue of PT conflicts. We already have Wright and Hendrix at PF and Randolph and Maggette at SF -- this should be our PF and SF rotation for the next few years. Whether it's Smith or Harrington, there's going to be some sort of conflict. This is why I say we need to dump Harrington for cash and/or future draft picks since there isn't talent that's out there that can help us unless it's a superstar, which we know we're not going to get at this point.</div> I agree there are PT conflicts on this team but not at PF. There are 7 guys who shoudl play at the backcourt positions, not counting Watson. Rather than seeing Beli waste away on the bench, whick I can definately see happening, I'd like to get something for him at a position we could use. C is set with Beans and Turiaf but we are really weak at PF. Al should not be a starting PF IMO. If we just trade him away for cash as you suggest it leave a second year guy who has potential but I don't think he can be relied on for 30-36 minutes every game and Hendrix who was a second round pick. Yeah, it would be great if he can step in and contribute right away but I think there's a better chance that he plays under 100 minutes all season. You wouldn't trade away probably the 3rd or 4th perimeter off the bench who has a way too streaky shot and no D for an upgrade there? If it's just that you don't want to trade away Beli, can you think of anyone else who could yield a decent return with Al? I can't. </div> I don't suggest we trade Harrington right away. I think it's important he's there in the beginning so we can hand hold the young guys into the bigger role. At which time Harrington will become disgruntled and demand a trade I got this all worked out in my head That's the thing with Bellinelli...like I said, I'm high on this guy. I think he's going to be the primary SG backup who'll get significant minutes this season.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlleyOop @ Jul 24 2008, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clif25 @ Jul 24 2008, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Don't quote me on this, but if Al Harrington can be the PF for this team, I think Josh Smith could easily play PF for this team too.</div> Sorry -- I had to quote you on this -- The difference between those two players is that Smith actually has POWER in his game. Smith's averaged 8.6 and 8.2 rebounds the last two years. Al is a career 5.8 rebounds per game. Smith is a career 2.5 blocks per game. He's averaged 2.9 and 2.8 blocks the last two years. AL is a career 0.2 blocks per game. Yes, ZERO point two. The last two years with GS it's been 0.3 and 0.2. Al Harrington blocks a shot once every FIVE games. Smith blocks three a night. Why? Al can barely get his flat feet off the ground. Dude's 6'9" and he can barely dunk. He gets swatted by PGs. He can shoot, oh yes, and he's crafty with his left hand. But just NO power in his game, despite his large mid-section. He's got small hands, skinny wrists, skinny ankles, a large waist, and NO hops. Smith, on the other hand, is a powerful, explosive player who will swat your best offensive player on one end and then dunk on your best defender on the other end. And he's the same height as Al at 6'9". It's just he weighs 235 instead of wearing the saddle of 250 that Al carries around. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just quickly on Smith, now that we have Randolph, I am not so high on Smith - I don't think he's the right fit for the team. I think Okafor is an undersized center -- I'd rather have Biedrins there and I like Turiaf as our primary backup at C. If we put him at PF, which I can see, it would simply impede Wright's development -- Wright should be our future starting PF. Plus, we have Richard Hendrix. We can agree that Okafor is no backup. Can we agree we'd rather have Beans at C than Okafor? Hmm.</div> Shoot, I'd slide Okafor to PF and play him alongside Beans if I had too! Just make the trade and call me in the morning! </div> Believe me, I was playing out the scenario in my head too.
